Angel Vs. Spike(contains SPOILERS for both shows up to current events)

N

No I am Doyle

1 Angry Lawyer
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I was thinking about the debates over who, of the 2 Vamps, is considered more of a champion, ect. I thought I would start a thread compiling factal data.
First, both have made sacrifices. Spike gave his life for the world(not knowing, but he knew the risk). Angel has given the 2 people he loved the most up for their benefit(both so that they may live longer or happier lives). The sacrifice of one's life (not to belittle such a sacrifice) is one that does end quickly(die and the suffering is over, usually), while Angel has had to live with the knowledge of what he has lost every day since. I don't feel that it make either one truly more noble than the other, but Angel's would have been and has had longer lasting implications.
I will let someone else take the floor. Please remember to stick with facts over opinions(this is the real challenge).
::bat::
 
Angel has done a lot more to redeem himself then Spike...I don't think that Spike really cared bout people on BtVS,he cared just about a Slayer...
 
oh boy an all new war against Angel fans and Spike fans.......

I think Angel is more a champion, he has done more good for the world, actually battles for the PTB(whereas Spike doesnt), and saves the world so that everyone can live. And knows when he has to sacarfice a loved one so that everyone still lives.

Whereas Spike does 99.9% of the things he does(good) for Buffy and so he can get with Buffy and make her happy.
 
Not anymore he doesn't. Right before he died he told Buffy that he knew he wasn't her true love, but he still followed her into the mouth of hell. As well, after Fred died, his decision to stay was based on A. what he knew that was what Fred would have wanted, and B. because he knew it was the right thing to do.
 
No said:
I was thinking about the debates Angel has given the 2 people he loved the most up for their benefit(both so that they may live longer or happier lives).
Click to expand...
The problem with that argument is that Angel didn't just give up Connor. He joined W&H and altered the memories of his closest friends to do so. Cordy called it mind rape and she was correct. Angel violated his friends in order to save his son. He might have saved Connor and given him a better life, but he did so at a price. Angel did an bad deed in order to create a "good" outcome. He suffers because he lost his son but that isn't the point. The contest isn't how can I make myself suffer the most while making one other person happy. Spike didn't hurt people to accomplish the good that he did once he had a soul. I think Spike is a better person, but then you don't have to be a good man to fight for justice so maybe that's not the point.
 
That's true, but Spike isn't necessarily better. Angel has had poor judgement calls in the past, but the Powers still backed him. Even in You're Welcome, Cordelia said that the Powers owed her one and wanted to get their champion back on track. Spike has just joined the ranks.
 
humm, i think that each one is great on their wn qualities, but one isn't better champion than the other or vice-vers.
spike did seek is soul for buffy, but as he said in s7: "I'm not asking you for anything. When I say I love you, it's not because I want you, or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me.", so he's redemption wasen't so selfish as some people said, he loved her, but didn't ask for anyting in return, that's redemption, giving without asking anything for a change.
But with angel, i don't agree with many of the things he did, for ex: when he left buffy, he tought it was for her good, and for her to have a normal life, but she didn't want a normal life (at least in the sense of being without him) so i think that altough he mitgt have the right intentions, he just did the tinghs he tough it was best without askint the people involved their oppinions (that also applies for the "mind rape" of the connor thing.
 
well if the whole altering of minds, Buffy and co. were also mind raped by the monks so they could protect the key from Glory, Angel only thought he was doing the right thing, giving Connor a happy normal child hood and taking away some of the pain from the gang. Angel just does what he thinks is right.
 
yes, he thought he was doing the right thing, but he didn't ask any of his friends if they like their mind altered, becuase i doubt they said yes.. i mean, memories is what makes us, this is similar the the willow/tara situation, where she altered her mind just so they didn't fight, in willow's poin of view, she was making tara happy, but that does't mean it's the right ting to do.
 
I know it wasnt the right thing to do, there is a lot of mind raping going on in Buffy and Angel isnt there.
 
Mind rape or not,it didn't affect his friends.He did the right thing.
[Guys,two words: Spoiler Tags!!😉]
And about Spike getting his soul for Buffy,..always the same argument.Angel did the same thing,he was a happy human and became a vampire with a soul for her,to save her life.
I think they are both champions,in different ways,but they still are,I don't think one is better than the other.
 
i'm sorry but i don't agree with you magui, that wasn't the right tingh to do:
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he messed with his friend memories
i know that he didn't meen harm but cordy was right.
just because you do something bad with a good intension doesn't mean it's right.. ::dk::
 
We've perhaps seen more championish behavior from Angel, but Spike has had his soul for far less time, and has made great strides. I don't see a need to break it down as to who is more of champion.
 
WatcherWes i agree with you, angel got his soul for longer time and did many good deeds, but i think spike is also trying to do the right thing, he's still "finding his path", now without the sense of trying to make buffy happy. But on the other side angel is still making many mistakes (again with the right intentions but wrong actions..) but then again that's a thing i like about him, verybody makes mistakes, thats part of being alive..errr or dead.. i guess..:s
 
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