Angel: Redemption, Destiny, Disallusionment, and the Powers that Be

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

****Spoilers for the latest Season 8 Issue*****

you've been warned!









This question sort of relates to Angel's journey in general, but it's more regarding the recent Twilight reveal. I've been racking my brains for a reason to why Angel would do this, and the more I think about it, the more questions I have; how could the Powers that Be allow it to happen? Where is Cordy? Ghost!Wes? Spike? Has Angel lost sight of his mission? Has he given up on his redemption he's fought for for so long? Is his future with Buffy? Who is he now? What happened to him in the last two years between AtS ATF and Buffy Season 8?

While pondering Angel's development as a character, I was reminded of this scene:

KATE: I feel like such an idiot.

ANGEL: A lot of that going around.

KATE: I just couldn't... My whole life has been about being a cop. If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything.

ANGEL: It doesn't.

KATE: Doesn't what?

ANGEL: Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win.

KATE: You seem kind of chipper about that.

ANGEL: Well, I guess I kinda worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward, finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it.

KATE: And now you do?

ANGEL: Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.

KATE: Yikes. It sounds like you had an epiphany.

ANGEL: I keep saying that. But nobody's listening.

KATE: Well, I'm pretty much convinced, since I'm alive to be convinced.

ANGEL: You know you don't have to be a cop to be...

KATE: I'm okay. Anyway, I'm *not* headed towards another pillathon. - I'm very grateful. I never thought you'd come for me, but... I got cut a huge break and I believe... I don't know what I believe, but I have faith. I think maybe we're not alone in this.

ANGEL: Why?

KATE: Because I never invited you in.

My question is; do you think Angel still believes what he said in this scene? If not, what has changed? Those two years between the end of ATF and when he becomes Twilight must have done something so terrible to him that he gave up on all he believed - any theories as to what happened?

Also, who do you think Kate is referring to when she says "I think maybe we're not alone in this"? The The Powers that Be? God? At this point, there's no indication that she knows about the Powers that Be, Angel hasn't told her. Do you think Kate thinks God saved her in that moment, by allowing Angel an invitation into her apartment? Who could have the power to do that expect the Powers that Be?

Also, if the PTB care so much about Angel (after all, they did bring him back from the Hell demenison) wouldn't they have interfered with what he's been doing as Twilight? ...or, do you think that's WHY they brought him back in the first place; to fulfill his eventual "destiny" of becoming Twilight? Do you think Angel has finally been completely and irretrievably corrupted? Or do you think it will come out that he is being "controlled" in some way by a force greater than himself?

I'm so confused. *frowns*

Thoughts in general or specific?

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Love the question!

how could the Powers that Be allow it to happen?

I think they would. Angel left them in the first place because they allowed Cordy to be raped, mentally and literally, without a peep to Angel.

I think by the end of S5, Angel viewed them as a useful resource, but far from being perfectly good.

Where is Cordy? Spike?

That's the big question. Cordy broke into helLA in AtF to come to Angel's side...

Ghost!Wes?

Eh, his absence is believable, as Angel and W&H said the final price for killing the Circle of the Black Thorn was losing Wesley.

Has Angel lost sight of his mission? Has he given up on his redemption he's fought for for so long? Is his future with Buffy? Who is he now? What happened to him in the last two years between AtS ATF and Buffy Season 8?

I get the feeling that the next two issues will answer this. If not this series is hopeless...

do you think Angel still believes what he said in this scene? If not, what has changed?

No. In AtF he actually got to see the final Apocalypse, and Cordy & Wes confirmed the vision to him (with authority from TPTB & W&H respectively), he believes in destiny. His speech in the most recent issue of BS8 confirms that as well.

Those two years between the end of ATF and when he becomes Twilight must have done something so terrible to him that he gave up on all he believed - any theories as to what happened?

As it stands, the only canon-reason we have would be Angel's vision of himself decapitating seemingly hundreds of people during the apocalypse.

Connor dying or something to do with Doyle are the only things I can think of that would push Angel over the edge.

Also, who do you think Kate is referring to when she says "I think maybe we're not alone in this"? The The Powers that Be? God? At this point, there's no indication that she knows about the Powers that Be, Angel hasn't told her. Do you think Kate thinks God saved her in that moment, by allowing Angel an invitation into her apartment? Who could have the power to do that expect the Powers that Be?

The most simple answer is that her heart had stopped beating, which would instantly let Angel in.

