Angel Or Spike?

[white avenger]

No, not who loved Buffy the most, or who she loved the most. Something else.

Which vampire do you think benefited the most from their time with Buffy? Angel, from rat eating, alley dwelling, derelict blood sucker? Or Spike, from self proclaimed Big Bad and admitted Love's Bitch? Which one came the furthest toward being hero and champion in the 7 years of the show?

I would say (surprisingly) Angel. Before coming to Sunnydale, he was barely more than merely existing, in what would have to be the lowest level of unlife to which a vampire could sink. Homeless and no desire whatsoever to improve his lot. That's just about as low as I can imagine a vampire sinking.

One glance at a 16 year old girl sitting on the steps of a high school, and he has a purpose, a mission, a goal, the desire to be something better. Over the course of the two series, he goes from velvet sports coat, alley stalking, self appointed Slayer stalker to hero, defender of the helpless, and the vamp who defeated the Senior Partners and took over their Los Angeles law firm.

Impressive seems too small a word to describe the change.

 

[Robb Stark]

I think it's hard to really quantify. Buffy was huge for both of them. They both went from not doing a whole lot of anything (Angel merely existing, Spike actively killing people) helpful or worthwhile to both becoming bonafide, well, superheroes. They both save the world multiple times and I have no reservation in saying that none of that would have happened for either of them if it hadn't been for Buffy.

She made both of them better, made them both more than either of them ever thought they could be.

 

[EVIL UU]

One does not benefit from the time with Buffy. Both corpses were better off without her. Spike was happier with Dru and Angel, while miserable, was harmless. Buffy shows up, bodies start piling up again.

 

[iShower4free]

After the usual ignoring of some comments lol

I agree that Buffys presence definitely helped both Angel and Spike, but I think because of the quality of his life before meeting Buffy that Angel was helped more. Spike, although evil, was at least happy. There wasnt a good aspect of Angels life before he met Buffy.

 

[brinkster130]

Angel. He is happier having known Buffy; I really don't know that the same can be said for Spike.

 

[Tranquillity]

Spike benefited the most because he changed the most - he got the soul and changed sides and defeated the monster within.

Angel did benefit too, just the sight of her inspired him to get out of the ally and stop eating rats and try to be a better man but alas, his struggle with his inner demon still continues and so his association with Buffy was not as beneficial to him as it was to Spike.

 

[Blaze]

On an emotional level (meaning happiness), probably Angel, but as a general greater good type thing, I have to go with Spike. It was literally a 180 for Spike. Meeting Buffy actually made him change who he is while still being a soulless being, which can't be said about Angelus. Angel's transformation was literally 10 seconds of him seeing her and boom he was a changed man. He did benefit immensely from it, but I think it would still have been possible for him to meet Whistler and change without seeing Buffy. Buffy just helped him accomplish that way, way faster. As for Spike, I don't think he would have change for anyone other than Buffy. Sure he might have been happy with Dru, but the man he became by the end of s7 is simply a whole another level of transformation. To me, Angel went from being neutral to being good, while Spike went from being bad to good.

 

[Kean]

I don't know if you can quantify this. The how and why both vampires changed after knowing Buffy is very different.

For Angel, Buffy doesn't so much change him as she does inspire him to life. From knowing her, from loving her and most importantly, being loved by her, Angel found a self worth and sense of purpose he had never known, living or dead. Angel finds a valued self and he molds that self into a new man, a good man. Buffy doesn't do it for him, she just makes him feel like he can.

Spike is somewhat similar in this respect. However, Spike doesn't find his self worth in knowing Buffy, nor through loving her, instead he tries to create a worthwhile self whom she can love. That hasn't worked out for him. At any given point he is either trying to find a way to be with her or a way to get over her.

Both men have changed, though for me, Angel's change is much more satisfying because his journey was always about him and the person he wants to / should, be. It's a discovery of self, for self.

