Angel Season 4 Rewatch

@hoponlilmama @Joan the Vampire Slayer

So Iv finished Souless and the first half of Season 4. As an episode Souless is very good and well directed by Samwise Gamgee himself. Which goes to show Hobbits watch Angel too 😀
Angelus psychologically torturing the gang is very good. As is the scene of Connor crying over the dead family.
If I had an issue its that some of the dialogue done, rape jokes/taunts just don't work for me and I don't find them that clever. But still a really good episode and a good way to end the first half of the season 8/10

As for the first half itself. Contrary to what's often said, its actually really strong and good run of episodes. The Beast is great as is the mystery around him. Lilah/Wes has to be one of the best relationships on either show. While his obsession with Fred is shown just that an obsession. Also Angel himself is deliberately written as an arsehole rather than unintentionally by the writers which is good.
So whats wrong: Well Fred basically just becomes a possession for Gunn and Wes. The murder of the Professor and how Gunn feels about it or about doing it for Fred is basically ignored in favour of the Ownership (its not Love) triangle stuff.
The other is the Cordy/Connor stuff, which while gross doesn't bother me because of the backstage issues behind it. What does is the writing. Ok so if you've seen the first 11 episodes and not seen the rest you wonder what the hell Cordy is playing at sleeping with Angels son, who she was a surrogate mother too and the son of the man she's meant to be in love with. If you've seen the other 12 episodes you wonder what the hell Jasmine is up to (ignoring episode 5 as that was Cordy) because her guilt and shame and other actions make no sense in respect to her plan either. Hell even if you went with the original evil Cordy plan the writers said they had, her actions still don't make sense.
Anyway on to the 2nd half
 
Re: Deep Down; I hated the Latino Vampire Street Gang. Like, Hispanics have been in California for several hundred years, you could have cast them as anything, yet these guys look like rejects from the Walker Texas Ranger x Breaking Bad crossover. I'm not saying this is like hiring Tony Todd to play "Homeboy #2," these are clearly character actors. But it's just like, you could have had vampire Desi Arnez leading two Zoot Suit rioters, and you went with Hispanic Dukes of Hazzard?
 
AlphaFoxtrot said:
Re: Deep Down; I hated the Latino Vampire Street Gang. Like, Hispanics have been in California for several hundred years, you could have cast them as anything, yet these guys look like rejects from the Walker Texas Ranger x Breaking Bad crossover. I'm not saying this is like hiring Tony Todd to play "Homeboy #2," these are clearly character actors. But it's just like, you could have had vampire Desi Arnez leading two Zoot Suit rioters, and you went with Hispanic Dukes of Hazzard?
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There's loads of stereotypes in the Buffy Verse, not least Tweed wearing English posh boys who contrast with the hip cool Americans.
Hell Gunn was pretty much the only black character in LA and the Angel writers still felt awkward writing him.
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Cavalry - Its credited with 3 writers but actually its 4.
Mere Smith wrote the Exposition scenes and Gunn/Fred scenes in the Hotel
Steven D, Knight did the Angelus in the cage scenes
Jeff Bell did the Connor/Gunn fight with the Demon in the cemetery.
And Joss Whedon although uncredited did the Evil Cordelia reveal scene murder of Lilah - Back story is Stephanie Romanov asked for raise. Joss said no albiet not that politely and she gave her notice.

Overall its a good episode until Angelus gets out of the cage then he comes across as a bit of an idiot. A few issues with the rape lines in the dialogue.
Plus that final scene, in character why would Cordy risk discovery when Angelus should be able to kill Lilah himself. In fact why does she even care to want Lilah dead ?????
 
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@hoponlilmama @NotASlayer @Fuffy Baith @Joan the Vampire Slayer @NoShip @thetopher

Ok so I reviewed the Faith episodes previously on the Buffy Rewatch (I did the Crossovers) I will say this, it's funny that on Buffy S7 that Faith says she's not the take charge type, when in these episodes she quite literally does take charge when capturing Angelus 😂

Some great stunt work, especially Faith and Wesley busting out of jail in Salvage and the Faith v Angelus fight scene is one of the best fight scenes on the show, probably only bested by Spike v Angel next year.

Also Wesley/Willow had some pretty hot chemistry in there Orpheus scene.

Overall Salvage is good not great due to how stupid Angelus is. Release is really good even though Angelus is stupid.
Orpheus is ok but not good due to how stupid evil Cordy is. Though Faith beating up Connor is funny

Ok on to Players
 
Ok so Im 15 episodes into Season 4 and besides Slouching Towards Bethlehem there's none Id call bad and Orpheus aside which was meh I would probably do a rewatch of most of them.
Season 4 gets a bad rap. Honestly in a head to head Id say it was probably better than Buffy S7 too
What say you ?
 
I didn't hate it; I just didn't like it very much. For me, it's a meh season. But is was still much, much better than the last two seasons of Buffy.
 
NotASlayer said:
I didn't hate it; I just didn't like it very much. For me, it's a meh season. But is was still much, much better than the last two seasons of Buffy.
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They did retcon themselves a bit to much on making Angel/Angelus separate people which was different to what Tim Minear had done, showing they were both the same person.

Im on the Jasmine arc now. Im very meh on it on the rewatch. It gives Gina Torres a job. I don't hate it or think it's bad like Pylea but I just shrug my shoulders. It didn't need 4 episodes, you could probably have done it in 3 or even just 2.

