Angel's Intentions...

[Gum Gnome33]

In the finale of season 4 when Lilah is trying to woo Angel, hoping he'll join W&H, she informs him that people are dying in Sunnydale and then hands him a folder and amulet which she says could really help the slayer. Angel responds: "Buffy can handle herself," and prepares to walk out, seemingly unaffected by this information. It isn't until Lilah shows Angel what Connor is about to do via the news that he makes his deal with her.

So here are my questions:
-Do you think Angel was really going to walk away from all of that crucial information?

-If so, would he have later tried to obtain the amulet without the aid of W&H? Or did he really not harbor enough concern toward that which was potentially happening in Buffy's life, at least compared to the undesirable possibility of working at W&H?

-Do you think perhaps Angel didn't believe that Lilah really had anything that could help Buffy; that it was all smoke and mirrors in order to get his attention?

-Or do you think that Angel believed in Buffy so strongly that he couldn't be convinced that she needed any help in fighting her battles? (But keep in mind that Willow had already told him that things were bad there, and that Faith had gone back to SD with her in order to help out).

I'm particularly interested to hear what Bangel fans have to say but I don't mean for this to turn into a 'ship war! I just think my view might be a bit skewed toward the "he would have left it alone" theory, partially because I don't ship Bangel, and I'm wondering what arguments to the contrary exist out there, relationship preferences aside!

 

[orpheusxi]

I think he thought she could handle herself because she's done so in the past on more than one occasion. Although the information was crucial I'm assuming he was prepared to walk out because W&H cant be trusted.

 

[brinkster130]

-Do you think Angel was really going to walk away from all of that crucial information?

No. I'm sure he would have physically walked away from Lilah but I highly doubt he would have ignored the information. There is absolutely no evidence to show that Angel doesn't care about Buffy's well being, he just didn't want to jump into bed with the enemy at the mention of Buffy's name.

-If so, would he have later tried to obtain the amulet without the aid of W&H? Or did he really not harbor enough concern toward that which was potentially happening in Buffy's life, at least compared to the undesirable possibility of working at W&H?

Possibly, depending on how much information about the amulet he had. Why would he trust them? After everything they have done, I doubt Angel is just going to take their word for it and allow them to use his feelings about Buffy to manipulate him. Of course he cared about Buffy and her well being - there is nothing to prove otherwise.

-Do you think perhaps Angel didn't believe that Lilah really had anything that could help Buffy; that it was all smoke and mirrors in order to get his attention?

I bet that thought crossed his mind. This was W&H, since when did they want to help him or anyone he cared about.

-Or do you think that Angel believed in Buffy so strongly that he couldn't be convinced that she needed any help in fighting her battles? (But keep in mind that Willow had already told him that things were bad there, and that Faith had gone back to SD with her in order to help out).

He has seen her in action and knows how many times she saved the world, there is no reason for him to doubt her abilities as a slayer. Having spoken to both Willow and Faith, I think it's safe to assume that if things took a turn for the worse and they needed back up that one of them would call him.

Angel running off to Sunnydale every time someone mentions the fact that Buffy is in danger (which is all the time since she is the slayer) wouldn't be helpful in any way. Buffy can handle her own without the detraction of him. Not to mention it would make it pretty clear to his enemies that she is his weak spot and could potentially make things more dangerous for her.

I'm particularly interested to hear what Bangel fans have to say but I don't mean for this to turn into a 'ship war! I just think my view might be a bit skewed toward the "he would have left it alone" theory, partially because I don't ship Bangel, and I'm wondering what arguments to the contrary exist out there, relationship preferences aside!

To be honest, I don't see how is actions suggest anything relationship-wise. All they show to me is that he is going to think things through before acting, especially when untrustworthy people are involved.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Not to mention it would make it pretty clear to his enemies that she is his weak spot and could potentially make things more dangerous for her.

Good point; I never really thought of it that way. It's true that he certainly had to pick and choose when to come back lest she look weak.

To be honest, I don't see how is actions suggest anything relationship-wise. All they show to me is that he is going to think things through before acting, especially when untrustworthy people are involved.

Oh all I meant is that I think that the relationship preferences can skew one's view of this particular scene. For example a Spuffy such as myself could use it as evidence that Bangel were really "over," or that he felt less for her than he used to--given that the information didn't immediately make him surrender to Lilah. I just wanted to think of some reasons why that wouldn't necessarily be the case, which you definitely provided!

 

[white avenger]

-Do you think Angel was really going to walk away from all of that crucial information?