Also, if the PTB care so much about Angel (after all, they did bring him back from the Hell demenison) wouldn't they have interfered with what he's been doing as Twilight? ...or, do you think that's WHY they brought him back in the first place; to fulfill his eventual "destiny" of becoming Twilight? Do you think Angel has finally been completely and irretrievably corrupted? Or do you think it will come out that he is being "controlled" in some way by a force greater than himself?

I'm so confused. *frowns*

Thoughts in general or specific?

In general, I think it'll wind up being relatively straightforward that a higher power warned Angel of the coming Apocalypse, and craziness ensued.

I can't wait for the next two issues as they're going to make or break my opinion of Joss. Especially since I can't think of a scenario that will redeem my favorite heroes...

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

If what I hear is true and Angel has to fulfill the Shanshu prophecy by fighting on the side of evil and he is in fact fighting on the side of evil, then it makes some sense but that probably isn't the whole story. There was a line about a different plane that piqued my interest. ("It could never be as simple as you hoped, not on this plane." That could be some sort of misdirection or something. lol I dunno. It's too early. =\)


One thing I know for sure is that I hope it all turns out to be worth reading though!

 

[white avenger]

I think that I have to agree with Miss K here. The one most definite thing that we know at the moment is that we know next to nothing at the moment. I do believe that Joss has some evil, diabolical plan in mind for the season finale, something truly shocking that is going to make the Twilight reveal fade into insignificance. I have a couple of suspicions, but they are based on what Joss has done in the past, rather in any way related to anything that we have seen so far in Season 8. (just be aware that if if what I think is gonna happen happens, you didn't hear it here first)

 

[Anya2012]

****Spoilers for the latest Season 8 Issue*****

you've been warned!









This question sort of relates to Angel's journey in general, but it's more regarding the recent Twilight reveal. I've been racking my brains for a reason to why Angel would do this, and the more I think about it, the more questions I have; how could the Powers that Be allow it to happen? Where is Cordy? Ghost!Wes? Spike? Has Angel lost sight of his mission? Has he given up on his redemption he's fought for for so long? Is his future with Buffy? Who is he now? What happened to him in the last two years between AtS ATF and Buffy Season 8?

While pondering Angel's development as a character, I was reminded of this scene:



My question is; do you think Angel still believes what he said in this scene? If not, what has changed? Those two years between the end of ATF and when he becomes Twilight must have done something so terrible to him that he gave up on all he believed - any theories as to what happened?

Also, who do you think Kate is referring to when she says "I think maybe we're not alone in this"? The The Powers that Be? God? At this point, there's no indication that she knows about the Powers that Be, Angel hasn't told her. Do you think Kate thinks God saved her in that moment, by allowing Angel an invitation into her apartment? Who could have the power to do that expect the Powers that Be?

Also, if the PTB care so much about Angel (after all, they did bring him back from the Hell demenison) wouldn't they have interfered with what he's been doing as Twilight? ...or, do you think that's WHY they brought him back in the first place; to fulfill his eventual "destiny" of becoming Twilight? Do you think Angel has finally been completely and irretrievably corrupted? Or do you think it will come out that he is being "controlled" in some way by a force greater than himself?

I'm so confused. *frowns*

Thoughts in general or specific?

Perhaps this what the PTB had planned all along to finally corrupt Angel? But why???

 

[LadyLavinia]

What is so great about Angel achieving Shanshu? I mean . . . honestly? What is the big deal? He becomes a human . . . and then what? He's going to be on the side of good forever? I rather doubt it. Everyone is always tempted to sway one way or the other for the rest of their lives.

What if he returns to being the very human being he was before Darla turned him? Then what? The guy was an extremely unpleasant human being?

Perhaps this what the PTB had planned all along to finally corrupt Angel? But why?

What if Angel became corrupted on his own, without anyone's help? He's done it before.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

What is so great about Angel achieving Shanshu? I mean . . . honestly? What is the big deal? He becomes a human . . . and then what?

Angel doesn't like being a vampire. He doesn't like being unhappy (which is kind of a requirement). He doesn't like being disallowed to have sex with a woman he's in love with. He doesn't like the idea of his friends, lovers, and son eventually lapping him in age.

As Angel said, the thing he really loved about being a vampire was the art of evil itself. Assuming him being human wouldn't screw over others, he'd love to go that route.

