Angel&Spike's real names

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Petite

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I just noticed something that maybe is the result of Joss Whedon not paying doing some research.
Angel's real name is Liam.
Spike's real name is William.
Liam is the Irish of William. 😱 clones? lol
 
I don't think it was so much a blooper as a minor coincidence. It's true that both names have a common origin but they are no longer really thought of as being the same name in the strictest sense.

Liam and William were both relatively common names for the eras that Angel and Spike were born into and so the chances of them being given them were not small. Whilst Joss could easily have chosen a different name for either character i tend to think that he picked names that summed up the human natures of both vamps quite nicely.
 
There probably is a good enough explanation,I just thought it was odd&somewhat funny seen as they hate each other that much.
 
Lol, yeah that is a wierd coincidence. I noticed it a while ago, wonder if Spike was ever called "Liam" for short??? (probably Will or something though, given that he was english and it sounds more englishy somehow)
 
lol.I could just imagine the two of them in a bar and someone says Liam and they both turn around&say"yes" at the same time.
 
This was in no way a coincidence.
The names were picked to be the same on purpose.
I have no evidence to back this up except how Joss has written both Characters.
The connection between these two beings is great and long.
Do you honestly believe Joss, who would have known of the connection in names, would have simply picked William the Bloody, for a Character he created a year after he created 'Liam'.

This, to me, is obviously a way to show two definate characters, who have similar traits(Both from money) but are completely different, both choose to become something else(Vampire), then both are placed in a position agasint there will(Soul and Chip) but ultimately both being the best they can be.

This was no accidental coincidence, and i would bet the entire fortune of The Queen, that Joss himself would say this was done on purpose.
 
Mr. Pointy
Mr. Pointy
I've always thought so
It's a possibility that he picked William without realising the connection between the two names.I mean the man was doing so many great things with that show,I doubt he'd be able to keep track of every little detail.
 
He'd only done the first season, Spike was concieved before season 2 was underway.......There was no Spin-Offs....Just Character Building with a team of writers.
Before they start writing the character they have to do a full character history......as well as look at names and meanings.
Trust me, there is no coincidence here......Liam may have been just aname, BUT Joss knew exactly what he was doing when he made William.
 
I've never heard someone call someone with the name "William," "Liam" for short. My brother is actually named William and he hates being called Willy as much as Spike did in Destiny.
 
Dia DeLa Muerte said:
This was in no way a coincidence.
The names were picked to be the same on purpose.
I have no evidence to back this up except how Joss has written both Characters.
The connection between these two beings is great and long.
Do you honestly believe Joss, who would have known of the connection in names, would have simply picked William the Bloody, for a Character he created a year after he created 'Liam'.

This, to me, is obviously a way to show two definate characters, who have similar traits(Both from money) but are completely different, both choose to become something else(Vampire), then both are placed in a position agasint there will(Soul and Chip) but ultimately both being the best they can be.

This was no accidental coincidence, and i would bet the entire fortune of The Queen, that Joss himself would say this was done on purpose.
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Sorry, DDM, but you can't make a claim like that and then throw in the "I have no evidence" thing.

For one thing, Angel was given a human name after Spike was. A certain amount of character history is initially decided at the point of creation but all of it is open to change, should a later storyline call for it. Nothing is set in stone until it appears onscreen. In fact in some cases even after (Angel being Spike's sire later changing to it being Dru, for example). I doubt that Angel's real name was decided upon until the episode called for it, and that came well after School Hard, when Spike was named.

We all know that Joss is fantastic at what he does and we all also know that even he can make a mistake or change his mind. In this particular case there is no evidence (as you said yourself) that Joss didn't simply choose a common name from the era that both characters were born and use them, regardless of the fact they had a similar origin. I'll grant you that, given the later similarities between the two, your theory isn't impossible but without any form of actual fact you are simply making an assumption, not stating anything solid.

Right now, i'm going to stick with the more likely presumption that it is merely a coincidence.
 
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StuckinTraffic
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^ Good point. Also,
This was in no way a coincidence.
The names were picked to be the same on purpose.
I have no evidence to back this up except how Joss has written both Characters.
The connection between these two beings is great and long.
Do you honestly believe Joss, who would have known of the connection in names, would have simply picked William the Bloody, for a Character he created a year after he created 'Liam'.

This, to me, is obviously a way to show two definate characters, who have similar traits(Both from money) but are completely different, both choose to become something else(Vampire), then both are placed in a position agasint there will(Soul and Chip) but ultimately both being the best they can be.

