Angel's perfect happiness?

[StarSlayer]

I apologize if this is a topic that has already been discussed before, but I'm still relatively new here. I've been wondering this for a while now, and just wanted to see what others thought about it, since it was brought up in another thread.

We know that Angel experienced perfect happiness after he slept with Buffy. Yet, when I first saw "Surprise" (a couple months ago), I wasn't entirely convinced it was the "sex with Buffy" that made Angel have perfect happiness, and this was before I was a Spuffy fan (so no intentions to start any shipping wars here). Instead, I felt it was more of the fact that Angel finally found someone who loved him for him. For the first time in his life, he seemed calm and peaceful, which resulted into him being truly happy. As such, he changed while he was sleeping, not while having sex. And we know Angel can have sex without experiencing perfect happiness because it happened with Darla.

So, I'm just curious what others think because I'm not completely satisfied with the theory that Angel can only experience perfect happiness with Buffy.

 

[zobothehobo]

I think it was more the sex with someone who loved him and someone he truly loved. At that point when he slept with Darla, he didn't love her and she didn't really love him either... So he had sex with Darla, he made love to Buffy.

 

[Connor Holtz]

I apologize if this is a topic that has already been discussed before, but I'm still relatively new here. I've been wondering this for a while now, and just wanted to see what others thought about it, since it was brought up in another thread.

We know that Angel experienced perfect happiness after he slept with Buffy. Yet, when I first saw "Surprise" (a couple months ago), I wasn't entirely convinced it was the "sex with Buffy" that made Angel have perfect happiness, and this was before I was a Spuffy fan (so no intentions to start any shipping wars here). Instead, I felt it was more of the fact that Angel finally found someone who loved him for him. For the first time in his life, he seemed calm and peaceful, which resulted into him being truly happy. As such, he changed while he was sleeping, not while having sex. And we know Angel can have sex without experiencing perfect happiness because it happened with Darla.

So, I'm just curious what others think because I'm not completely satisfied with the theory that Angel can only experience perfect happiness with Buffy.

I agree with 90% of what you're saying except that he can only have perfect happiness with Buffy. Angel is placed in a dream state to create his ideal life and give him perfect happiness but Buffy's not apart of it. I actually think Angel's definition of happiness grows as he matures. By 2002, happiness isn't just a girl but to have his friends, family, and a girlfriend all together living a happy, nice existence.

---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

I think it was more the sex with someone who loved him and someone he truly loved. At that point when he slept with Darla, he didn't love her and she didn't really love him either... So he had sex with Darla, he made love to Buffy.

Love had nothing to do with it in 'Reprise'. Angel went to Darla to get out of the cold, he was caught in a moment of 'perfect despair', pretty much the exact opposite of happiness.

 

[StarSlayer]

I agree with 90% of what you're saying except that he can only have perfect happiness with Buffy. Angel is placed in a dream state to create his ideal life and give him perfect happiness but Buffy's not apart of it. I actually think Angel's definition of happiness grows as he matures. By 2002, happiness isn't just a girl but to have his friends, family, and a girlfriend all together living a happy, nice existence.

Oh, I don't believe he can have perfect happiness only with Buffy, sorry if I wasn't clear 🙂 And I agree that Angel's definition of happiness grows as he matures, which is ironic since he doesn't technically age, lol 😉

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 PM ----------

I think it was more the sex with someone who loved him and someone he truly loved. At that point when he slept with Darla, he didn't love her and she didn't really love him either... So he had sex with Darla, he made love to Buffy.

Thing is Angel still changed after sleeping (making love) with Buffy, not during. I guess I'm also wondering if the curse works immediately or gradually? I always thought it was immediately.

 

[zobothehobo]

Thing is Angel still changed after sleeping (making love) with Buffy, not during. I guess I'm also wondering if the curse works immediately or gradually? I always thought it was immediately.

Didn't they show some flashback from Angel's perspective and it seemed his eyes changed as they were having sex... But he didn't fully change until after... I'm guessing that would mean gradually.

---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ----------

Love had nothing to do with it in 'Reprise'. Angel went to Darla to get out of the cold, he was caught in a moment of 'perfect despair', pretty much the exact opposite of happiness.

Exactly. That's why he was happy with Buffy (he loved her) and not with Darla (he didn't love her).

 

[Connor Holtz]

Didn't they show some flashback from Angel's perspective and it seemed his eyes changed as they were having sex... But he didn't fully change until after... I'm guessing that would mean gradually.

---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ----------



Exactly. That's why he was happy with Buffy (he loved her) and not with Darla (he didn't love her).

That isn't what I meant lol. It had nothing to do with who he did or didn't love. Angel spent several months becoming a darker person, being driven to the dark side by Wolfram & Hart when finally he gets his hands on a Senior Partner. Afterwards he's told by Holland Manners that no matter what he (Angel) does, evil will go on because hell is actually Earth. At this point Angel losses all his faith in humanity and the world in general. Angel no longer cares about anything or anyone, he's filled with apathy for life. He finds Darla in his room and he just wants it all to go away so in a moment of desperation, he sleeps with Darla hoping the world would just go away and he can be evil again. He wasn't trying to be happy or trying to love Darla, it was the exact opposite. He just wanted out of the cold and to feel anything, even if it wasn't happiness. That girl in his room could have been Buffy or Cordelia and the end result would have been the same, no happiness with his soul intact.