 

[Blaze]

I think it's also important to consider that Angel had 5 seasons on his own show without Buffy, so I feel like his journey would seem more about his self. Spike never had that opportunity to show who he is away from Buffy for an extended period of time (we had s5 on AtS, but there wasn't much development done there, even though we were able to see he was indeed a good man by that point). Having the character of Angel for 8 (3 with Buffy) years compared to 6 years for Spike (5 with Buffy) does make a difference on the way I see the impact Buffy has made. I think with Angel we can definitely see a better long term change, while Spike was all about transitioning.

. At any given point he is either trying to find a way to be with her or a way to get over her.

I'll have to disagee with that. To me in s7, Spike is neither trying to get with Buffy (and has accepted that she's not in love with him) nor is he trying to just forget about her. He makes its clear that he loves her but he isn't trying to fight the feelings anymore. Same with s5 Spike on AtS.

That being said, I agree with the fact that Angel's journey was more about himself than just Buffy. I really appreciate that storyline, because although Buffy did give him a kick in the butt to start his new life, I think he would have been able to achieve greatness for himself even without Buffy. His journey (at least from AtS s1 onward) was about himself, not about the man he wanted to become for Buffy. I think his reasons were quite more honorable than Spike's. Spike changed for all the wrong reasons (at first) but nonetheless reached a stage where it didn't matter how he got there, it's what he did with it after.

The fact that Angel changed partially for himself is another reason that I find Buffy had a bigger impact on Spike, because she was literally the cause of his journey and changes as a character.

 

[Kean]

I'll have to disagee with that. To me in s7, Spike is neither trying to get with Buffy (and has accepted that she's not in love with him) nor is he trying to just forget about her. He makes its clear that he loves her but he isn't trying to fight the feelings anymore. Same with s5 Spike on AtS.

I didn't make it clear in my post but I was speaking more to the most recent developments in Spike's arc in the comics.

The fact that Angel changed partially for himself is another reason that I find Buffy had a bigger impact on Spike, because she was literally the cause of his journey and changes as a character.

Ultimately it will come down to personal preference. I find a journey of self discovery initiated by your own self much more... substantial? I can't find the word I'm looking for, but if you are changing because of a need you personally feel pressing on yourself, I think that renders a truer change. A necessary change. To me, Spike has changed, and while it is ultimately for the better, at least in general terms, I don't feel like he is changing in the way that he personally needs. Again, I'm going off the most recent material we have i.e. the comics. I don't get the impression that Spike is fulfilled in any way, that's what I'm getting at.

 

[white avenger]

A person (or vampire) doesn't have to CHANGE in order to BENEFIT FROM knowing someone, which was the original question. When Angel first saw Buffy, he was at just about the absolute lowest point in his existence. One step lower would have been total oblivion, and he had been at that point for a considerable period of time according to him. Through his time spent with and inspired by Buffy, he not only became a self confident, assertive leader with a MUCH better wardrobe. None of that would have been possible without Buffy's love, support, and inspiration.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Oh no question Angel.

As Kean said all it took to inspire Angel was seeing her.

As we saw from the wishverse, even without actually meeting her he tried to do good.

Spike only did good to get in Buffys pants. it's only by 'Chosen' he decides to do good for the sake of being good, not because he's seeking Buffys approval. (The '"I love you", "No you dont" speech - he doesn't need her love as a reason to do good)

 

[NightLady]

The benefit thing depends on the point of view: those of the ones involved (Spike and Angel) and ours. But the question is about what we think, right? Not what Spike and Angel would say... so I go with Spike, all the way. I have not one little doubt on the subject and [MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION] explained the reasons very well!


P.s.

Spike only did good to get in Buffys pants.

I'm confused, so please refresh my memory: when exactly in the show did souled Spike try to 'get in Buffy's pants'?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm confused, so please refresh my memory: when exactly in the show did souled Spike try to 'get in Buffy's pants'?

I didn't say souled, In season 5 and 6 he was doing good to earn points with her.

