Angel - the demon and the soul

[bespangeled]

I'm gonna hate myself for starting such a juicy thread 3 days before I have to leave for a bit.

I have been involved in one debate that has spanned many threads. So here it is.

Angelus was the scourge of Europe, a particularly sadistic demon/vampire. Then he was cursed with a soul.

I think thereafter that both the soul and the demon were active within him, in various combinations. The soul never lost control, but the rat eating stage in particular would lead me to believe that Angel felt a strong need to stay away from humans after he drank that (dead) waiters blood - again the demon pushing to the fore, IMO.

Once he cleaned up and met Buffy, it seems to me that the soul got stronger and the demon was not as much of a concern - which is too bad. Because the fact that Buffy trusted him so completely - one minute of pure happiness - and farewell soul.

So...hell...other stuff. Once he was in LA, I think Angel had to constantly maintain vigilance, make sure that the demon didn't manage to get out. Which he did on occasion - starting with the Doximall. Since the soul was still there - just a bit blissed out - the demon could just make some trouble. (Too much and the soul would have no longer been blissed).

I know there are some folk who believe that when the soul is in charge the demon is basically inactive and no longer a consideration. Angel is completely separate from Angelus. I disagree - I think there is a bridge between the soul and the demon and the traffic goes both ways.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Was Angelus the scourge of Europe, how many knew of him? A few vampire hunters and a couple of friends. That makes him more of an unknown than a scourge.
How would Buffy's feelings for Angel have anything to do with the silly gypsy's curse? It wouldn't, it was down to Angel's feelings.
If there was a bridge between the demon and the soul, then there would have been a force field between the demon and the bridge so the traffic couldn't possibly go bothways. The demon may have seen and felt what happened but it couldn't do anything about what was happening.

 

[bespangeled]

Was Angelus the scourge of Europe, how many knew of him? A few vampire hunters and a couple of friends. That makes him more of an unknown than a scourge.
How would Buffy's feelings for Angel have anything to do with the silly gypsy's curse? It wouldn't, it was down to Angel's feelings.
If there was a bridge between the demon and the soul, then there would have been a force field between the demon and the bridge so the traffic couldn't possibly go bothways. The demon may have seen and felt what happened but it couldn't do anything about what was happening.

Well, I didn't invent the title, and it was used often. I guess after a century off the killing fields, even vamps move on to a new celebrity.

I meant Angel's feelings when Buffy trusted him. (As to the curse - don't get me started) (Except, what the hell did that girl have that made her people so monomaniacal? Did she crap gold coins? )

Yeah - I'd say a force field works as an image, maintained by the soul. But when the soul is out of the picture, or not vigilant enough, or seriously pissed, I'd say the demon can - well, not get loose but get involved. Example - Angel enjoyed the dreams he had of hunting and killing when Penn was in town. That wasn't the soul.

 

[janas]

@bespangeled, Are you saying that the soul could influence the demon?
I'm saying this for years and years and years, but no one listens to me LOL.

but it usually says the opposite, i.e that is the demon that influences the soul, then Angel isn't so different than Angelus.

I think that Angel and Angelus are two separate entities, but don't rule out that there may be a kind of osmosis between soul and demon, and if there is osmosis must be in both directions. But if the soul influences the demon, we can say that Angelus is able to feel love? The canon says no ... but anyway ...

Damn it's too late and I'm sleepy, but I will return on the subject.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Don't mind me, if you want to get started with the 'curse' go for it. I think it was a vengeance spell and not a curse at all. Oh yeah, and it was done by idiots.
Think of the force field as the soul, and Angel's dreams/memories of Angelus' hunting and killing is okay, doing them would be something else.

About the gold coins, would they be the size of a farthing or a florin (similar size to the gold coins of the Aztec in Pirates of the Caribbean? If so, can you say painful?

 

[bespangeled]

Don't mind me, if you want to get started with the 'curse' go for it. I think it was a vengeance spell and not a curse at all. Oh yeah, and it was done by idiots.
Think of the force field as the soul, and Angel's dreams/memories of Angelus' hunting and killing is okay, doing them would be something else.