This was no accidental coincidence, and i would bet the entire fortune of The Queen, that Joss himself would say this was done on purpose.
Click to expand...
I can't remember where he said it, but Joss had claimed Spike was supposed to be a short-lived character. If he had intended for them to have such similarities (including, in this case, their name, paths to becoming champions), he wouldn't have stated Spike was supposed to be killed off. You know? I believe he either states it in a commentary or featurette.
 
alluring dejection said:
^ Good point. Also,

I can't remember where he said it, but Joss had claimed Spike was supposed to be a short-lived character. If he had intended for them to have such similarities (including, in this case, their name, paths to becoming champions), he wouldn't have stated Spike was supposed to be killed off. You know? I believe he either states it in a commentary or featurette.
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Exactly! Spike was supposed to die mid season two but proved far too popular and Joss chose to keep him around (thankfully for all us Spike freaks, lol).

When Spike was given the name William it was at a point where he was going to be killed off only half a season later, long before all the later similarities between Angel and Spike were written and with absolutely no thought to matching his human name to that of Angel.

It was only when they chose to bring back Spike as a main character in season four (long after both Angel and Spike had been given their human names) that the writers started creating the connections in character of the two vamps, and not until Spike got his soul that the connections really came to light.

Sorry, DDM, i respect Joss' writing ability as much as anyone but i'm not willing to ignore the facts. Joss simply did not name Spike as William with any intention of later naming Angel as Liam. It is just an amusing coincidence.
 
BUT we knew of the god damned connection in Spikes first outing.
When Joss was coming up with the names, he will have said, Which ever way they are onscreen, Liam will have been the first to be named......Character Bios are every single detail of the character thats relevant as they are there for ALL the writers to keep continuity, so Angels human name, as Joss knew he would be delving into his human past WOULD have been top....THEN, when he comes to write the Character Spike, who too would need a Bio, he wouldn't have thought...Ok, i'll call him William, then a few weeks later....ohh, yeah, they are the same name, thats a coincidence....
If fanboys and girls online pick up on that simple fact within minutes...and i know that in season 2 when William arrived, there was comment on the name in the real world....the Joss Whedon, who painstakingly develops all his characters in the first few seasons himself, would have known of the name connection.
Its ludicrous to even contemplate that it was a coincidence, because it REALLY wasn't.
Jeez, it doesnt matter how long Spike was to be around.
 
DDM, where do you get this idea that Joss had already planned a human name for Angel, right from the start? He really didn't! In fact, if i remember correctly, we were well into the first season of Angel before the name Liam was ever uttered. In the episode The Prodigal, i believe. You really think that it wouldn't at least have been given a brief mention in three and a half seasons if they had already planned what it was going to be? At the very least Angel would have told Buffy his human name, that is a given.

Character bio's, as you call them, are generally left as open as is possible to allow for fluid storytelling. Until a human name for Angel was actually needed it is very unlikely that Joss or anyone else had actually chosen what it was going to be. Once it was spoken in an episode, and therefore became canon, then it would go down in the writers character bio for Angel, but not beforehand.

Ask yourself this. If Joss had really written such a detailed character history for his creations right back at the start of the series, then why are there so many errors with the likes of birthdates and ages? Both Angel and Spike have incorrectly stated their age at one time or another. How is that possible if all important details are predecided?
 
^ Yesss.
When Joss was coming up with the names, he will have said, Which ever way they are onscreen, Liam will have been the first to be named......Character Bios are every single detail of the character thats relevant as they are there for ALL the writers to keep continuity, so Angels human name, as Joss knew he would be delving into his human past WOULD have been top....THEN, when he comes to write the Character Spike, who too would need a Bio, he wouldn't have thought...Ok, i'll call him William, then a few weeks later....ohh, yeah, they are the same name, thats a coincidence....
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As The Watcher stated, they hadn't even named Angel's human name until later seasons. During season one, audiences didn't even know Angel's real human name wasn't Angel or Angelus. As Spike grew to be a popular character, as The Watcher stated, was probably when Joss figured he should start linking them, but I doubt that by the beginning he knew. This is why it's important to know that Spike was supposed to be a minor character.

Also, about your comment about us being naive, we're not. I know both of us truly respect Joss's work and thank him for creating such an amazing world we have message boards to continue talking about various aspects of it, a year after it has ended. Just because our views differ from yours doesn't mean we don't respect them. Nor does it make us naive.
 
OK, then just suppose that Joss came up with 'Liam' at the beginning of season 1 Angel.
Who's point in the 'the name's a coincidence' debate does that further support.
Spike had, by this time, prominently reserved the role of his character, and the beginnings of his back story.
They also knew what the Angel/Spike connection was.
Furthermore, Joss was aware that JM, thus Spike, would be a permanent character by the end of season 4(1 of Angel) and his role in the Buffyverse.
So, with all that in mind, Joss would pick a totally random name that had such a prominent link to Spikes human name.........not at all.
 
Without wanting to add any more frustration to the um 'debate' and to make myself sound simple but...
I honestly think that Joss Whedon picked those 2 names (regardless of when) without realising the connection between them.Then again if that is the case one could argue that Joss has terrible eyesight becuae 'Liam' is also the last part of 'William'.

*backs away*
 
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