Angel: Put on a Pedestal?

[Flannen]

I've been thinking recently about some of the recent discussion on some of Angel's actions. There's been some talk about him thinking he's 'god-like' and making decisions for others regardless of their own feelings.

And I'm sorry to name drop you, Joan, (but I don't think you'll mind, lol) but I noticed a karma comment you left on a post somewhere about having a higher moral ground for Angel (something along those lines) and this set to me to thinking...

Has Angel, as a character, been put on a pedestal? Has he had so much put upon him, by us the fans? Do we expect so much, or too much, from him that he can't ever quite attain to? Has the name of 'Champion' lead us to thinking he can never make a mistake and that when he does make those mistakes seem even more devastating they might have been had any other character made them?

To some extent I think that he has. It seems to be that Angel is not allowed to make mistakes. Or that whenever he does something that he thinks is right, he is persecuted for it, more so than other characters who make similar decisions are.

Or on the other hand, when Buffy herself makes mistakes, similar to Angel or otherwise, there is a frequent justification that she's the Slayer and it's always her call. This may be true, but isn't Angel kind of the male version of this on AtS? As the champion/leader doesn't he sometimes have to make the tough decisions and make a choice under pressure?

What do you guys think? Do you think Angel has been put on a pedestal and can never quite reach some of our expectations?

 

[Kana]

Well Angel's my favourite character but I never let him off the hook for any of the decisions but I have noticed that he does get a lot of flak sometimes.

I agree he does make decisions for people without their consent (the most notable I think is the W&H decision), but for the most part he does it with the best of intentions. I tend to look at intentions more than anything else, and Angel's actions are more noble than not.

The thing is though, I suppose I chime in with my criticisms of Angel not because I expect more but I like the representation of him as a 'human' hero. I see the existential journey, travelled over many miles, going against the tide. I struggles with the ideals of a champion because part of him feels as though he doesn't deserve to live in the world he's trying to fight for. So I actually don't expect anymore from him, but I think he expects more from himself and that's another reason I like him.

In my eyes he's always represented as a more morally ambiguous character in a more morally ambiguous world so it makes sense in some ways people will simply see him that way. I suppose it depends on what's important to you, as far as ethics and character traits are concerned. Some people just don't like Angel and some even found him sexist and of course this is going to have an effect on your opinions regarding his decisions.

 

[white avenger]

I guess I'm one of the main critics of Angel's, as as Flannen put it, "god-like" actions concerning the manipulation of other characters' lives without consulting them beforehand, so I will try to answer this. If I become repetitious of some of my arguments from previous threads, just bear with me.

Probably the most obvious examples of Angel making decisions for others, or that seriously effect others, without giving them any say in the matter, would be 1) his decision to leave Sunnydale in the first place, 2)being responsible for altering Buffy's memory of the events of "I Will Remember You," and 3) his decision to take control of Wolfram & Hart with the stipulation that all memory of Connor's actions, and his very origin, would be altered. We've beaten those sublects to death, with one group basically using the argument that the decisions were made for the good of the others involved, and not for any personal gain, while the other side defines his actions as at best making decisions for others, and at worst willfully and for (arguably) self gain, manipulating and stealing important memories from his closest friends, thus (again, arguably) betraying their trust in him.

Now, with those actions in mind, and speaking only for myself, I will say this: Whether for my own supposed good or the good of others, I have never liked having decisions made for me. That is something done for children or those who, for some reason, lack either the maturity, the intelligence, or the moral responsibility, or a combination of any or all, or is simply too selfish and self centered to be trusted to make what would be considered the "right" decision. And that, as far as I can see, is exactly what Angel does. His intentions may be only the best, totally unselfish, and always aimed toward the greater good as he sees it, but, in the end, it comes down to nothing more than making decisions for someone else without that person's knowledge, input or permission.