About the gold coins, would they be the size of a farthing or a florin (similar size to the gold coins of the Aztec in Pirates of the Caribbean? If so, can you say painful?

Feel free to go into details on the idea of a vengeance spell - definitely not OT.

Florins...bloody florins. Poor girl had hemorrhoids the size of a vardo (Rom wagon - because I love to show off! A group of vardos is a kumpania. You can guess from this what I think of the portrayal of the Gypsies. 😡)

 

[white avenger]

Was Angelus the scourge of Europe, how many knew of him? A few vampire hunters and a couple of friends. That makes him more of an unknown than a scourge.

I seem to recall Angel telling Buffy at some point in Season 1 that he had "killed more people than the Plague, and did it with a song in my heart." I also remember Spike saying in Season 2, "We like to talk big, vampires..." Put the two together, and I get the idea that Angelus was more of a legend in his own mind than much else. Sure, he was evil, he loved to scheme and torture even more than he loved to kill, but that doesn't make him either big or bad, just sadistic and cruel.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

When Angel was dealing with Eyghon in "The Dark Age 2x08", he says:

Buffy: You knew that if the demon was in trouble it was gonna jump into
the nearest dead person.

Angel: I put it in danger.

Willow: And it jumped. (stands up)

Angel: (gets up) I've had a demon inside me for a couple hundred
years... (exhales) just waitin' for a good fight.

Buffy: Winner and still champion.

Angel does not appear to hate the demon inside him - he puts it to good use here. It is always available even if it doesn't have control of the entire person at the time. There seems to be a disconnect in attitude - Angel feels the remorse for the killing Angelus did and knows it is part of him but doesn't seem to hate the demon who did the killing.

 

[bespangeled]

I seem to recall Angel telling Buffy at some point in Season 1 that he had "killed more people than the Plague, and did it with a song in my heart." I also remember Spike saying in Season 2, "We like to talk big, vampires..." Put the two together, and I get the idea that Angelus was more of a legend in his own mind than much else. Sure, he was evil, he loved to scheme and torture even more than he loved to kill, but that doesn't make him either big or bad, just sadistic and cruel.

There are Giles comments here and there - wreaking havoc across Europe and nailing a puppy to something - but the tale does grow in the telling.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

It's not like Angel is bipolar or something and has two personalities in his head. Angelus is separate but even with a soul Angel is still a demon, otherwise he'd be human. Angelus' demon still has an influence on Angel. The thoughts pop up but the soul is what guides Angel. Like in s2 of Angel he goes dark and let's the demons influence cloud his judgement. I like to think that every time Angel vamps out it also touches the demon inside and maybe that's why he doesn't like to. Just because someone has a soul doesn't mean they can't be corrupt or give in to the dark side, just look at Faith. So I think knowing that there a demon inside trying to get out and that having a soul doesn't mean he can't be evil, makes his struggle to fight for the good even harder for him.

@bespangeled: thanks! that's what I was trying to get at. having a soul is not a simple black and white change that we see in s2 of Buffy. There's a lot more explored on the Angel show which I love.

 

[thetopher]

To be honest I think blaming a lot of Angel's actions on the demon inside him is a big cop-out. Angel's more interesting than that. 🙂

After Angel got his soul he briefly returned to Darla and tried to go back to his old ways.
Was that the demon influencing him?
Or was it the fact that Angel was utterly alone in the world, lost and didn't understand his place or purpose. He couldn't mix with humans, he didn't want to mix with vampires, so he thought that his only option was to return to what he knew.
To me, that's the actions of a tormented man, I don't think Angelus influences much in the way of Angel's behaviour apart from his thirt for human blood.

Take another example, S2 Angel goes dark, really dark (in a way that Darla doesn't even recognise- very telling that).
We know why he goes dark, because Angel explains it to Lorne in 'Happy Aniversary' and its got little to do with any motivation that Angelus would understand.
Angel gives up on redemption because he doesn't think its attainable for him, not after he, in his own eyes, failed to save Darla and in a way save himself. So he pushes his friends away, forgets the mission and goes after W&H for pure vengeance' sake.

