Angel season 1-5

T

TabulaRasa

Buffy Girl
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I was told by many ppl on here to watch Angel, told it was a great show. I don't really know why I didn't watch it. I guess I felt that since there were no Buffy characters in it, I would not enjoy it. But as more and more ppl told me to give it a chance, I found myself opening up to the possibility of spending countless hours on it.

My spouse had to get up for work a little early here and there, which gave me a little 'insight' if you will to Angel. I caught the last 10-15 min of a few epis here (started at 6am 🙁 )and there in season 4, and I found myself intrigued. So...we joined with Netflix and I started to get Angel. For now, I am going to comment on each season...sort of. I hope you will all bare with me.

1. Season one with the joining of Doyle, Angel and Cordy, and a visit from Buffy was all very...well just ok. I was very happy to see Cordy there (even tho I knew she was going to be) it just felt right. I liked her a part of it. She was a part of Buffy so that made me happy. It really sucked Doyle died, but of course it was not only necessary, but right. Cordy getting his visions was actually very intersting, and gave her a sense of meaning. Seeing Buffy was amazing, I am always happy to see Buffy and was sad it was the first visit of only a mere 2, but hey, I'll take what I can get. Anyways, Doyle leaving gave a good empty seat for Wes, who I found still funny, charming and different. And I liked it! He had more inner strength, he was more sure of himself. To me he seemed to know he had more in him, I also liked that. So anyways, what I am getting at was season one was not my favorite, but it had potential and enough to draw me in even more. Ohh and I always love seeing Faith.

2. 3.4. Need I really say anything? These three seasons were amazing. I admit Connor got on my nerves a lot, but it told a very good story. But I am unhappy about Cordy being in a coma. But otherwise, amazing seasons, could watch them a million times over. I really liked it when Faith kicked Connor's ass.

5. Not very happy with a lot of season 5, atleast not all the episodes leading up to You're Welcome. All the episodes remaining, got not only better in show, but more heart breaking...which isn't always good I admit.

Now I have to say I am really upset that Cordy died...she could have this time really been promoted to higher being...I just think she got a raw deal...dieing at 23 and all. Then the death of Fred and transformation to Illyria, which for everyone who watched...you can tell Fred is still in there so not a total loss. And then the death of Wes. Seems right, but then again, he should have been in the final fight...the one we didn't see play out. Which I think only three survivors. Angel, Illyria, and Spike. I have my reasons. And for Gunn, he was wounded and he doesn't have super human strength and with all those baddies coming for them, I just don't see a triumph in his case. 🙁

I want everyone to remember, this is all my opinion, so please don't get mad at me for saying Gunn would die.

I want to thank everyone for telling me to give Angel a chance. I am a huge fan of the show now. It still isn't Buffy, but I would rather watch Angel then anything else out there (other then Buffy). I am sad that is it over, but glad I can always watch them again...minus the death of Cordy, still kills me damn it! I would also like to add that I still think Angel loves Buffy more then Cordy, just watch the girl in question. Ok so now that I have shared some minor opinions here I hope that anyone here who has not watched Angel, will give it a chance, cause you are otherwise really missing out. Trust me, I know.
 
Sorry but how are there no Buffy characters in Angel? Where did Angel, Cordy and Wes come from then?
 
Wicked said:
Sorry but how are there no Buffy characters in Angel? Where did Angel, Cordy and Wes come from then?
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Absolutely, as well as Spike. Plus appearences by Buffy, Willow, Faith, Andrew, Darla and Drusilla. And there's probably tons of cameo crossovers like Anne. SO not really sure where you're coming from there, Wicked.

But I agree with some of what you say about the show. I'm not a particularly big Season 1 fan either but there was enough good stuff to keep me watching until it got good in Season 2. Season 3 is classic.

Season 4 - had its moments (the Appocalypse Nowish Beast fight is amazing) but the main arc with Cordy & Jasmine was a little off. I thought it could have done with a bit more planning out.

Season 5 was my fave, yeh a few of the standalones at the start were dire, but with Spike and Lindsey I still enoyed it a lot. And when the Illyria plot gets underway, it's fantastic.
 
That's not what I meant. I meant Buffy, and Willow really. Darla, Dru, Spike, Cordy, Faith, Angel, Wes all came from Buffy, I realize that, I just wanted more...I am greedy.


Ohh and I want to say that I cannot stop watching season 5. I did some really amazing screen caps and I am just hooked. It gets better every time I watch it.

Still poor gun with Illyria telling him he has only about 10 minutes to live 🙁

And I snapped a pic of all those baddies coming toward them in the end. What does every one thing will happen with that 80 billion foot demon?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Christinatabor/PDVD_001.jpg
 
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Erm, the point wasn't to make Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Buffy the Vampire Slayer 2: B in LA, they wanted a spin off with a different feel.

Though it would have been fun, i'm sure if episode one of Angel revolved around Buffy, 2 Willow, 3 Xander, then maybe Giles, ohh now some Cordelia WITH Xander, then Angel/Buffy, probably now just Buffy centric, then the season Big Bad that ony Buffy can beat should show up, now here Doyle dies, btu it doesn't matter because hey we still have the rest of the Buffy group.
 