Now, in defense of Angel (Do you see how far I've fallen, Miss K? I'm once more defending Ol' Broodie.) he is depicted as a hero, and a hero's actions, whether right or wrong, should be heroic in proportion. If he sees something wrong, something that he believes will hurt his friends, family, or anyone else under his protection, he does whatever he can, within the limits of his power, to stop it from happening. Where you or I would pick up a piece of glass to keep someone else from stepping on it, he manipulates time in order to save the life of the woman he loves. We accept the minimal risk of cutting our own finger by picking up the broken glass, and Angel accepts the monumental responsibility of removing an entire day's happy memories from a woman who has far too much happiness in her life. The actions are basically the same, only the scale differs.

Robert Heinlein, in the novel "Glory Road" said "Knights errant spend their nights erring," and that's exactly what Angel is. A knight errant. A hero with a mission, with great powers and even greater responsibilities. He is a man who genuinely cares about his virtual "family," and about all of mankind. He sees his mission as being a protector, and he tries to fulfill that mission to the best of his ability, even to the point of overstepping his authority. Everything, well, ALMOST everything, that Angel does, he does for what he sees as the greater good. Sometimes he takes the wrong actions for the right reasons. But he keeps on trying.

That still doesn't mean that I have to like him meddling with other people's minds, it's just that I can understand why the character is written that way. It's one of the flaws that keeps Angel from being that "god-like" being that we started with at the beginning of this thread.

(But Buffy still loves Spike the most)

 

[Flannen]

I guess I'm one of the main critics of Angel's, as as Flannen put it, "god-like" actions concerning the manipulation of other characters' lives without consulting them beforehand, so I will try to answer this. If I become repetitious of some of my arguments from previous threads, just bear with me.

Probably the most obvious examples of Angel making decisions for others, or that seriously effect others, without giving them any say in the matter, would be 1) his decision to leave Sunnydale in the first place, 2)being responsible for altering Buffy's memory of the events of "I Will Remember You," and 3) his decision to take control of Wolfram & Hart with the stipulation that all memory of Connor's actions, and his very origin, would be altered. We've beaten those sublects to death, with one group basically using the argument that the decisions were made for the good of the others involved, and not for any personal gain, while the other side defines his actions as at best making decisions for others, and at worst willfully and for (arguably) self gain, manipulating and stealing important memories from his closest friends, thus (again, arguably) betraying their trust in him.

Now, with those actions in mind, and speaking only for myself, I will say this: Whether for my own supposed good or the good of others, I have never liked having decisions made for me. That is something done for children or those who, for some reason, lack either the maturity, the intelligence, or the moral responsibility, or a combination of any or all, or is simply too selfish and self centered to be trusted to make what would be considered the "right" decision. And that, as far as I can see, is exactly what Angel does. His intentions may be only the best, totally unselfish, and always aimed toward the greater good as he sees it, but, in the end, it comes down to nothing more than making decisions for someone else without that person's knowledge, input or permission.

Now, in defense of Angel (Do you see how far I've fallen, Miss K? I'm once more defending Ol' Broodie.) he is depicted as a hero, and a hero's actions, whether right or wrong, should be heroic in proportion. If he sees something wrong, something that he believes will hurt his friends, family, or anyone else under his protection, he does whatever he can, within the limits of his power, to stop it from happening. Where you or I would pick up a piece of glass to keep someone else from stepping on it, he manipulates time in order to save the life of the woman he loves. We accept the minimal risk of cutting our own finger by picking up the broken glass, and Angel accepts the monumental responsibility of removing an entire day's happy memories from a woman who has far too much happiness in her life. The actions are basically the same, only the scale differs.

Robert Heinlein, in the novel "Glory Road" said "Knights errant spend their nights erring," and that's exactly what Angel is. A knight errant. A hero with a mission, with great powers and even greater responsibilities. He is a man who genuinely cares about his virtual "family," and about all of mankind. He sees his mission as being a protector, and he tries to fulfill that mission to the best of his ability, even to the point of overstepping his authority. Everything, well, ALMOST everything, that Angel does, he does for what he sees as the greater good. Sometimes he takes the wrong actions for the right reasons. But he keeps on trying.