Those are all real, screwed up, human motivations, that make perfect sense to me. I get why Angel went off the rails like that, and I don't see Angelus the demon anywhere in his thought process.

I think the Angelus urges inside him cause Angel to brood, but thats about it.

 

[Robb Stark]

I seem to recall Angel telling Buffy at some point in Season 1 that he had "killed more people than the Plague, and did it with a song in my heart." I also remember Spike saying in Season 2, "We like to talk big, vampires..." Put the two together, and I get the idea that Angelus was more of a legend in his own mind than much else. Sure, he was evil, he loved to scheme and torture even more than he loved to kill, but that doesn't make him either big or bad, just sadistic and cruel.

I don't know, Angelus and Spike had entire groups of people relentlessly chasing them. I mean, look at Holtz. With Spike, look at his and Dru's flight from Prague. I think both were always portrayed as pretty huge villains when soulless prior to the beginning of the series.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Even if there was a hundred people in a hundred groups chasing Angelus and Spike that is still a very small amount of people compared to how many people lived in europe. Holtz was shown to only have about ten in his group when he found out that Angelus might be after his family.

 

[white avenger]

I don't know, Angelus and Spike had entire groups of people relentlessly chasing them. I mean, look at Holtz. With Spike, look at his and Dru's flight from Prague. I think both were always portrayed as pretty huge villains when soulless prior to the beginning of the series.

Holtz was a fanatic obsessed with killing vampires in general, Angelus in particular. That fanaticism became blind obsession when Angelus, in retaliation, killed his family. But Holtz is just one man with a few followers, well financed by several wealthy sponsors, not a general at the head of an army.

And I got the distinct impression from what Angelus said that Spike intentionally stirred up that mob just so he could enjoy a little fists and fangs action. (Apparently, the people that he stirred up brought their friends along to enjoy the slaughter, and there were more than Spike, and possibly Dru, could handle alone)

You don't have to be the scourge of Europe to inspire one fanatic with a small group of followers, or to incite a howling. I think that Angelus had an overblown sense of his infamy, and Angel exploited that, at least a little bit, to make himself more the tragic hero in Buffy's eyes. It would fit in perfectly with his "Harlequin Romance Novel, tragic hero with a dark past, striving to atone for his past sins" image, and young girls eat that stuff up.

And I'm not letting Spike off easily, either. I seriously doubt that even the strongest Spike supporter could deny that soulless Spike was a braggart with an overinflated ego, counterbalanced by the torment of desperately loving someone (Dru) who at best saw him as a poor substitute for her "daddy."

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Holtz was a fanatic obsessed with killing vampires in general, Angelus in particular. That fanaticism became blind obsession when Angelus, in retaliation, killed his family. But Holtz is just one man with a few followers, well financed by several wealthy sponsors, not a general at the head of an army.

And I got the distinct impression from what Angelus said that Spike intentionally stirred up that mob just so he could enjoy a little fists and fangs action. (Apparently, the people that he stirred up brought their friends along to enjoy the slaughter, and there were more than Spike, and possibly Dru, could handle alone)

You don't have to be the scourge of Europe to inspire one fanatic with a small group of followers, or to incite a howling. I think that Angelus had an overblown sense of his infamy, and Angel exploited that, at least a little bit, to make himself more the tragic hero in Buffy's eyes. It would fit in perfectly with his "Harlequin Romance Novel, tragic hero with a dark past, striving to atone for his past sins" image, and young girls eat that stuff up.

And I'm not letting Spike off easily, either. I seriously doubt that even the strongest Spike supporter could deny that soulless Spike was a braggart with an overinflated ego, counterbalanced by the torment of desperately loving someone (Dru) who at best saw him as a poor substitute for her "daddy."

Hmm, that's not really supported by the shows though, especially AtS. Wesley states several times that Angelus is the most infamous vampire on record, with Spike a close second. Angelus is also treated as a celebrity by the vampires and demons gathered in that bar during the Beast's blocking of the sun, and in the episode "Salvage," several of them back off upon seeing him approach a young woman they were about to eat. Similarly, Spike is the subject of that female Watcher's thesis in "Checkpoint," which isn't surprising considering his Slayer kill count. I'm sure both of them inflate their reputation, but not by much.

