Angel & Spike & Age Gaps

Both relationships have an age gap; the question should really be how much agency does the younger partner have in said relationship? How are they shown to set the terms of the relationship? Is there a weird power dynamic at play? Are there signs of coercion and/or manipulation? What about blackmail or emotional abuse? (by the older partner)

If all of these things are done by the older person on the younger then the age gap should matter much more, because that is what people in the real world often watch out for with those 'May to December' affairs.
I mean, the size of the age gap should be a factor but so should the relationship outside the romance; are they co-workers? Mentor and junior? Professor and student? Therapist and patient? All of those are incredibly sketchy because of the power imbalance outside the romance stuff.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
Oddly, given that Riley is in a position of power with relation to Buffy, that's the only relationship she has any real agency in, especially as she has absolutely none with Spike.
@NotASlayer That one is doubly bad, because while many universities have issues with TAs having relationships with students, pretty much ALL of them would have an issue with a TA having a relationship when the student is in the class they are a TA for.

Incidentally, Law and the Multiverse is a site that takes fictional situations from conics and other media and attempts to apply real world law to them, It seemsto have died out, but there's an article about Mind Control and Sexual Assault (so trigger warning). Among other things, in the comments there's also notes from the writer about actual/apparent appearance and statutory consent laws.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
Although not even close to the worst thing that the Initiative was doing.
Yes, every school has different rules and customs regarding grad students, but dating someone who is grading your papers is usually a big no-no. But very few elder millennials are threatened by grad students dating 17 or 18 year olds, which I still suspect is the real origin of this controversy/ moral panic.
 
I guess Buffy and Riley is saved by the fact that its not really framed as teacher/student. I mean, they do go on precisely one date- a picnic- and then its all 'oh, we're both monster hunters!' and then escalates from there.
I suppose there are crazy people out there who do things like 'count the number of times Riley grabs Buffy's arm' and say that he's a controlling, red-flag waving abusive nightmare but its not because he's a TA.

It always seemed to me that, romance-wise Buffy was always on firmer footing in the earlier seasons. if she liked a guy romantically she'd straight up kiss them (Owen, Angel) and if she didn't like them she beat them up if they tried (hyena!Xander, that swim douche).
But later on its gets decidedly blurrier, she psychologically worn down, gaslit, assaulted and harassed and yet have claimed that older Buffy 'has more agency' in the later years and that why they like certain ships.
 
@Joan the Vampire Slayer - Buffy is of age when she gets with Spike. No doubt.

My basic question is: if getting together with a vamp 225 years older is bad why id getting together with a vamp 110 years older ok?

They both seem equally gross.
 
To be fair, I doubt the more expansive forms of the age gap arguments, where a 30 year old woman with three kids cannot consent to dating a 50 year old man, are really that popular. The Age of Majority Absolutists have an easier argument. In this lens, Angel clearly did something wrong, whereas Spike may have done something wrong, depending on Buffy's "brain development" making consent impossible, like being 22 is a form of intellectual disability, or something.

Also, they could just be unexamined Spuffy's who like having a another reason to hate Angel. "At least Spike didn't groom her?" I mean, I like Spike too, but I admit he's a monster.
 
This was an issue for Hollywood in general at the time. Look at Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Arc. In that Indy fell out with Abner, his mentor figure because he was sleeping with his under age daughter. Marion even says she was a child. Indy doesn't care "you knew what you were doing" and the audience isn't expected too either !
Nowadays that would be an obvious no no
 
For Liam, the age of consent was 12 when he was turned. For William, 13. I don't like that, but as far as both vampires were concerned, Buffy was past the age of majority. If it's argued that they are locked in at the age they were when turned, which does seem a common argument, then both were turned at times when the age of consent was much younger and it wasn't uncommon to marry girls off to men decades older. Icky, but history sometimes is.
 
And in some states in 1998, fornication would have been illegal. If we are being true to the period, they would only be enforced if the parents filed a complaint, and they were usually dismissed as squares for doing so. This is why I hate this part of the argument, it's not, did Angel violate Hank's property rights, it's, Buffy was not prepared for the emotional consequences of sex on her relationship, here's the aftermath. She could have been 17, she could have been 19, it's not the point. This was never about consent.
 
It's a TV show...they're young and attractive and everyone knows it, even if they're a hundred years old on paper.

Are we going to hassle Shakespeare next? Romeo and Juliet are like 15 and 14 or something. Idk if it is said exactly what their ages are, but it's almost certainly considered statutory rape by contemporary standards, even with Romeo and Juliet laws, ironically.
 
Btvs fan said:
@hoponlilmama I mean they got rid of Riff Regan and brought in Alyson Hannigan who was clearly good looking.

Also you mentioned Jonathan but Danny Strong is quite a snappy dresser in real life.
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True, but she also wasn't a good fit in the role. That's pretty evident when you watch the un-aired pilot.
Snappy dresser and good looking are two different things...


NotASlayer said:
And Jonathan isn't bad. Just short.

Armin Shimmerman is a better example...

😀

"Starring, very briefly, as Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, it's Armin Shimmerman!"
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Point taken!
Obviously there are people who find him cute, I'm just not one of them. He's not by Hollywood standard's someone you'd consider 'cute' or 'hot'.

Also, we do not need the visual of Snyder as Spike.... yikes! 😁

Edit: @NotASlayer - Oh my. You're right. I apologise! 😁
 
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NotASlayer
NotASlayer
That would have ensured Spuffy would never have gotten anywhere... 😁
TheMaster666 said:
It's a TV show...they're young and attractive and everyone knows it, even if they're a hundred years old on paper.

Are we going to hassle Shakespeare next? Romeo and Juliet are like 15 and 14 or something. Idk if it is said exactly what their ages are, but it's almost certainly considered statutory rape by contemporary standards, even with Romeo and Juliet laws, ironically.
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Romeo and Juliet was less a story of true Romance (they kill themselves over a misunderstanding) and more a commentary on the various feuding families in England who were at each others throats at that time.
 
Btvs fan said:
Romeo and Juliet was less a story of true Romance (they kill themselves over a misunderstanding) and more a commentary on the various feuding families in England who were at each others throats at that time.
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I mean, you could say that the Titanic film wasn't about a couple who fell for one another and it was more about the failures of safety regulations on a ship. 😉

R&J is a tragic love story (age issues aside). It can also be about what you mentioned.
 
hoponlilmama said:
I mean, you could say that the Titanic film wasn't about a couple who fell for one another and it was more about the failures of safety regulations on a ship. 😉

R&J is a tragic love story (age issues aside). It can also be about what you mentioned.
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But the difference there is what Shakespeare was specifically going for and what James Cameron were going for are 2 different things.

Also Cameron treatment of The real life First Officer Murdoch, shooting a passenger then shooting himself was absolutely disgusting. It didn't happen.
 
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