Angel's curse-did Angel know?

[Chosen Enemy]

Well, I'm not asking if Angel knew that he had a curse when he slept with Buffy and lost his soul. I'm asking if he knew what this curse was about? Had he ever thought about what this curse means, how will he lose his soul? I mean, he knew he could lose his soul. But do you think he ever wondered how it would be possible?

Because figuring that if he knew that if happiness is the trigger to losing his soul, he wouldn't have slept with Buffy. Unless he did know, of course... which is where I leave it for even more discussion on the topic.

But if he didn't know what the trigger was, why didn't he ever try to find out more about the curse? The curse he's been living with for so long, trying to avoide what could happen if he triggered... something. But he didn't even know what this 'something' was. Why?

 

[FaithsFollower]

You make interesting threads. 😀

I feel that he didn't bother to find out the logistics of how he will lose his soul because he never thought that he'd be in the position of actually losing it?

I mean, we know Angel. He spent crazy amounts of time brooding and generally being moody that of course it wouldn't occur to him that he would ever lose it. Then Buffy happened. Even then, I assume that he never figured that things would go so far with her. After all, he's a vampire; she's the Slayer. In S1 he was very much inclined to help her by guiding her, protecting her.

I pretty much chalk it - Bangel sex - all up to this statement:

"It just happened!"

 

[Kean]

I don't think he had any clue whatsoever that their was a clause to his curse. Any time he spoke about it he did so stating that he was cursed with a soul, that it was intended to torment him. That was the purpose of his soul as far as he was concerned. It was to make him suffer for all that the demon had done. As he said, having done what Angelus did and to care was torture, a torture he firmly believed he deserved to feel. That is why he never sought out information about the curse, he believed he knew its purpose already. He believed he was living its purpose.

 

[Ripper666]

I think he knew that he will loose his soul when he experience a moment of full happieness. But I think he didn't knew that this moment is/was/will be the moment when he sleeps with Buffy. I think he was as surprised as Buffy.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think he had any clue whatsoever that their was a clause to his curse. Any time he spoke about it he did so stating that he was cursed with a soul, that it was intended to torment him. That was the purpose of his soul as far as he was concerned. It was to make him suffer for all that the demon had done. As he said, having done what Angelus did and to care was torture, a torture he firmly believed he deserved to feel. That is why he never sought out information about the curse, he believed he knew its purpose already. He believed he was living its purpose.

It was pretty obvious that Angel didn't know anything about the "escape clause" on his curse, because if he did, he wouldn't have taken such a risk with the girl who he loved. I can accept that he believed that his soul was a punishment, and that he saw it as such. What I CAN'T accept is that he needed any such curse to make him a good man, to feel guilt and remorse for what he had done, or to inspire him to continue trying to, in some small way, atone for all of the pain, humiliation, and death that he was responsible for. If Spike didn't need a chip to be a better man, if it, in fact, took away the freedom to decide to do the right thing because it WAS the right thing, rather than to avoid super migraine headaches, then Angel didn't need any such curse to reenforce his pain and regret.

Angel didn't try to nullify the happiness clause in his curse because it either never occurred to him that there might actually be a way to do so, or he didn't want to take the risk of losing his soul altogether in the process of changing its boundaries. The soul was Angel's curse, the happiness clause was an escape mechanism. The soul itself should have been what inspired Angel to do good, not the fear of losing it. The fact is, Angel just, plain, bothered to question hand that fate had dealt him.

 

[Kean]

It was pretty obvious that Angel didn't know anything about the "escape clause" on his curse, because if he did, he wouldn't have taken such a risk with the girl who he loved. I can accept that he believed that his soul was a punishment, and that he saw it as such. What I CAN'T accept is that he needed any such curse to make him a good man, to feel guilt and remorse for what he had done, or to inspire him to continue trying to, in some small way, atone for all of the pain, humiliation, and death that he was responsible for.