That still doesn't mean that I have to like him meddling with other people's minds, it's just that I can understand why the character is written that way. It's one of the flaws that keeps Angel from being that "god-like" being that we started with at the beginning of this thread.

Of course, you don't have to like that he does those things. I do like your post though. I think you've taken the time to consider both sides and acknowledge some kind of feeling that Angel largely acts in the way he does with the best of intentions.

But, and this might be me, I can't work out if you think he's put on a pedestal? I do apologise if you did make a comment about it, I may well have just missed it.

(But Buffy still loves Spike the most)

And just because I always get pulled up on making 'irrelevant' comments like this, I'm going to have to ask: what does this comment have to do with anything in this thread? 😛

For once I tried to make a thread that was about Angel and Angel only, with no 'ship arguments being bought in! *SIGH* At least I tried...

 

[white avenger]

But, and this might be me, I can't work out if you think he's put on a pedestal? I do apologise if you did make a comment about it, I may well have just missed it.



And just because I always get pulled up on making 'irrelevant' comments like this, I'm going to have to ask: what does this comment have to do with anything in this thread? 😛

For once I tried to make a thread that was about Angel and Angel only, with no 'ship arguments being bought in! *SIGH* At least I tried...

(Sorry, I sometimes get so involved with my own rhetoric that I lose track of the main point of the thread. So...)

Yes, some fans do tend to put Angel up on a pedestal, but, as I have pointed out, and Joss, by the way, agrees with me, Angel is the stuff of legends. The tall dark, broodie hero, tortured by an unsavory past, reformed by the love of a beautiful woman, doomed forever to struggle in an attempt to redeem himself. Harlequin Romance novels have been making a fortune off of characters of this ilk for decades. The character has taken almost god-like proportions. So, yes, atop a pedestal is exactly where some fans see Angel.

And as for the observation as to who the lady in question really loves the most, that was just an attempt to inject a little humor into an otherwise too serious post. If I'm the only one to appreciate it in that context, I guess it wasn't really that funny. But no attempt was intentionally made to hijack your thread.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

You know mine opinion about Angel's actions. He is not perfect. Nobody is. He has done some things that we don't like, but I think he did pretty good things. Things we accept. I know some people have problem with IWRY, about him turning back time. I'm sad about that, but I get it. I mean I get why he did that. I love Angel, but I know he is not perfect. But things I don't accept, I try to understand them. I do that for every character.

 

[Flannen]

(Sorry, I sometimes get so involved with my own rhetoric that I lose track of the main point of the thread. So...)

Yes, some fans do tend to put Angel up on a pedestal, but, as I have pointed out, and Joss, by the way, agrees with me, Angel is the stuff of legends. The tall dark, broodie hero, tortured by an unsavory past, reformed by the love of a beautiful woman, doomed forever to struggle in an attempt to redeem himself. Harlequin Romance novels have been making a fortune off of characters of this ilk for decades. The character has taken almost god-like proportions. So, yes, atop a pedestal is exactly where some fans see Angel.

Hehe, no worries. We can all get off track sometimes, I was more making sure I hadn't missed it.

I see what you mean about the 'type' of character Angel is. He's kind of got that Heathcliff thing going...even though I don't like Heathcliff and he's much more an ass...I digress.
Do you think that some fans see him that way because of his leader/Champion type role? That's one thing I'm trying to determine and for myself too. Because when I thought about this thread, I thought about how much Buffy annoys me sometimes and began to wonder if that's because I've put HER on a pedestal too...I'm still pondering it.

And as for the observation as to who the lady in question really loves the most, that was just an attempt to inject a little humor into an otherwise too serious post. If I'm the only one to appreciate it in that context, I guess it wasn't really that funny. But no attempt was intentionally made to hijack your thread.