 

[zobothehobo]

That isn't what I was trying to say. It had nothing to do with who he did or didn't love. Angel spent several months becoming a darker person, being driven to the dark side by Wolfram & Hart when finally he gets his hands on a Senior Partner. Afterwards he's told by Holland Manners that no matter what he (Angel) does, evil will go on because hell is actually Earth. At this point Angel losses all his faith in humanity and the world in general. Angel no longer cares about anything or anyone, he's filled with apathy for life. He finds Darla in his room and he just wants it all to go away so in a moment of desperation, he sleeps with Darla hoping the world would just go away and he can be evil again. He wasn't trying to be happy or trying to love Darla, it was the exact opposite. He just wanted of the cold and to feel anything, even if it wasn't happiness. That girl in his room could have been Buffy or Cordelia and the end result would have been the same, no happiness with his soul intact.

I disagree. I think he slept with her in an act of desperation... but I don't think it didn't matter he wasn't in love with her. I have a feeling if he loved her, that night would have been very different. Probably something like the night Buffy and Spike spent together in Touched...

 

[Connor Holtz]

I disagree. I think he slept with her in an act of desperation... but I don't think it didn't matter he wasn't in love with her. I have a feeling if he loved her, that night would have been very different. Probably something like the night Buffy and Spike spent together in Touched...

The scene in 'Touched' and the scene in 'Reprise' are completely different. Angel was in a state of completely apathy. Not even capable of love or happiness. Angel didn't care when Kate called to let him know she was committing suicide. Angel lost all care, hope, and faith. Angel wasn't trying to be happy, he just wanted it to all go away. Love wasn't a factor.

 

[zobothehobo]

The scene in 'Touched' and the scene in 'Reprise' are completely different. Angel was in a state of completely apathy. Not even capable of love or happiness. Angel didn't care when Kate called to let him know she was committing suicide. Angel lost all care, hope, and faith. Angel wasn't trying to be happy, he just wanted it to all go away. Love wasn't a factor.

I am aware of that. But I have a feeling if Buffy was in his room instead of Darla, he would have started to care again.

 

[kristin1105]

I always though the same thing. Although sex is great and all I don't think that was the moment of perfect happiness. I think it was that he loved Buffy and when she decided to give herself to him he knew 100% that she loved him too. Thus causing the moment of perfect happiness. Isn't love what everyone is striving for?

I didn't like that everyone thought sex would make him lose his soul. Everyone should know that sex can be completely meaningless. E.g. Faith and Xander

 

[Connor Holtz]

I am aware of that. But I have a feeling if Buffy was in his room instead of Darla, he would have started to care again.

I'll say it's possible but being that I'm not a Bangel fan, I'll remain skeptical lol 😛

Thanks for the nice debate 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

I'll say it's possible but being that I'm not a Bangel fan, I'll remain skeptical lol 😛

Nice debate 😀

I'm not a bangel fan either... but I strongly believe in the power of love.

That was a nice debate. =]

 

[StarSlayer]

Didn't they show some flashback from Angel's perspective and it seemed his eyes changed as they were having sex... But he didn't fully change until after... I'm guessing that would mean gradually.

I'm not 100% positive on that one. I'd have to go back and check 🙂

 

[VisionGirl]

Didn't they show some flashback from Angel's perspective and it seemed his eyes changed as they were having sex... But he didn't fully change until after... I'm guessing that would mean gradually.

I think you're remembering his & Buffy's shared dream in Amends, where he did change during sex. Also, in his fantasy sequence in Awakening, he changes during the act with Cordelia as well.

Anyway, it is made clear that Angel wouldn't lose his soul upon every sexual act, that perfect happiness doesn't happen every time & is in fact rare (as Wesley explains so well). However, there is an implication throughout the entire show that sex is somehow involved. Yes, he doesn't change with Darla, but she is a vampire & he explains that they were both perfectly miserable together. He wants to approach Nina, but is afraid to, until the talk with Wesley. And that was season 5. (I'm not quite sure how we explain the sex with Eve part except that they were under Lorne's influence, but oh well). So I do think that there is a connotation that sex is part of the equation, but not the only part.

 

[Marisa]

I apologize if this is a topic that has already been discussed before, but I'm still relatively new here. I've been wondering this for a while now, and just wanted to see what others thought about it, since it was brought up in another thread.

We know that Angel experienced perfect happiness after he slept with Buffy. Yet, when I first saw "Surprise" (a couple months ago), I wasn't entirely convinced it was the "sex with Buffy" that made Angel have perfect happiness, and this was before I was a Spuffy fan (so no intentions to start any shipping wars here). Instead, I felt it was more of the fact that Angel finally found someone who loved him for him. For the first time in his life, he seemed calm and peaceful, which resulted into him being truly happy. As such, he changed while he was sleeping, not while having sex. And we know Angel can have sex without experiencing perfect happiness because it happened with Darla.