Almost certainly he was. Angel had had dealings with Wolfram & Hart for long enough to know full well that, if they weren't lying, they were manipulating the truth to suit their own purposes. I seriously doubt that he believed that they had anything that would actually be of any value to Buffy in her fight. He even pretty much told Buffy that very thing when he gave her the file and the amulet.


-If so, would he have later tried to obtain the amulet without the aid of W&H? Or did he really not harbor enough concern toward that which was potentially happening in Buffy's life, at least compared to the undesirable possibility of working at W&H?

As stated above, I don't think that Angel had the least amount of faith in anything that Lilah had to say about what was going on in Sunnydale. That includes the file and the amulet. Most likely he figured that the whole, "You won, we're packing up and leaving town. You can have it all" thing was some sort of scheme, and the amulet was either trash or some kind of trap for the wearer.


-Do you think perhaps Angel didn't believe that Lilah really had anything that could help Buffy; that it was all smoke and mirrors in order to get his attention?

Pretty much, yeah.


-Or do you think that Angel believed in Buffy so strongly that he couldn't be convinced that she needed any help in fighting her battles? (But keep in mind that Willow had already told him that things were bad there, and that Faith had gone back to SD with her in order to help out).

I think that Angel had total faith (no pun intended) in the fact that, if one Slayer was awesome, two Slayers would be totally unbeatable. Faith had already gone to help. I really don't think that he felt that there was any real need for him to be there, especially since he and Buffy apparently had some sort of agreement about not infringing on each other's territory anymore (remember they "had a place" somewhere between LA and Sunnydale where they met, as was mentioned in early Season 6, and I'm assuming that their "place" still existed. Maybe they even got together there regularly for picnics during the rare slack moments, but Joss just never mentioned it)

So, why did he wind up going back to Sunnydale anyhow, despite all of that? Simple.

Connor.

Angel might not trust the evil law firm to give him the straight scoop on the goings on in Sunnydale, but he knew beyond a doubt that if there was anyone anywhere capable of covering up what Connor had done and giving him a chance for a new, normal, happy life, they were the ones who could do it. Angel didn't believe that Buffy and Faith needed his help, but he was certain that Connor did, or at least he needed help that Angel could provide. The bottom line is, Buffy, Sunnydale, and the First Evil had very little to do with Angel's decision to take over Wolfram & Hart. That was almost certainly all for Connor's benefit, and if there was any risk involved, he was the one who would be taking it. Connor would be safe.

So, why did Angel actually show up in Sunnydale? Well, he already had the file and this amulet, they might actually be of some help, so, why not? He probably looked at it as just getting away from town for a few days. As I said earlier, he told Buffy that he didn't consider the source of the information reliable. And the amulet? Well, he intended to wear that himself, another case of that "if there is gonna be a risk to take, Ol' Angel's gonna be the one taking it" logic. Then he pops in just in tome to see Buffy subdivide Caleb, which once more strengthens his faith (no pun intended for the second time) in her and her ability to handle the situation. As long as he's there, might as well get in a little smooching, and, by the way, leave that file and amulet, then hightail it back to the big city before sunrise, and think about Buffy, cookie dough, Spike, and...what was that about a second front? Oh, well, it couldn't have been too important, or Buffy would have sealed it with a kiss. Time better spent in the W&H garage checking out all those cool cars.

Does anyone here really, truly believe that Angel would have left Sunnydale if he didn't have absolute faith (no pun intended for the third time) in Buffy's ability to get the job done? This is Angel we're talking about here. Angel, the meddler, the stalker, the lurker. Nothing would have gotten him out of town if he didn't honestly believe that he really wasn't needed there.

 

[Dagenspear]

I think at that particular moment, Angel had much more important things on his plate to worry about. That's not to say that he doesn't still care about Buffy. He did, and still does. Nor is meant to say that he wouldn't try to help. He would. But Angel's priorities had changed A LOT in 4 years.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Does anyone here really, truly believe that Angel would have left Sunnydale if he didn't have absolute faith (no pun intended for the third time) in Buffy's ability to get the job done? This is Angel we're talking about here. Angel, the meddler, the stalker, the lurker. Nothing would have gotten him out of town if he didn't honestly believe that he really wasn't needed there.