The verse presented the soul as conscience, without that, without knowing and feeling something was wrong, what impetus would Angelus have had to change?

If Spike didn't need a chip to be a better man, if it, in fact, took away the freedom to decide to do the right thing because it WAS the right thing, rather than to avoid super migraine headaches, then Angel didn't need any such curse to reenforce his pain and regret.

I think the show was quite emphatic in showing that not only did the chip not make Spike a man, let alone a better man, but that it was only once he was ensoulled that he began to do the right thing for the right reasons. Even then, he still messed up a lot.

 

[white avenger]

The verse presented the soul as conscience, without that, without knowing and feeling something was wrong, what impetus would Angelus have had to change?



I think the show was quite emphatic in showing that not only did the chip not make Spike a man, let alone a better man, but that it was only once he was ensoulled that he began to do the right thing for the right reasons. Even then, he still messed up a lot.

I agree, the soul is the equivalent of a conscience or sense of guilt in the Buffyverse. That's precisely my point. As long as the happiness clause remained active in conjunction with Angel's soul, he had a way out, an escape clause. If things got so bad that he just wanted out, all that he had to do was go and get a happy somewhere. If you recall, he tried that with Darla in Season 2. Instead of Angelus, he got Connor (probably worse punishment, but that's not my point.) Once Angel knew about the happiness clause, it was like giving a prisoner the key to his cell. From that point on, the soul and its resultant guilt were still punishment, but Angel knew that there was a way out, if he chose to take it. Would he have ever done so? I believe that's what happened when he slept with Darla, but whether or not that is true, the point is there was the possibility of that escape from the eternal fight. He didn't have that before Season 2, His soul was a true prison, with no possibility of escape. The knowledge of the happiness clause gave Angel the key to his cell. Being a good man, living with his guilt, and trying to do the right thing to make some small restitution for what he had done, was suddenly an option. The possibility of making it all go away, whether he ever chose to take it or not, existed. If the load ever got to be more than he could bear, he could make it all go away.

And, just as Spike's chip, in and of itself, never made him a better man, nor did it even give him a slight incentive to be one, so the happiness clause in Angel's curse should not have been any incentive for him to do good. Once those facts were realized, the chip, and the escape clause, served no purpose whatsoever. Spike didn't kill because he knew that doing so would be wrong, not out of fear of pain. Likewise, Angel should be able to fulfill his own mission without having to contend with or depend on, a way to walk away with no regrets. The soul and the desire to continue being better men were all that either Angel or Spike should need. Electronic hardware and magical loopholes were unnecessary, and should be discarded.

And Spike's not the only one who messed up, or even the one who messed up the most.

 

[Kean]

I agree, the soul is the equivalent of a conscience or sense of guilt in the Buffyverse. That's precisely my point. As long as the happiness clause remained active in conjunction with Angel's soul, he had a way out, an escape clause. If things got so bad that he just wanted out, all that he had to do was go and get a happy somewhere. If you recall, he tried that with Darla in Season 2. Instead of Angelus, he got Connor (probably worse punishment, but that's not my point.) Once Angel knew about the happiness clause, it was like giving a prisoner the key to his cell. From that point on, the soul and its resultant guilt were still punishment, but Angel knew that there was a way out, if he chose to take it. Would he have ever done so? I believe that's what happened when he slept with Darla, but whether or not that is true, the point is there was the possibility of that escape from the eternal fight. He didn't have that before Season 2, His soul was a true prison, with no possibility of escape. The knowledge of the happiness clause gave Angel the key to his cell. Being a good man, living with his guilt, and trying to do the right thing to make some small restitution for what he had done, was suddenly an option. The possibility of making it all go away, whether he ever chose to take it or not, existed. If the load ever got to be more than he could bear, he could make it all go away.