No, I didn't think you were hijacking the thread. I could just see it being something that spurned another 'debate'! I was mainly joking...mainly. 😛

 

[Willow-Tree]

Moreso than the fans, I think it was the writers that put Angel on his so-called pedestal. The point of Angel: the Series was Angel seeking redemption, and atoning his past sins. The writers made such a big deal about how he was on this epic quest, and all his mistakes were behind him.

That said, he often did make mistakes, and since we were led to believe that was so wrong for him to do, we were a bit angry.

 

[white avenger]

In both Angel and Buffy, Joss, either through genius or sheer dumb luck, created characters who could be heroes, but still be capable of making mistakes, sometimes with tragic results. Who could be both magnanimous and selfish, understanding and prejudiced. He made heroes with hearts of gold and feet of pure lead. In short, Joss created characters who were both heroes and human. We usually see the former and miss the latter, but they are both there. It's very easy to deify characters like that.

 

[Flannen]

I see what you're saying, but like I've said so many times before, you don't HAVE to go with everything that the writers say. Obviously you can do, just as much I can choose to do otherwise.

But personally, I don't see him as being put on the quest that he was as putting him on a pedestal so much. I think it comes more from the fans and interpretation...

 

[Revolver]

I definitely don't place him on a pedestal. I disagree with him and/or his actions quite regularly.

 

[Tranquillity]

I love Angel - but it is not because of his God-like, untouchable heroic nature - It's because his whole life is a litany of one mistake after the other. Angel is so god-damned flawed that you can't help but feel for the guy. I think some fans do put him on a pedistal - they make all kinds of excuses for him, can rationalise his every action as 'heroic' which lets him get away with anything and everything just because his intentions were (sometimes) good. There is a old saying that goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions... Angel, despite everything inspires undeniable loyalty in his team. They love him, follow him to the death but are not afraid to point out his faults when needs be - he doesn't always listen but hey, his overbearing Angel-knows-best attitude is part of his character. To not recognise his faults and well as his strengths does him a great diservice.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Do you think Angel has been put on a pedestal and can never quite reach some of our expectations?

First off? Yes. Absolutely. We always hold our heroes up to a high standard. Only then can they fall. Because they're only human and not perfect (Well, Angel's not, but you know what I mean). This is why Angel is in my opinion, a tragic hero.

Secondly, This is a great discussion question you've brought up, Flannen. *high fives*

OK: Well, first of all, I'd like to go a bit off-topic about S8 and attempt to relate my answer to this:

Basically, as to who Twilight is - I had this epiphany today; It's Angel. I know it is. I can feel it. Why? Because it's exactly that we'd never think Joss would do. We like to think of Angel and Angelus as being two seperate people, when really, Angelus is a part of him, his alter ego, his doppleganger, whatever. Maybe making Angel evil would be a way for Joss to finally stress the blurring lines that Angel has been struggling with this whole time (fighting off his 'darkside').

BUT...what if Joss made Angel evil? Made him Twilight? It's a crazy thought I know...but it would be EPIC.

So, what if Twilight is Angel, being controlled by the PTB, doing his part for the Shanshu Prophecy? We all know that he plays a major role in THE apocalypse, and we know he will fight against good. Perhaps this is THAT apocalypse and this IS Angel's final battle where his reward will be, of course, to be made human as he was promised.

What do you all think of this?

That would be a sick twist, to pair Buffy and Angel once again against each other, but I wouldn't put it past Joss. It would be epic. What would make it even more interesting would be to see Angel (NOT Angelus) fighting against her.

How I relate this to your question is Flannen - perhaps Joss knows that we the fans have, in a way, put Angel unto a pedestal, because the writers have. I mean, he's called the 'Champion'! That's a big title. Almost like 'Slayer.' I think that yes, we do expect him to be perfect, as he is the hero. The paradox here is that we also want our heroes to have human qualites and to make mistakes - that's how we can relate to them.