See, this is what bugs me about Angel. Sure Buffy could get the job done. He'd seen it before. But when he left for LA, he had done quite a lot to help her. In the first place, who's to say that she would have survived all of her battles without him? But looking forward, who was to say that she didn't, or wouldn't, need all the help she could get? She's a slayer. That means she is constantly in danger. Statistically, slayers tend not to make it to 30. They usually don't have an ensouled vampire helping them out. Buffy was different. But without Angel, she was the only one in the scooby gang with muscle and when times got really tough who's to say that she wouldn't continue to need him? Why should Angel have assumed that she wouldn't? When he left her he was either acknowledging that she would have been just fine without him for the past 3 years, or for some bizarre reason thought that even though she'd needed him before she wouldn't in the future, or he didn't care enough, (something I can't really believe).
This is one of those times when I have to pull the "he left because the writers needed to give him his own show" card, otherwise I start to really dislike the character.

 

[Kean]

See, this is what bugs me about Angel. Sure Buffy could get the job done. He'd seen it before. But when he left for LA, he had done quite a lot to help her. In the first place, who's to say that she would have survived all of her battles without him? But looking forward, who was to say that she didn't, or wouldn't, need all the help she could get? She's a slayer. That means she is constantly in danger. Statistically, slayers tend not to make it to 30. They usually don't have an ensouled vampire helping them out. Buffy was different. But without Angel, she was the only one in the scooby gang with muscle and when times got really tough who's to say that she wouldn't continue to need him? Why should Angel have assumed that she wouldn't? When he left her he was either acknowledging that she would have been just fine without him for the past 3 years, or for some bizarre reason thought that even though she'd needed him before she wouldn't in the future, or he didn't care enough, (something I can't really believe).
This is one of those times when I have to pull the "he left because the writers needed to give him his own show" card, otherwise I start to really dislike the character.

In Angel and Buffy's defense here, when he does leave he does so after Buffy single handedly devised a plan to stop an Ascension. She had defeated the Master, Spike, Drusilla, and Angelus in battle. By the age of 18 she had stopped the Apocalypse at least 4 or 5 times. She'd died, thwarted prophecies and been to Hell and back. And she was still standing.

Angel had exactly zero reason to believe Buffy needed him for slaying. Was he an asset to her? Absolutely. But did her success hinge on his presence? Hell no.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

In Angel and Buffy's defense here, when he does leave he does so after Buffy single handedly devised a plan to stop an Ascension. She had defeated the Master, Spike, Drusilla, and Angelus in battle. By the age of 18 she had stopped the Apocalypse at least 4 or 5 times. She'd died, thwarted prophecies and been to Hell and back. And she was still standing.

See I'd argue that in all of those examples, her success depended greatly on Angel. Against the mayor, she needed Angel to help kill and ward off the mayor's army. Had he not been there, she couldn't have gone ahead with her plan because it would have been up to Willow, Oz, Wesley, and Xander alone to fight the mayor's vamps. And many more people would have died. It's debatable for sure but I think that Buffy wouldn't have been able to go ahead with that plan.
In Becoming II, she couldn't defeat Angelus and Dru without extra muscle, which is why she had to accept Spike's offer. She couldn't have done it alone.
And with the master, sure she defeated him alone but that was after he'd killed her. Had Xander and Angel not arrived when they did, she'd have stayed dead.
The whole idea was that Buffy was so successful because she was a slayer with friends. One of those friends, in every season, was a very powerful being--in later seasons, more than one. In season 4 she needed Riley's help. In season 5 and on she needed Spike and Willow.

The thing is: I don't want to diss Angel, I really don't. (And [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] I hope you're not upset that I'm calling your fave guy into question; I know I get upset when it's done to me!) In any case, I think he's a noble character and that he did try to do what was right for Buffy. Which is why I've just never been able to wrap my head around the fact that he left. To me it was undeniably better for Buffy for him to be there, by her side, and I think there are lots of examples to prove that. I wish the writers had given him a better reason for going off and starting his own "show," rather than retcon the idea that she had needed him for the past 3 years, assuming she'd be fine going forward.

 

[Willow My Love]

I think it was mostly that he knew she'd been in situations where she could have died, and did die, more than once. She really knew what she was doing, and he had faith in her. Plus, their last meetings were painful for him. He knew that in another reality, he could have had her, but he had to give her up more than once. He knew she could beat anything that came her way.

When his son was involved, it triggered more in him than when Buffy's involved. As it should. That's this son, after all.

 

[NY State of Mind]

I just wanna add that all though Angel helped Buffy, etc in BtVS...your also forgetting how he was a liability....they're last real interaction (in s3) he almost killed her because she risked her own safety to save him....help works both ways

 

[white avenger]

See I'd argue that in all of those examples, her success depended greatly on Angel.