Spike on the other hand, I tend to think likes who he is as of 2004. His only disability is the whole sunlight thing. And based on what we've seen, he spends about as much time in the daylight now as he did as a human. Plus he's not a eunuch like Angel...

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Angel doesn't like being a vampire. He doesn't like being unhappy (which is kind of a requirement). He doesn't like being disallowed to have sex with a woman he's in love with. He doesn't like the idea of his friends, lovers, and son eventually lapping him in age.

Well, he's obviously no longer concerned with losing his soul anymore - as sleeping with Buffy in the latest issue suggests. He obviously assumes that being invulnerable also equals the inability to lose his soul - or he simply doesn't care, like with Darla before.

I totally agree about Spike. I'd venture to say he loves being a vampire. He never had the "issues" that Angel had with it. Why wouldn't he love it? Girls think he's sexy because of it, he's strong and forever young. As a human, he paled in comparison to his vampire self.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

What if Angel became corrupted on his own, without anyone's help? He's done it before.

When? Are you talking about Angel season 2? Wolfram and Hart was manipulating him into it.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Here's an interesting response Georges Jeanty just gave in a Q&A:

Q: Who would you blame Twilight's actions on? Angel, Buffy or a third party?

A: How about this for an answer: an older party?

---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 PM ----------

Buffyverse Fan agrees: You back on alt!future!Angel, Andrew? Personally I hope so...

No, I just think "Twilight" (Angel in a mask with superpowers) has been manipulated by "Twilight" (ancient mystical force from the dawn of time), and that Twilight-B is the real Big Bad here.

Still not sure if it's a force of balancing light and darkness, or of ending light, though. "Twilight" could refer to either.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I just think "Twilight" (Angel in a mask with superpowers) has been manipulated by "Twilight" (ancient mystical force from the dawn of time), and that Twilight-B is the real Big Bad here.

Still not sure if it's a force of balancing light and darkness, or of ending light, though. "Twilight" could refer to either.

Don't you think Angel (and now Buffy) are going to come off as certifiably inept if this is the case?

I mean, Angel especially! Manipulated by the First in BS3, Jasmine throughout the entire series until AS5, and then again slowly corrupted by W&H in AS5 until You're Welcome, now a 4th higher force turning Angel's head around?

That would really just make a joke out of his character...

 

[white avenger]

What is so great about Angel achieving Shanshu? I mean . . . honestly? What is the big deal? He becomes a human . . . and then what? He's going to be on the side of good forever? I rather doubt it. Everyone is always tempted to sway one way or the other for the rest of their lives.

What if he returns to being the very human being he was before Darla turned him? Then what? The guy was an extremely unpleasant human being?





What if Angel became corrupted on his own, without anyone's help? He's done it before.

Considering the fact that, if we are to believe the Senior Partners (who came up with the prophecy to begin with) Angel will receive the reward of mortality for the big role that he will play in THE apocalypse, presumably the one that will result in all magic and supernatural forces being expelled from this dimension. The confusing part, at least to me, is that he will be rewarded for his role on the side of the Senior Partners, which would put him in opposition to Buffy and her army. Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but it seems to me that if all supernatural elements, including the Slayers, are banished to another dimension, Angel, being by then mortal, would stay on this side. How can that possibly equate as a "happily ever after" scenario for Buffy and Angel?

 

[Krj2501]

Good question.

But we also have to remember that Buffy is now exactly the same as Angel - in terms of their superhuman abilities.

So there's the real possibility that Buffy would end up in the same place as Angel.

Still if there's truely going to be a Season 9(or what ever it's eventually called) then it's highly likely that both Buffy & Angel will remain Superpowered for that season as well.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Considering the fact that, if we are to believe the Senior Partners (who came up with the prophecy to begin with) Angel will receive the reward of mortality for the big role that he will play in THE apocalypse, presumably the one that will result in all magic and supernatural forces being expelled from this dimension. The confusing part, at least to me, is that he will be rewarded for his role on the side of the Senior Partners, which would put him in opposition to Buffy and her army. Correct me if I'm wrong, here

You're wrong.

The Shanshu Prophecy is from the Scrolls of Aberjian. The Senior Partners acquired the scrolls, and studied them, then Angel stole them in S1. Wolfram & Hart did not come up with the prophecy.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Don't you think Angel (and now Buffy) are going to come off as certifiably inept if this is the case?

I mean, Angel especially! Manipulated by the First in BS3, Jasmine throughout the entire series until AS5, and then again slowly corrupted by W&H in AS5 until You're Welcome, now a 4th higher force turning Angel's head around?