Now come on, you are just being really mean right now. I happen to love buffy and I dont want the show to revolve around her...and if you think about it, it already does, all the cast almost came from Buffy...I was just saying it would have been nice to see them drop by a little more. I would have loved to see Cordy and Angel and even Wes drop by Buffy more too. Yeesh, some ppl.
 
tabularasa said:
Now come on, you are just being really mean right now. I happen to love buffy and I dont want the show to revolve around her...and if you think about it, it already does, all the cast almost came from Buffy...I was just saying it would have been nice to see them drop by a little more. I would have loved to see Cordy and Angel and even Wes drop by Buffy more too. Yeesh, some ppl.
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Well the problem with that was they were on different networks. They couldnt do crossovers.

Besides Angel needed to prove it was its own show. Seperate from Buffy. Much as the character had to do the same. Otherwise there would be no point. It really would just be Buffy in LA.
 
Well either way I love Angel, even minus more visits from buffy, or willow. It was a great show, on it's own.
 
Some of my thoughts about AtS...

I was sorry that Doyle didn't stay on the show longer. He was a magnetic personality and the character had a lot of potential.

I wasn't entirely happy with the development of the character of Cordelia, although Charisma Carpenter was well deserving of the bigger role she got on the spinoff. I agree that "You're Welcome" is a great performance. It's not like she didn't do great work on Buffy too. "The Wish" from Season 3 is, I think, a most hauntingly profound episode of Buffy and, I've heard, the actress' favourite of the whole series. In Season 4 of Angel there was the matter of the actress' pregnancy to deal with, which influenced the storylines.

Amy Acker's Fred was so lovable. When she came into the mix she brought something of the endearing, vulnerable, quirky quality of the early Willow. Remember they did both come from nerdy origins. I'm glad that the two met on camera in "Orpheus" - a really great episode by the way, with the Willow crossover and Faith thrown in too! I would have liked to have seen Fred meet Buffy at some point, being how she was so intrigued with the woman who'd so captured Angel's heart.

Faith had a complex, wonderful story on Angel. Her relationship with Angel/Angelus over four seasons of the show was intriguing, to say the least. And of course that relationship really got started in Season 3 of Buffy. I think that, however much the worlds of Buffy and Angel had diverged by Season 4, she was able to drop into either of them and be a perfectly consistent character.

That brings up one of my regrets about the spinoff - to some extent I wish that the two shows could have meshed better in the later seasons. For example I wasn't that impressed with the Season 4 Angel/Season 7 Buffy finale crossover, but that's a long story.

I guess though that trying to keep storylines running closer in parallel would have restricted the creative freedom of both shows, so I understand.
 
I totally agree with you on Amy, 'Fred' was an amazing addition. I just loved her story line and then her transformation into Illyria. I would have been really mad and upset if they had just killed her.

Have you noticed that Angel's cast is mostly male and Buffy's is female...
Buffy: Buffy, Anya, Willow, Faith, Tara, Dawn, (cordy, angel at the beginning) Giles, Xander, and Spike
Angel: Angel, Cordy, Gunn, Doyle, Wes, Fred, Lorne

I mean it is not that bad, it is good in it's own ways, I love both so I guess it worked out well that way. But losing Cordy and only having Illyria left sucked. I missed Cordy and Wes. Thought they should be there for the final fight.
 
Well not quite, lets go on main title characters eh

Buffy: Buffy Willow Anya Cordelia Tara Dawn Giles Xander Angel Oz Riley Spike
Angel: Angel Doyle Wes Gunn Lorne Connor Spike Cordy Fred Harmony

The we have recurring characters that offer importance to both good and bad guys

Buffy: Harmony Johnathan Warren Andrew Forrest Drusilla Joyce Faith
Angel: Lindsay Eve Lilah Gavin Faith Holland Darla Drusilla

I mean obviously some characters have been left out, i think if you look at the list you do see that essentially its pretty rounded.

Buffy
6 main men 6 main women
4 rec men 4 rec women

Angel
7 main men 3 main women
3 rec men 5 rec women

That is a basic break down and i'm sure that ok it does seem a little bias on Angel, honestly its not enough to state that one show was more more gender specific than another.


Ohh and TR - That wasn't being mean that was fun sarcasm🙂
 
Sure, sure....whatever you say. But when I watch both shows, I just get that sense of one has more females and one has more males...like when I watch Buffy season 6 and Angel season 5. If you look at the cast in both of those seasons, then you get my point. I was pretty much referring to times like those.
 
I for one did feel that Buffy was more female-weighted, and Angel more male-weighted, so to speak. Yes one can do the character count but when I look at how the power and the roles are distributed among the people on the shows I think it does tilt in opposite ways.

The original Buffy concept embodied the idea of female empowerment from the beginning, even going back to the 1992 feature film - remember only girls are chosen to be slayers (Andrew's complaint!) That particular idea wasn't ever part of the Angel series.

Overall I enjoyed watching Buffy more, partly because I was so depressed by some of the main storylines on Angel. The whole Angel-Holtz-Connor arc, for example. Yes my sympathies are with Angel but I couldn't help feeling for Holtz too, given that Angel and Darla had destroyed his family. Shades of gray.