Against the mayor, she needed Angel to help kill and ward off the mayor's army

In Becoming II, she couldn't defeat Angelus and Dru without extra muscle, which is why she had to accept Spike's offer. She couldn't have done it alone.

And with the master, sure she defeated him alone but that was after he'd killed her. Had Xander and Angel not arrived when they did, she'd have stayed dead.

The whole idea was that Buffy was so successful because she was a slayer with friends. One of those friends, in every season, was a very powerful being-- In season 5 and on she needed Spike and Willow.

Which is why I've just never been able to wrap my head around the fact that he left. To me it was undeniably better for Buffy for him to be there, by her side, and I think there are lots of examples to prove that.

But consider this. In Season 7, Buffy DID have a super powerful ally. In fact, she had, not one, but two, and Angel was fully aware of that fact before he left. Certainly, he trusted Faith, and, while he might not list Spike among his most favorite people in the world, I don't think that he ever dismissed his abilities as a fighter. There's not a doubt in my mind that if Buffy had asked him to stay, Angel would have been there to the bitter end, but Buffy had the good sense to know that she was better off with Angel as far away from Sunnydale as she could get him. She fed him the first story that she could come up with, and I believe that they both knew that a "second front" was sheer B S, that would let him walk away with his dignity intact, and that's exactly what he did.

 

[Kean]

See I'd argue that in all of those examples, her success depended greatly on Angel. Against the mayor, she needed Angel to help kill and ward off the mayor's army. Had he not been there, she couldn't have gone ahead with her plan because it would have been up to Willow, Oz, Wesley, and Xander alone to fight the mayor's vamps. And many more people would have died. It's debatable for sure but I think that Buffy wouldn't have been able to go ahead with that plan.
In Becoming II, she couldn't defeat Angelus and Dru without extra muscle, which is why she had to accept Spike's offer. She couldn't have done it alone.
And with the master, sure she defeated him alone but that was after he'd killed her. Had Xander and Angel not arrived when they did, she'd have stayed dead.
The whole idea was that Buffy was so successful because she was a slayer with friends. One of those friends, in every season, was a very powerful being--in later seasons, more than one. In season 4 she needed Riley's help. In season 5 and on she needed Spike and Willow.

The thing is: I don't want to diss Angel, I really don't. (And [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] I hope you're not upset that I'm calling your fave guy into question; I know I get upset when it's done to me!) In any case, I think he's a noble character and that he did try to do what was right for Buffy. Which is why I've just never been able to wrap my head around the fact that he left. To me it was undeniably better for Buffy for him to be there, by her side, and I think there are lots of examples to prove that. I wish the writers had given him a better reason for going off and starting his own "show," rather than retcon the idea that she had needed him for the past 3 years, assuming she'd be fine going forward.

Oh don't be silly hun, I'll never be upset about someone questioning Angel when there is a genuine question to be asked. I know Angel has a lot of flaws but they are some of the things I appreciate the most about him. For others it is what makes them hate him. It's all good 😉 🙂

As for the topic at hand I think everyone in this thread has a point. I don't think it has to be either or. As a B/A shipper I know that Buffy would most likely have been emotionally better if Angel had stayed. Given her emotional state when he was there and comparing it after he left I think he was an irreplaceable, personal asset to her. He helped her deal with and shoulder emotional turmoil better than any other person we have seen in Buffy's life. However, the problem with that is I don't think Angel ever saw himself as that for her. In fact, I'd say he saw himself as the complete opposite, and that is crux of why he left.

In terms of slaying you are absolutely spot in saying that Buffy used Angel a lot. That he helped her constantly, but the thing about that is that there will always be someone else. When Angel wasn't there, someone else would have been. Plans would have changed in his absence but I don't think there is enough evidence there to say that say, Eygon, would not have been defeated without him. Simply put, another course of action would have been taken. And that goes for every single character in the verse. There isn't one who couldn't be done without, who hasn't been done without. Even Buffy. Resurrecting her was simply the plan the Scoobies went with, they could have just as easily broken Faith out of jail.

Perhaps there is an argument for her slaying being better if her emotional and personal life had been better, but I don't think Angel could have known that when he left.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

But consider this. In Season 7, Buffy DID have a super powerful ally. In fact, she had, not one, but two, and Angel was fully aware of that fact before he left. Certainly, he trusted Faith, and, while he might not list Spike among his most favorite people in the world, I don't think that he ever dismissed his abilities as a fighter...