That would really just make a joke out of his character...

Well, however you slice it, Angel isn't coming out of this looking good.

On the one hand, maybe he's allowed himself to be manipulated by greater powers once again... something that's been the constant story of his life since he let Darla bite him in that alleyway. Since then, he's been the tool of powers both high and low... usually willingly so, and as a result his quest for redemption has been one step forward, one step back. If that's the case again, then the only thing good that might come out of it is if he finally comes to the realization that greater powers have their own agendas, and don't care about his, and he can't rely on anyone but himself and his friends as far as redemption and the hero quest are concerned.

The other option is that he's morally regressed to the point that he really thinks his path to redemption lies through the mangled corpses of brave, heroic young girls, and is apparently okay with that.

But it's just not tracking. The Angel we know might sacrifice lives to save more, but if he did he'd own up to it, try to explain it to Buffy in a way that didn't involve sex within the first 30 seconds, and he'd be tortured by guilt that would be with him the rest of his life.

Instead, he feeds her some wuss excuse along the lines of "it wasn't me that killed all those girls and all my own soldiers... I was in church with Michael and Sonny and Fredo when all these terrible things were happening. Besides, mortals have to die sometime, so it isn't really me killing them... it's their own mortality!"

That's not the Angel we know.

I'm thinking Spike's function in the story will be to listen to Angel spinning that crap, laugh in his face, and give everyone a nice big reality check. Spike is better equipped than anyone to function as an Angel BS Detector.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well, however you slice it, Angel isn't coming out of this looking good.

If it's an alt!timeline!Angel it doesn't reflect poorly on the World's Champion. Alt!vampire!Willow was a mass murderer, but no one held that against Buffyverse!Willow. Admittedly, Alt!Angel is looking less likely...

On the one hand, maybe he's allowed himself to be manipulated by greater powers once again... something that's been the constant story of his life since he let Darla bite him in that alleyway. Since then, he's been the tool of powers both high and low... usually willingly so, and as a result his quest for redemption has been one step forward, one step back. If that's the case again, then the only thing good that might come out of it is if he finally comes to the realization that greater powers have their own agendas, and don't care about his, and he can't rely on anyone but himself and his friends as far as redemption and the hero quest are concerned.

I find it kind of hard to believe he didn't realize that by You're Welcome...

The other option is that he's morally regressed to the point that he really thinks his path to redemption lies through the mangled corpses of brave, heroic young girls, and is apparently okay with that.

But it's just not tracking. The Angel we know might sacrifice lives to save more, but if he did he'd own up to it, try to explain it to Buffy in a way that didn't involve sex within the first 30 seconds, and he'd be tortured by guilt that would be with him the rest of his life.

Instead, he feeds her some wuss excuse along the lines of "it wasn't me that killed all those girls and all my own soldiers... I was in church with Michael and Sonny and Fredo when all these terrible things were happening. Besides, mortals have to die sometime, so it isn't really me killing them... it's their own mortality!"

That's not the Angel we know.

Darned confusing...

I'm thinking Spike's function in the story will be to listen to Angel spinning that crap, laugh in his face, and give everyone a nice big reality check. Spike is better equipped than anyone to function as an Angel BS Detector.

Cordy & Spike are on equal footing in that regard, but Buffy would surely sooner listen to Spike...

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I was looking for this quote when you first asked this question, but I couldn't remember the episode. It was on today, so I think this should answer the question about Angel's feelings about the Powers:

WESLEY
Then let's go to the source. Whatever happened to
Cordelia, it took place after her ascension to the higher
planes. Maybe the Powers might be able to"”

ANGEL
The last couple of times I asked the Powers That Be for
help, they made it pretty damned clear they weren't in the
business.

WESLEY
But at least one of those was to save Darla's life. A mass-murdering ex-vampire dying of syphilis? A strong "no" is
hardly a shock.

ANGEL
You think the Powers couldn't see this thing was
masquerading as Cordy? What it was doing to us? They
didn't stop it because they didn't want to get their hands
dirty. (beat) What we need is somebody who does.
Somebody right in the middle of all this.

 

[citiegal17]

I really hope that maybe there is absolutley no redemption for Angel at the end of this. Considering his characters history him being Twilight is not hard to believe. Also him being manipulated by someone else would still come off as being a weak excuse to let his character off the hook for his actions. I'm not interested in heroes who belief they have the right to decide who should live or die. There is nothing remotely empowering in the message the ends justify the means or some greater good because it in the end its just another form of evil.