The debates go on about the Angel finale, such as whether Cordelia should have come back for it. It was sad that Wesley couldn't be in the alley but he'd already fallen in the battle (an event that was spoiled for me, by the way by the tv.com site - grrr!) But I thought "Not Fade Away" was utterly brilliant. The idea of the principals spending a final perfect day and the way the episode recapitulated what the whole series was about. And then the final, unconcluded battle...

I liked "Not Fade Away" better than "Chosen". The latter left me feeling a little hollow, like a buildup somehow left unfulfilled at the end. In the case of "Not Fade Away" maybe there was no way to put a finish to that impossible situation, better to leave it to the viewer's imagination, although I know a lot of fans don't agree.
 
T
TabulaRasa
agree, I feel the same way
I wasn't responding to if one show was geared to one gender and the other to another, I was responding to 'one show seems to have more than the other'.
Of course the shows are differently geared towards one sex, Buffy the Vampire Slayer's lead is a woman who fights evil. The main concept is about female empowerment and her struggle, where as Angel is the exact opposite.

If people chose their words and questions correctly then they get answers pertaining to what they say.

tabularasa said:
like when I watch Buffy season 6 and Angel season 5. If you look at the cast in both of those seasons, then you get my point. I was pretty much referring to times like those.
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See what you have done their is misrepresented the facts to suit your own gain by suggesting one season.
Well then should I do the same?
I think Buffy is male orientated, if you look at season 4 you will see.
We have Buffy, Willow and Anya as the main females, and as the males we have Xander, Giles, Spike, Oz and Riley.
You knwo why I don't do that, because its not an accurate overview of the show.

Seasonally one gender numbered more than the other but ultimately neither were out numbered.

Like i say, if you want to discuss that the shows seem geared to sex then fine, say that.
For me, I find it interesting that Angel seemed more focused on male Extras then Female and Buffy in did that with females. This added to Angel being in 'The Mans' world where even the women acted like me, where as Buffy, because the main protagonist was female, was able to revel in its femininity which is what Joss wanted as he pursued The Powerful Woman.
 
Hmm you forgot that in season 4 Oz was out and Tara was in, so you may want to specify things correctly yourself my dear.
 
tabularasa said:
Hmm you forgot that in season 4 Oz was out and Tara was in, so you may want to specify things correctly yourself my dear.
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Oh yeah It seems I forgot that little nugget from my favourite TV show in one of my fave years regarding my fave characterf and one likeable character....not.
In season 4 Oz was still in the group for some of it BUT was a lead character.
Tara joined as a recurring only eventually getting Title character in her last episode 2 years later.

So, how does that effect the point I made, i'll tell you how.
It doesn't....dear!
 
well then we have to take Giles out at the end, cause he was credit as a guest star as well...hmmm, my point is getting across enough...either way, at one time or another, buffy has had more female cast then male...

Season 1> Buffy, Xander, Giles, Willow, Cordy, Angel
Season 2> Oz, Giles, Willow, Xander, Buffy, Cordy, Spike, Drusilla, angel
Season 3> Oz, Giles, Willow, Xander, Buffy, Cordy, Faith, Spike, Dru, angel
Season 4> Oz, Giles, Willow, Xander, Buffy, Faith, Riley, Spike, Tara, Anya
Season 5> Riley, Spike, Dru, Xander, Willow, Tara, Anya, Buffy, Giles, Dawn
Season 6> Giles, Spike, Xander, Willow, Tara, Anya, Buffy, Dawn
Season 7> Giles, Spike, Xander, Willow, Tara, Anya, Buffy, Dawn, Andrew I will even add, Faith, with an addition of Robin, Kennedy.
Buffy> Harmony, warren, johnathan, Darla, but not enough to add on here. Not to me. If I missed anyone, oh well. I made my point and I am done. Please feel free to FIX anything I missed 'Bored of the Dead' I am sure you will jump at the chance 😉

Anyways, even if here and there, there were more gender specific seasons, Angel was def more male roles then not.
 
well then we have to take Giles out at the end, cause he was credit as a guest star as well...hmmm, my point is getting across enough...either way, at one time or another, buffy has had more female cast then male
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Do you even know what you are typing?

Giles becomes a Guester in season 6 HOW on this beautiful planet does that have any significance to the male - female ration of season 4 Credit Characters?

You don't even seem to be following your own point with 'at one time or another...yadda yadda yawn yawn' because i've given a season when creditted characters of the male gender out numbered that of female.

IF you want to add recurrings to that list then you see it pretty much equals out IN BOTH SHOWS.

Ohh and Tara didn't appear once in season 7🙂

You need to understand what argument you are trying to argue then stick with it, otherwise you get posts like the ones you've posted.


IF you want a serious discussion about how Buffy seems more orientated towards women, even though its pretty even with the amount of males and females, I will discuss that because I can see that.
Similarly with Angel, if you wish to discuss how its Male orientated by all means, but that does not negate the fact that if you do a decent character count of Creditted characters and recurring of a substantial amount again the numbers are only slightly off.
 
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