When did he actually do good in season 7, he was mostly dealing with his own issues, he killed that demon in Get it Done, but that was becasue Buffy had basically accused him of being less of a man, so he did it to prove her wrong? I can't think of any other highlights till Chosen, and as I said I dont think that was to get in her pants, that was becasue he actually wanted to do good.

 

[NightLady]

I didn't say souled, In season 5 and 6 he was doing good to earn points with her.

True, you didn't say "˜souled' but you said that it wasn't up to Chosen (moreover, up to the final moment of the show) that as you said "he decides to do good for the sake of being good" and - apart from the fact that I don't genuinely understand where do you get this firm belief from "“ it was implied that you were talking also of the 21 episodes previous to Chosen, meaning also of souled Spike.

That's why I asked for a clarification about your "˜Spike only did good because he wanted to get in Buffy's pants'. I understand now that you were talking only of unsouled Spike so all is clear now 🙂 

When did he actually do good in season 7, he was mostly dealing with his own issues, he killed that demon in Get it Done, but that was becasue Buffy had basically accused him of being less of a man, so he did it to prove her wrong? I can't think of any other highlights till Chosen, and as I said I dont think that was to get in her pants, that was becasue he actually wanted to do good.

Sticking to season 7, don't you really remember the copious times Spike did something good? Saving Wood's life? Helping Buffy training the Potentials? Saving Anya's life? Helping Buffy saving Xander's life? Fighting with the others to prevent the Hellmouth's opening (I'm talking of Storyteller not of Chosen)?

I don't know if and how many demons Spike killed in the meanwhile, but I don't really care, because maybe I'm the only one to think so, but to me being/doing good is not about a body count. If it were I would have to question the goodness of a lot of the alleged good character... and come to the conclusion that unsouled Spike was really really good 😉

As for his killing in Get it done, Spike didn't kill the demon to prove anything to Buffy (she wasn't even there to "˜appreciate'). He did it because it was the only way to bring Buffy back from the other dimension.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

True, you didn't say "˜souled' but you said that it wasn't up to Chosen (moreover, up to the final moment of the show) that as you said "he decides to do good for the sake of being good" and - apart from the fact that I don't genuinely understand where do you get this firm belief from "“ it was implied that you were talking also of the 21 episodes previous to Chosen, meaning also of souled Spike.

That's why I asked for a clarification about your "˜Spike only did good because he wanted to get in Buffy's pants'. I understand now that you were talking only of unsouled Spike so all is clear now 🙂 




Sticking to season 7, don't you really remember the copious times Spike did something good? Saving Wood's life? Helping Buffy training the Potentials? Saving Anya's life? Helping Buffy saving Xander's life? Fighting with the others to prevent the Hellmouth's opening (I'm talking of Storyteller not of Chosen)?

I don't know if and how many demons Spike killed in the meanwhile, but I don't really care, because maybe I'm the only one to think so, but to me being/doing good is not about a body count. If it were I would have to question the goodness of a lot of the alleged good character... and come to the conclusion that unsouled Spike was really really good 😉

As for his killing in Get it done, Spike didn't kill the demon to prove anything to Buffy (she wasn't even there to "˜appreciate'). He did it because it was the only way to bring Buffy back from the other dimension.

Well I think it all comes down to personal belief on what you think of the Buffy/Spike relationship.

To me the entire point of the 'I love you, No you dont' thing was to show that Spike was now being a hero for the sake of being a hero, not to win points for Buffy. I believe she didn't love him, and I believe that he accepts that but still wants to do good.
Even after getting a soul, he comes back to Sunnydale, he doesn't go out into the world to fight evil, he goes back to show Buffy what he's accomplished, cuz for me up till Chosen it was all about Buffy.

If he was really good, he would have left when he was a threat in season 7, he could have removed himself and gone off to fight in the name of good, but he didn't want to do that, he wanted his being good to be for Buffy, not becasue of her.

During Chosen I see that change and that continues on Angel season 5, where he doesn't go running back, and continues in the comics were he isn't afraid to go off by himself, becasue he's not being her lapdog anymore - he still loves her, but he's going about it in a much much better way now.