And I really don't think Angel was exploiting his infamy to take advantage of Buffy. She's the one who has to coax his true nature as a vampire and his history with Drusilla out of him. He seems more inclined to hide out of shame then brag to her; she arrives at the "Tragic Hero" conclusion herself, and even then, I think that view of him vanishes by season 3 to be replaced by a more realistic one.

 

[thetopher]

Holtz was obsessed with killing Darla, not Angelus remember.
He also incidently killed thousands of other vampires during that Europe wide hunt.
Sure sounds like an army to me, not just a small gang of people.

As a general rule the more important/fearsome a vampire is the easier it is for him to lead/recruit other vamps.
Angelus does this pretty effortlessly in S2 of Buffy (taking over Spike's gang) and when he shows up in LA- other vampires fear and admire him, its not just in his own mind.

And the theory that Angel 'bigged up' his reputation to Buffy is something I find not only deeply out of character but also borderline laughable.
He sure knows how to impress a girl...

'Hey, Buffy, you wanna know how many nuns I've kiled- 'cause I've gotta tell ya, its in the three figure range. I'm that evil. Do you love me now?'

That seems much more like a Spike thing to do, he loves his vamp rep and makes no bones about how 'Big Bad' he is, even with a soul.
He's the braggard with the swelled head, not Angel.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

So Holtz killed thousands of vampires, over how long a time period?

 

[thetopher]

So Holtz killed thousands of vampires, over how long a time period?

Actually, looking at the script again I'm mistaken.
Holtz pursued Angelus and Darla for only nine years and during that time incidentally killed 378 other vampires.
That was after they massacred Holtz' family, so we can presume that Holtz hunted vampires long before hand and had enough of a rep and following to not only pursue Darla and Angelus, but make himself enough of a niusance for them to respond in kind.

So lets say that Holtz probably killed...say 6-800 vamps in his lifetime, that seems like a fair assessment.

Anyway, that all still sounds like the two of them were pursued by a small army of vampire hunters, not a mob or rabble.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Fair enough, but if you think about what he did before Darla and Angelus, the 6-800 the 'in his lifetime' might mean 18 years that is less than a vampire a week. Or the 378in 9 years, thats 42 per year.
That sounds boring for a small army of vampire hunters. Were vampires so few or just vary far apart? Maybe he was a vampire hunter but those numbers infer he led a crap rabble of vampire hunters.
I seem to remember Darla and Angelus being trapped by the in a barn, Darla escaped on a horse which led Angelus by himself against as you put it a small army of vampire hunters. And they didn't kill him even then, if Angelus got near to death it would probably have been by his laughing hysterically at them.

 

[white avenger]

And the theory that Angel 'bigged up' his reputation to Buffy is something I find not only deeply out of character but also borderline laughable.
He sure knows how to impress a girl...

'Hey, Buffy, you wanna know how many nuns I've kiled- 'cause I've gotta tell ya, its in the three figure range. I'm that evil. Do you love me now?'

That seems much more like a Spike thing to do, he loves his vamp rep and makes no bones about how 'Big Bad' he is, even with a soul.
He's the braggart with the swelled head, not Angel.

That is EXACTLY the kind of thing that Angel would say to impress Buffy. "Look how bad I was back then, all the evil things that I did, the nuns that I killed. Look at me now, how brave, noble, stalwart, and tall I am. Look at all the changes I've made, just for you. Do you love me now?" Pure Harlequin in the highest order.

Angel knows very well that Buffy loves him, and loves him with all of the blind devotion that only a teen aged girl can feel for her first love. And, less we forget, this is the girl who was the first one to come up with the concept that Angelus was a totally different person than Angel, so anything that Angelus had done in no way applied to Angel, the man with the tortured soul, who she loved.

And you're right, that is a "Spike" thing to do, but certainly not a "William" thing to do. Almost certainly, something that he learned from his "Yoda."