 

[Superstar]

Here's an interesting response Georges Jeanty just gave in a Q&A:
Q: Who would you blame Twilight's actions on? Angel, Buffy or a third party?
A: How about this for an answer: an older party?

That's a great response!

the real Big Bad here.

Can I say that it's one we've met before?

In true comic-book fashion it took The First a season and a half to show itself as merely a shadowy menace due to events in Season 1 and another 3 and a half seasons after that to openly be revealed.

This Big Bad is just as patient. Sort of.

So Andrew, let me ask you; when do you think things began to get wonky? Surely not just season 8.

Was it when Sunnydale went from a 1-Starbucks town where the good side of town was only half a block from the bad side of town to one that has a busy (ships are leaving daily) inland seaport that mysteriously disappears later and gains an International airport? Or was it when as Riley (and Giles) states he's been in town for a few years and never noticed a big honkin' castle before (with a famous vampire of movie romance in residence no less)? Or was it when little 1-Starbucks Sunnydale with the nearest Neiman Marcus 2 hours away gained a somewhat prestigious community college? Or was it when the Sunnydale crater swallowed the little backwater town that ended up the size of LA itself?

You have time to rewatch the Buffy series again before the end of season 8.

Watch again what begins to happen before and after Angel leaves. Pay particular attention to Spike. It might help.
Buffy (as Drusilla puts it) surrounds him. He begins to change and hates it completely. Resists it with everything he has you might even say. But, ultimately is muzzled by a chip from a third party until he finally gives up and goes after Buffy romantically instead of with homicidal intent (mostly). Restless is another good one to rewatch. It's no coincidence that Spike is dressed as a watcher, nor is his presumed relationship in Tabula Rasa to Giles. Remember, it is Faith in Buffy's body that finally sends Spike relentlessly on his Buffy-focused path. Riley's classroom kiss, when he makes the sun go down is also worth a rewatch. Pretty sure there's a word for when that happens (and some alternate definitions as well for that word).

I wear the cheese, it does not wear me.

No one saw you coming.

Just trying to be helpful. Season 1 is your touchstone.

 

[Kean]

That's a great response!


Can I say that it's one we've met before?

In true comic-book fashion it took The First a season and a half to show itself as merely a shadowy menace due to events in Season 1 and another 3 and a half seasons after that to openly be revealed.

This Big Bad is just as patient. Sort of.

So Andrew, let me ask you; when do you think things began to get wonky? Surely not just season 8.

Was it when Sunnydale went from a 1-Starbucks town where the good side of town was only half a block from the bad side of town to one that has a busy (ships are leaving daily) inland seaport that mysteriously disappears later and gains an International airport? Or was it when as Riley (and Giles) states he's been in town for a few years and never noticed a big honkin' castle before (with a famous vampire of movie romance in residence no less)? Or was it when little 1-Starbucks Sunnydale with the nearest Neiman Marcus 2 hours away gained a somewhat prestigious community college? Or was it when the Sunnydale crater swallowed the little backwater town that ended up the size of LA itself?

You have time to rewatch the Buffy series again before the end of season 8.

Watch again what begins to happen before and after Angel leaves. Pay particular attention to Spike. It might help.
Buffy (as Drusilla puts it) surrounds him. He begins to change and hates it completely. Resists it with everything he has you might even say. But, ultimately is muzzled by a chip from a third party until he finally gives up and goes after Buffy romantically instead of with homicidal intent (mostly). Restless is another good one to rewatch. It's no coincidence that Spike is dressed as a watcher, nor is his presumed relationship in Tabula Rasa to Giles. Remember, it is Faith in Buffy's body that finally sends Spike relentlessly on his Buffy-focused path. Riley's classroom kiss, when he makes the sun go down is also worth a rewatch. Pretty sure there's a word for when that happens (and some alternate definitions as well for that word).

I wear the cheese, it does not wear me.

No one saw you coming.

Just trying to be helpful. Season 1 is your touchstone.

Ok, I mean this in the nicest possible way but for the love of God, drop the cryptic!

If you have a theory share it with us or don't. But don't dangle it in front of us like a big tease. It's really not fun to read and if I'm honest, rather condescending. I'm fairly sure that's not your intent but seriously, if you know/think you know something, spit it out!