So, I'm just curious what others think because I'm not completely satisfied with the theory that Angel can only experience perfect happiness with Buffy.

Looking at it this way would make a lot more sense. I am going to be on the lookout during my next re-watch to watch this scene very closely. 🙂
I want to say I like this view because I don't think sex with Buffy like you said is the only way for a moment of pure happiness for Angel. Maybe it was just the fact that she loved him for him. If that is the case it would make sense as to why for example when Angel slept with Nina he didn't loose his soul. I don't know if that had been discussed before but after all my times of watching Angel that is the only thing that confuses me.

 

[VisionGirl]

It has to be a "moment of perfect happiness". Orgasm only doesn't qualify LOL.

 

[Kean]

I agree with 90% of what you're saying except that he can only have perfect happiness with Buffy. Angel is placed in a dream state to create his ideal life and give him perfect happiness but Buffy's not apart of it.

Well that isn't entirely true. The actual moment Angel achieves perfect happiness in that dream he gasps the word "Buffy". That was done for a reason. She is still (even in his dream state) very much tied to his "perfect happiness".

As for the question at hand, well I agree with the OP. It wasn't just the sex. This was a guy who (even in his human life) had been deemed worthless and unlovable. He has lived in solitude and torment for a hundred years feeling nothing but regret and remorse. On top of that he has zero reason to believe that his next hundred years, his next thousand will be any different. Then this girl comes along and turns his whole existence upside down. She gives him hope of another life, a better life where he can be better too. He falls in love with her without any hope of those feelings ever being reciprocated and then the most insane thing happens: she loves him back with equal passion and depth. She openly and unashamedly loves him. This girl that was born, chosen to kill him and his kind. Imagine how mindbogglingly unbelievable this all must have been to Angel? Anyone who has ever had dark days when they truly could not see the light at the end of the pain can appreciate this. That hope and joy and relief that bubbles up inside you when you get a glimpse of the light. That was what Buffy, her love and (especially) that night meant to Angel. Because, if she could love him with open arms, could want him when he hadn't been wanted by anything or anyone in a century then maybe he had hope of Heaven. Maybe he wasn't damned after all.

Also, what is key to this is the sheer naivety of it all. They both were still innocent enough to think that they could have it all, they hadn't faced anything truly soul destroying yet. In a lot of ways they were completely untouched by the hardship that their lives would soon take on.

That's why Angel lost his soul. It wasn't the physical sex, but the significance and emotion behind it.

Whether that emotion could be reproduced is up for question. I mean, has anyone here ever been so blissfully happy that it was perfection? I can't say that I have. Achieving that type of contentment once would be an amazing feat. Multiple times seems almost impossible to me.

 

[VisionGirl]

Well that isn't entirely true. The actual moment Angel achieves perfect happiness in that dream he gasps the word "Buffy". That was done for a reason. She is still (even in his dream state) very much tied to his "perfect happiness".

Really? I did not remember this. I'll take your word, though.

And wow Kean, the rest was simply beautiful. Perfect moment of happiness? If I've truly had one, it was when I birthed my babies. So, I guess that's 3. Probably more than any person deserves.

 

[dan k]

This is a tricky question to answer. Like many i believe Angel's mood when he slept with Darla meant he was never going to lose his soul. At that point in time he didn't care about anything and so was incapable of having perfect happiness in his life.

Would it have been different if Buffy was there not Darla? To me i don't believe Angel would have been so depressed if Buffy was in his life at that moment in time. I can't see Angel continuing to behave in such a care free way around Buffy.

Angel's bond with Buffy meant that if they were to get together it would always be sweet, touching and romantic. I'm not saying they didn't lust after one another but i couldn't imagine them sleeping together if their mindset was so bleak and depressing. I can't see Angel being aggressive towards Buffy like he was with Darla and forcing the issue, there is no evidence to suggest Angel would act that way around Buffy because his feelings for her meant he was very protective and he wouldn't want to hurt her.

Around Buffy Angel's persona was very different to the way he acted around other women. When it came down to Buffy and the intense moments they shared he always gave off a concerned nature.

In IWRY he is wary of taking the next step with Buffy, in surprise its Buffy who forces the issue.

Some might argue seeing Buffy would have changed Angel's bleak outlook on life a lot quicker and i tend to agree with that.

 

[StarSlayer]

Well that isn't entirely true. The actual moment Angel achieves perfect happiness in that dream he gasps the word "Buffy". That was done for a reason. She is still (even in his dream state) very much tied to his "perfect happiness".

See, in his dream, I don't think Angel achieves perfect happiness at the actual moment he says, "Buffy." It seemed like it happened before that. I agree that Buffy is tied to his perfect happiness when he first experienced it because that broke the curse. But, in his dream, I still have an issue with the timing.

In his dream, Angel doesn't say "Buffy" and then experience the actual moment of perfect happiness. It's just the opposite. His eyes pop, realizing he's experiencing a moment of perfect happiness. And Cordy recognizes it. Angel then is in state of panic. He then silently says "Buffy," as if remembering how he lost his soul the first time. And since they were trying to extract his soul, that kind of makes sense to me.