Players - Enjoyable enough though the second Gunn discovered that Gwen tricked him into trying to kidnapp a girl as a decoy, he should've left her instead of carrying on . Also he wants to prove he's more than just the muscle by...beating people up 🫤
I did love Lorne and The Magic 8 Ball at the end though "Has Cordy been a bad bad girl"

The episode Inside Out felt like the Writers trying cover there arses with a whole load of rewrites to say why the creature inside Cordy gives birth to herself which is Gina Torres.
Im still not sure why Jasmine needed to manipulate Gunn and his sister or Wes sleeping with Lilah and Fred going to Pylea. None of that in anyway helps her plan.
Also the whole Virgin sacrifice was both horrific and cheesy at the same time and makes Connor unsympathetic in helping Evil Cordy/Jasmine murder a girl.

Shiny Happy People - Im as an audience member waiting for the Jasmine reveal. Which is not till the end so the episode drags until then. Plus would Fred really be stupid to tell Wesley when she knows he's under her spell ! Then Jasmine lets her go for well reasons I guess. When things happen or characters act a certain way because the plot needs them too it starts to lose me.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
Yes, meh is how the whole season ended up being for me. Though I admit to enjoying some of the Pylea arc.
@NotASlayer @hoponlilmama @silvermoon @DeepBlueJoy @Joan the Vampire Slayer
Ok so Ill finish the Jasmine arc then do Home and final Season 4 thoughts separately

Magic Bullet - enjoyable enough but it's basically just 1 long chase scene of everyone running after Fred which gets old. They also turn Jasmine into a basic mustache twirling villain which makes her uninteresting. Also the whole Connor scene of him grinning and going Cool after she tells him she eats people should've been cut out as it goes against everything the writers claim to be doing with his character.

Sacrifice - This episode just drags for me. I know the comparison they are trying to do with these kids underground but I dont really care. The Gunn/Fred scene where they (and the writersl finally remember Murdering The Professor, 15 episodes later and discuss it is very good. Also the whole forget Cordelia line feels a bit meta. Overall watchable but like I said it drags.

Peace Out - The stand out is Vincent Kartheiser as Connor, possibly his best episode. The scene of him with Cordy in the Church is the best scene in the episode. It could've been better without Jasmine telling him she eats people a couple of episodes ago. That scene of Wesley telling him that and having him really uncomfortable over it would've worked better.
The dialogue between Angel and the High Priest just made me groan it was pure stock strawman writing "why do you fight dead thing, its for the boy" its so cliche and how the hell would the Priest know that anyway.
Angels dialogue is pretty terrible in this. The whole Im fighting for free will speech is actually hilarious given what we know happens in the next episode 😂
Also Jasmine death would've had so much more impact if they'd not already made her a moustache twirling villain who wants to eat people.
So yeah watchable but the stand out is the Connor Church scene, the rest is bland. Not bad but not great either. Which sums up the Jasmine arc all together. Gina Carano was fine and VK was fine in there roles (though I never felt any chemistry of family between them) but it could've been so much more deeper if the writers had tried

Anyway ready for the Finale
 
anybody else think the amount of eps they intentionally wrote characters OOC in this season says something about the writers and their opinions and ideas for the characters? We have possession, amnesia, dream sequences, brainwashing, whatever you call what was done in that casino, making Angel lose his soul. It's ridiculous
 
garfan said:
anybody else think the amount of eps they intentionally wrote characters OOC in this season says something about the writers and their opinions and ideas for the characters? We have possession, amnesia, dream sequences, brainwashing, whatever you call what was done in that casino, making Angel lose his soul. It's ridiculous
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Its hard to say though the whole Angel and Angelus are completely separate people is different from how Tim Minear had been writing Angel.
Losing Minear for Firefly probably hurt Angel more than Greenwalt at the end of last year.

Also even if you go by what the writers said how it was meant to be with evil Cordy who Angel fights Becoming style it doesn't explain her shock amd shame of sleeping with Connor or with some of her actions in the season.
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@NotASlayer @hoponlilmama @thetopher @NoShip @Joan the Vampire Slayer @Fuffy Baith @DeepBlueJoy @garfan
Anyway time for the Season (and until very late in the day, it might have been the Series) Finale Home -
As a Season finale its good enough but doesn't really explain why many of the Gang would join Wolfram and Hart or why W&H would even want many of them.
Take Fred, as a character she's been shown to be morally judgemental. She hated Connor after what he did to Angel, she went cold on Gunn after him getting in the way of murdering the Professor and doing it himself. She also shut down any chance for Wesley after she finds out he had slept with Lilah.
Yet suddenly she decides to join W&H !! She's even asked in the episode but doesn't respond which is such a cop out.

The other is Lorne, W&H have got lots of mind readers already so why do they need him ???? Anwser because he's a regular cast member (bad idea)

The episode also skips out on the fact Angel basically foisted his son on an innocent family.
While in the last episode talks about free will this episode makes an executive decision for the whole team while mind raping them (and that family) over Connors memories.
Also as an Angel viewer I hope you watch Buffy because if you don't then that Amulet Lilah gives him will make no sense whatsoever.

Its not awful though. The Lilah/Wesley scene as he tries to destroy her contract to give her peace is really touching. They had the best relationship of either show.
Connor break down and Angel in tears over it is great too. Some of the dialogue is killer too
Wesley "Its a lie"
Lilah "No its a Lilah" 😂😂😂

Overall really good, but you have to ignore characters doing things because the plot needs them too
 
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wolfheart said:
I strangly liked season 4 but season 5 was for me the cherry on top
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For me I love the Beast Arc and Faith coming back is really great. Where it falls down for me is the Jasmine arc. See above why.

Its got a bad reputation for the behind the scenes issues with Joss and Charisma. But if you ignore those amd judge it strictly as a TV show, its not bad. I actually prefer it to S3 and S1 as a season and it has some 10/10 episodes in it.
 
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