 

[NightLady]

Well I think it all comes down to personal belief on what you think of the Buffy/Spike relationship.
To me the entire point of the 'I love you, No you dont' thing was to show that Spike was now being a hero for the sake of being a hero, not to win points for Buffy. I believe she didn't love him, and I believe that he accepts that but still wants to do good.
Even after getting a soul, he comes back to Sunnydale, he doesn't go out into the world to fight evil, he goes back to show Buffy what he's accomplished, cuz for me up till Chosen it was all about Buffy.
If he was really good, he would have left when he was a threat in season 7, he could have removed himself and gone off to fight in the name of good, but he didn't want to do that, he wanted his being good to be for Buffy, not becasue of her.
During Chosen I see that change and that continues on Angel season 5, where he doesn't go running back, and continues in the comics were he isn't afraid to go off by himself, becasue he's not being her lapdog anymore - he still loves her, but he's going about it in a much much better way now.

🙁 I don't understand what all this has to do with the argument of the topic or with what I said in my previous post. And as much as I appreciate a "good" (and hopefully fair) Spuffy debate, I don't think this is the place. Neither do I believe that every single topic should lead to the Spike/Buffy relationship, to the "˜did she love him or did she not' or the "˜was he a good man or was he a ruthless beast' arguments; even less that it should became the excuse to express ones likes or dislikes of the character. I enjoy the debates much more without all those.

So, seeing that we both answered the question of the topic and that to answer you, I should have to trot out Angel, and what he did or didn't compared to Spike (and I have a feeling that this would lead to much badness 😉), I think I'll pass on this one!

Anyway, thanks for the debate... I'll see you around 😛

 

[Black Eye Guy]

🙁 I don't understand what all this has to do with the argument of the topic or with what I said in my previous post. And as much as I appreciate a "good" (and hopefully fair) Spuffy debate, I don't think this is the place. Neither do I believe that every single topic should lead to the Spike/Buffy relationship, to the "˜did she love him or did she not' or the "˜was he a good man or was he a ruthless beast' arguments; even less that it should became the excuse to express ones likes or dislikes of the character. I enjoy the debates much more without all those.

So, seeing that we both answered the question of the topic and that to answer you, I should have to trot out Angel, and what he did or didn't compared to Spike (and I have a feeling that this would lead to much badness 😉), I think I'll pass on this one!

Anyway, thanks for the debate... I'll see you around 😛

I understand you have left the debate, but you completely misunderstood what I said.

I wasn't making it a Spike/Buffy debate. I said the entire point of the "I love you, no you dont" is proof me to that Spike had changed, to me the whole point of it being there was to show what he was doing it for. I'm not debating Spik/Buffy I'm using a moment from the show as a reason in my point of view, I understand not wanting to make every debate into a a relationship argument, but when your referring to a moment where the characters are referring to love the topic comes up a little bit in a perfectly valid reason.

 

[NightLady]

I understand you have left the debate, but you completely misunderstood what I said.

I wasn't making it a Spike/Buffy debate. I said the entire point of the "I love you, no you dont" is proof me to that Spike had changed, to me the whole point of it being there was to show what he was doing it for. I'm not debating Spik/Buffy I'm using a moment from the show as a reason in my point of view, I understand not wanting to make every debate into a a relationship argument, but when your referring to a moment where the characters are referring to love the topic comes up a little bit in a perfectly valid reason.

I may have misunderstood, of course. It happens so easily when ‘talking’ on the web and if this is the case, please accept my apologies. But (and I know that starting a phrase with a ‘but’ after apologising is not nice ^ ^), I had this feeling that in the end your goal was more to express your dislike for Spike than to actually share your thought on the topic (maybe for the ‘wanting to get in Buffy’s pants’ part? 😉) and as much as I’m willing to “draw my sword and defend Spike’s virtue” (LOL) I’m still a newbie here and need some more time to familiarize with the board and the other members.

Anyway, be assured... we shall meet again! :evilgrin0

Oops! And sorry for going OT!