And, just as Spike's chip, in and of itself, never made him a better man, nor did it even give him a slight incentive to be one, so the happiness clause in Angel's curse should not have been any incentive for him to do good. Once those facts were realized, the chip, and the escape clause, served no purpose whatsoever. Spike didn't kill because he knew that doing so would be wrong, not out of fear of pain. Likewise, Angel should be able to fulfill his own mission without having to contend with or depend on, a way to walk away with no regrets. The soul and the desire to continue being better men were all that either Angel or Spike should need. Electronic hardware and magical loopholes were unnecessary, and should be discarded.

And Spike's not the only one who messed up, or even the one who messed up the most.

Oh, okay. There were some crossed wires there, I thought you were saying that Angel should have wanted to be a good man while soulles, and that Spike didn't need his chip to be "good". Couldn't disagree more with either sentiment. 🙂

I do agree that the clause shouldn't be what pushes Angel to be "good". If I'm honest, I don't believe that it was. I think ultimately, it was Buffy. She gave him a sense of worth that had eluded him his entire life, human or vampire. I think knowing her taught him about fighting because it is the right thing to do. Regardless of how people treat you or even what you think of you. You fight because you can, because you must. I think knowing Buffy had a similar effect on Spike, too.

 

[white avenger]

I do agree that the clause shouldn't be what pushes Angel to be "good". If I'm honest, I don't believe that it was. I think ultimately, it was Buffy. She gave him a sense of worth that had eluded him his entire life, human or vampire. I think knowing her taught him about fighting because it is the right thing to do. Regardless of how people treat you or even what you think of you. You fight because you can, because you must. I think knowing Buffy had a similar effect on Spike, too.

Totally agree. I might even go so far as to say, despite what canon dictates, that the Gypsies and the Cave Demons only gave Angel and Spike, respectively, their consciences and senses of guilt. Buffy gave both men their souls. I might even go further and say that Buffy actually WAS their souls in a very real way.

 

[Kean]

Buffy gave both men their souls. I might even go further and say that Buffy actually WAS their souls in a very real way.

Personally, I wouldn't go that far. But I do think she should them what they could be, if they were courageous enough. I think Angel always had the desire to do good in him, he tried several times during the hundred years before Whistler came to find him. What he didn't have was someone to show him that it doesn't matter if the world wants you, if you can help, you help.

 

[white avenger]

I think Angel always had the desire to do good in him, he tried several times during the hundred years before Whistler came to find him.

I hear the band playing, Miss K. We could have a great dance on this subject, but it would hijack this thread all to hell and gone, and I'm trying really hard to abstain from that these days.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I don't think he had any clue whatsoever that their was a clause to his curse. Any time he spoke about it he did so stating that he was cursed with a soul, that it was intended to torment him. That was the purpose of his soul as far as he was concerned. It was to make him suffer for all that the demon had done... That is why he never sought out information about the curse, he believed he knew its purpose already. He believed he was living its purpose.

I agree with this completely, well said!

I think ultimately, it was Buffy. She gave him a sense of worth that had eluded him his entire life, human or vampire. I think knowing her taught him about fighting because it is the right thing to do... You fight because you can, because you must. I think knowing Buffy had a similar effect on Spike, too.

Exactly--I was saying the same thing in the thread comparing souled Angel to souled Spike. I think the above easily applies to both vampires.

Even then, (Spike) still messed up a lot.

If we say that Spike has been "messing up" with his soul, then I'd say that Angel has been a disaster. 😉 Between doing absolutely nothing for years, letting that man die and then feeding off of him in the 70's, killing Drogyn, Twlight...

Spoiler

Killing Giles, (depending upon how much you believe he's responsible)...

Just saying...!

Kean agrees: That Spike messing up line was said in a kind of "So's your face" tone when I thought WA was trying to Spike was flawless. Believe me, I am fully versed in Angel's failures.

Ahh ok. 🙂 Knee jerk reaction, you never know!!

 

[dj651]

Does Angel ever say that he even knew it was possible for him to lose his soul? If he did, I can't remember.