I agree; I'm completely ok with the fact that he left her in "Chosen." As you said, she seemed to have all of the tools she needed for the battle. My issues lie primarily with the possibility that he'd walk away from the info Lilah had and the fact that he left SunnyD in the first place.

However, the problem with that is I don't think Angel ever saw himself as that for her. In fact, I'd say he saw himself as the complete opposite, and that is crux of why he left.

Interesting point! I'd never considered that before, at all. We always hear it phrased as "he was trying to do her a favor" and that never sat well with me, but when you put it this way it does make quite a bit more sense.

In terms of slaying you are absolutely spot in saying that Buffy used Angel a lot. That he helped her constantly, but the thing about that is that there will always be someone else. When Angel wasn't there, someone else would have been. Plans would have changed in his absence but I don't think there is enough evidence there to say that say, Eygon, would not have been defeated without him. Simply put, another course of action would have been taken. And that goes for every single character in the verse. There isn't one who couldn't be done without, who hasn't been done without. Even Buffy. Resurrecting her was simply the plan the Scoobies went with, they could have just as easily broken Faith out of jail. Perhaps there is an argument for her slaying being better if her emotional and personal life had been better, but I don't think Angel could have known that when he left.

It's a tough point to debate of course because nobody knows what would have happened had Angel not been around from seasons 1-3, or the extent to which he'd have been useful if he'd stayed. I honestly think the fault here was that he assumed she'd be alright, and/or that someone else would come along. And in retrospect it worked out fine, (more or less), but I suppose I just wanted him to say "you know, I'm sticking around no matter what. I want to be one of the people that she has around, whether she needs me or not." To be honest back when this all went down at the end of season 3 and I was a young Bangel myself, I remember being completely broken up about it, lol. Perhaps it's the 15 year old me coming through, still venting my frustration which started 12 years ago. But your perspective does help me understand a bit more what he might have been thinking when he left. It's certainly something for me to consider next time I'm watching Grad Day and getting frustrated. 😀

 

[white avenger]

As a B/A shipper I know that Buffy would most likely have been emotionally better if Angel had stayed.

On this point, in this case, with the circumstances as they existed, I have to say that you're wrong, Miss K, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with ships, though it does have everything to do with Angel and Spike. Buffy wanted, and needed, Angel gone simply because Spike was already there, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with who she loved, liked, or had moved on from. The reason is much more elementary than that. For the same reason that you wouldn't put two male pit bulldogs in the same pen together and expect them to practice peaceful coexistence, Buffy couldn't take the chance that Angel and Spike wouldn't spend more time fighting each other than they would the First Evil and its minions. One vampire, she could handle easily, but two was at best problematic in a time when she had more than enough problems already. Spike was already there, he pretty much knew as much about the situation as she did, and she had absolutely no doubt that he would unquestioningly follow her to the very gates of hell and beyond, and be grateful for the privilege of doing so. Angel's loyalty wasn't in question but his knowledge of the current situation was just one step up from nil, and there wasn't time for filling him in. Also, would Angel, after years of being the leader of his own crew, fall back into line and follow her orders that way? Probably, but not definitely, and that doubt, slight as it was, made Angel a liability that she simply could not afford at that time.

Sending Angel away, under whatever excuse, was a tactical decision, probably the best one that Buffy made the entire season. Keeping him there, knowing what she knew, would have been a purely emotional decision, and Buffy just couldn't afford to let emotion cloud her judgement at that time.

 

[Dagenspear]

That's the thing about the Bangel relationship. At any given point in their pairing they were never really comfortable with eachother. It always seemed ruled with a sense of desperation and dependency or insecurity in themselves. Angel had himself to worry about. Always. In Sunnydale he was very... Not self-loathing, but just... Not accepting of himself. If he even had a "self" so to speak, to accept. As he was alway very defined by Buffy and her actions. Which isn't a healthy structure for a relationship at all. He needed to leave. They were better off apart. HE was better off apart from her. Truth is, I'm proud of how far Angel has come as a person, where Buffy is nowhere near the center of his universe anymore. I mean, compare him in s1 of ANGEL where he's like 'Buffy in danger, don't know from what, or how to help, but run in head first anyway' to him in s4 where he's 'Buffy's in danger. I know the problem. I can probably help. But I have more important issues to deal with.' He grew. And it helped. A lot.

 

[Dagenspear]

Being together made Angel and Buffy weak.