Angel's Atonement

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I have a great discussion question which, hopefully, will spark some entertaining debate.

How much of Angel is fighting to become human rather than to atone for his past sins?

 

[white avenger]

Well, the reason that Angel left Sunnydale and Buffy, aside from the fact that he seemed to fear losing control of himself and, with Buffy's eager assistance, lose his soul for a second time, was so that he could somehow atone for all of the pain and death that he had inflicted over the past couple of hundred years. As far as becoming human, that possibility didn't even enter into the mix until he accidentally discovered the Shanshu Prophecy scroll some time later. In fact, he even went so far as to reject humanity when he regained it in "I Will Remember You."

I don't really think, though, that, from that point on, it is ever really made clear exactly whether his ultimate goal was to attempt to somehow balance or even tip the scales of his life back to the positive side, or if he was only doing that in hopes of being rewarded for his actions by becoming human once more. Hopefully the former.

 

[Bearstrangler]

My take on it is this, (very simply put)

Angel buggers off to LA to getaway from Buffy to do some serious brooding. I don't think he had any intention of fighting evil/helping the helpless etc until Doyle shows up and gives him something else to do and think about other than Buffy, i.e helping the helpless and fighting evil.

Then basically throughout the course of the show Angel realises that he will never be able to undo the harm he's caused and no matter how much evil he fights and people he saves he will never forgive himself, so he's not doing it for atonement or forgiveness as he doesn't want it.

As for being rewarded and made human is concerned he tried that as white avenger said in "I will remember you", but soon realised it would not remove his guilt, would probably just do Buffy's head in and he would lose his vamp powers etc so he wouldn't be able to do the only thing that slightly alleviated his guilt"¦ fight evil. So he doesn't really do it for that either.

I think it dawns on him that the nearest he could ever get to forgiving himself is if he dedicated the rest of his existence to fighting evil and dies doing it, not for any reward or balancing his personal good/evil scales.

I'm not a huge Angel fan btw so that may all be total bo^&ocks !

 

[Kana]

My take on it is this, (very simply put)

Angel buggers off to LA to getaway from Buffy to do some serious brooding. I don't think he had any intention of fighting evil/helping the helpless etc until Doyle shows up and gives him something else to do and think about other than Buffy, i.e helping the helpless and fighting evil.

Actually, Angel was fighting evil before Doyle turned up. Even Doyle referred to him as a champion already. However upon meeting Doyle, he was to become a more effective warrior for the cause.

Then basically throughout the course of the show Angel realises that he will never be able to undo the harm he's caused and no matter how much evil he fights and people he saves he will never forgive himself, so he's not doing it for atonement or forgiveness as he doesn't want it.

Yeah, I agree, but I also think by getting personally involved like he did, he connected to those he was trying to save. It wasn't simply about saving souls in order to save his own but helping others to help himself, to help others etc. Which is of benefit to both himself and others (see Jenny's Calender's justification for Angel's amends).

As for being rewarded and made human is concerned he tried that as white avenger said in "I will remember you", but soon realised it would not remove his guilt, would probably just do Buffy's head in and he would lose his vamp powers etc so he wouldn't be able to do the only thing that slightly alleviated his guilt"¦ fight evil. So he doesn't really do it for that either.

I think Angel wants forgiveness more than simply being human. The oracles very vaguely implied that becoming human in that instance had nothing to do with he PTBs and if they were to award him humanity it would be because he earned it. As Marcus, the paedophile vampire said, he doesn't want the easy way out.

I think it dawns on him that the nearest he could ever get to forgiving himself is if he dedicated the rest of his existence to fighting evil and dies doing it, not for any reward or balancing his personal good/evil scales.

I think that's part of it but I think Angel fights also because he genuinely believes in what he's doing. See Epiphany and Deep Down for Angel's fighting philosophies which are more to do with the people he's trying to save and less about self indulgent brooding.

I'm not a huge Angel fan btw so that may all be total bo^&ocks !

Your opinion counts as much as anyone's. 🙂

 

[Bearstrangler]

Some good points there Kana, I did think that the fact ive only watched it all once or twice (unlike the half a dozen times ive seen btvs through) would probably mean ive forgotten quite a bit.

So he was fighting evil before Doyle arrived? I cant remember im afraid but in btvs he pretty much only did it to keep Buffy safe.

 

[Kana]

Some good points there Kana, I did think that the fact ive only watched it all once or twice (unlike the half a dozen times ive seen btvs through) would probably mean ive forgotten quite a bit.

So he was fighting evil before Doyle arrived? I cant remember im afraid but in btvs he pretty much only did it to keep Buffy safe.

Not a problem. Anyway in the first scene he saves the girl in the alley. When he's talking to Doyle (and when we see the fact that he's already got his gadgets and weapons) he implies he's been doing it for a little while. What he wasn't doing was connecting to the people he was saving.