And in terms of Buffy, there are many fans who are quite judgemental of some decisions she had made. While yes, Angel and Buffy do fill the same role in their own shows, I think Angel is held up to a higher standard because he is older, sopposably wiser, male, and super-human (well, Buffy is too because she is a Slayer, I guess).

Disclaimer: Now yes, before you all freak on me, I am aware I just made an extremely sexist statement.

 

[Flannen]

I love Angel - but it is not because of his God-like, untouchable heroic nature - It's because his whole life is a litany of one mistake after the other. Angel is so god-damned flawed that you can't help but feel for the guy. I think some fans do put him on a pedistal - they make all kinds of excuses for him, can rationalise his every action as 'heroic' which lets him get away with anything and everything just because his intentions were (sometimes) good. There is a old saying that goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions... Angel, despite everything inspires undeniable loyalty in his team. They love him, follow him to the death but are not afraid to point out his faults when needs be - he doesn't always listen but hey, his overbearing Angel-knows-best attitude is part of his character. To not recognise his faults and well as his strengths does him a great diservice.

I do like what you're saying here, but I find it really interesting how you related to the term 'pedestal.' You've connected it to how some fans justify his mistakes and try to make something heroic out of them, but I meant it and used it to describe the fans who might not necessarily like Angel, but think that because of who he is; The Champion, he shouldn't make these mistakes.

I'm not saying you're wrong by the way, it's just an observation of how we've each used pedestal.

I'm happy to admit that I will justify Angel's actions (if I think there is any justification) and try to understand why he did it/them. But I don't think is because I have him on a pedestal, I think it's because I DON'T. My theory is that it is the people who don't/won't/can't (and I've honestly not got anyone in mind here lol) do that, that have him on the pedestal? Does that make sense?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Well, with that in mind, perhaps then I'm not the best person to be judging Angel, or attempting to determine if I do put him on a pedestal, because I do love his charactet quite a bit. He take the place after Spike and Buffy in my favorite character slot.

But, I do admit I hold him to a higher standard because of my admiration of him. I'm his biggest fan AND his harshest critic. I expect him to live up to what his character has become, just as I do Buffy. He should know by now how and when to make the right decisions.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Anyone who thinks Angel's infallible hasn't been paying attention. For good stretches of the show his worldview has been defined by pessimism...

ANGEL
You want to know what my problem is? I'm screwed. That's my problem. I can't win. I'm trying to atone for a hundred years of unthinkable evil. News flash! I never can! Never going to be enough. Now I got Wolfram and Hart dogging me, it's too much! Two hundred highly intelligent law-school graduates working full-time to drive me crazy. Why the hell is everyone so surprised that it's working? But no, it's 'Angel, why are you so cranky?' 'Angel, you should lighten up. You should smile. You should wear a nice plaid.'

ANGEL
I never escaped from hell. All I got was a short reprieve. Not even sure how I managed that.

SPIKE
Oh, put your martyr away, Mahatma. Fred told me all about your great, shining prophecy. Pile up all your good deeds and get the big brass ring handed to you like everything else.

ANGEL
(turns to face Spike)
Except for one small catch. The prophecy's a bunch of bull. They all are. Nothing's written in stone or fated to happen, Spike. You save the world, you end up running an evil law firm.

SPIKE
Or playin' Casper with one foot in the fryer.

ANGEL
(walks close around Spike, whispering in his ear)
You think any of it matters? The things we did? The lives we destroyed. That's all that's ever gonna count. So, yeah, surprise. You're going to hell. We both are.
(sits on couch)

SPIKE
Then why even bother?
(scoffs)
Try to do the right thing, make a difference...

ANGEL
What else are we gonna do?

SPIKE
So that's it, then. I really am going to burn.

ANGEL
Welcome to the club.

 

[hannahfngrl26]

I really just feel like Angel had such a tremendous cross to bear when he got resouled that he will always be trying to do the right thing really just in an effort to be able to move forward. I will say that I totally love how Spike just went crazy for a few weeks and then he was pretty much back to normal. I loved when Angel brings it up all pissed.