Angel's primary theme is not redemption. Agree or disagree?

[Robb Stark]

I'd like to make the case here that the central theme of Angel, both as a character and his series as a whole, is actually not about finding redemption. I'd really like to hear what others think about this, because I very often see posts maintaining that is what Angel is really about, when I see something else. I am aware that this is open to interpretation as well.

I don't see Angel as a redemption-centric character. Certainly, that's part of it, his past is obviously a massive part of his character, but I actually view the fact that redemption isn't possible, which Angel freely acknowledges, as kind of the lead in the real theme: that the fight is what matters.

I'm not really sure if the writers intended this from a season-to-season perspective, but I see Angel's true mission not as redemption but as him doing the right thing for selfless reasons, even when he knows redemption isn't possible. The way I've perceived the Shanshu is not a plot device about Angel seeking redemption, but Angel seeking peace. That one day, when the fighting is done, he can find that peace after everything that's happened. The equally important message is that in all likelihood, the fighting will never be done, and Angel knows that as well.

I thought "Not Fade Away" encapsulated this brilliantly. "Let's go to work" is the perfect message for Angel and AtS. It's about keeping going, keeping fighting, because it's the right thing to do, because it matters. Maybe that message evolves and matures as the series and the character go on, because Angel freely acknowledges "...nothing we do matters, so all that matters is what we do". That's a big statement. I don't think the mission is about Angel and his redemption at all.

 

[thetopher]

I think it starts out as redemption, in S1 asnd 2 that's pretty much the theme. But after that, not really it becomes something else entirely.

Angel fights because, ultimately, his uniqueness means he can make a difference, and can draw other people to him who can also make a difference.

I think the fact that he endured so much, saw so many horrors, (and was responsible for some awful ones too.) gives him the fortitude to keep on fighting, even if there's no big win he's trying to make the world a better place.
He's not doing it for for redemption, although that's part of it, he's doing it because its the right thing to do.

It's like Buffy told him in 'Amends' (where the coda of 'Angel the Series' was actually cleverly spelled out.) 'Strong is fighting, its painful and its every day.' 🙂

 

[Kean]

I think during S1 of ATS he believed in redemption, almost even believed in it for himself. He had begun to build his world around it but S2 was Angel realising that redemption doesn't exist, not really, and probably especially not for him. I think Darla being turned was what sealed that for him and I think that whole experience broke him. He had been living for that dream and Angel is a "Hail Mary" kind of guy. He gets caught up in believing in these crazy moments of chance. That if he does a specific thing, all is saved. It's a really seductive thing to have in front of you, most people would want to believe in that.

S2 taught Angel to live for the moment, do good work for no other reasons than because you can and because people need help. I don't think he believes in redemption again but what I do think he believes in is the possibility of being better than you were before. That could be better than you were 100 years ago or better than you were yesterday. He is no longer rooted to the spot by his past nor is he making calls based on his future.

Angel is about being better, being useful. Sometimes he slips into old habits and will try that "Hail Mary" play, but his reasons for doing those have shifted to doing the most good now. Redemption is a dream he barely remembers having.

 

[Xin Rong]

I don't think it's about redemption, I think Angel uses the redemption theme to motivate others, rather than as his motivation. Cordelia and Doyle, for example, seem fight the good fight, initially, in a bid to help Angel work towards redemption. Obviously, this changes as the series goes on.

I never fail to see the existential side to Angel, and I think that's more what the show is about then redemption. Morality, is after all a human invention, what matters is making the world a better place, by continuing to fight, by living in the world as it should be and not as it is, acknowledging that all that matters is what we do etc.

That's the message I took from Ats

 

[EVIL UU]

I don't buy this whole redemption thing mostly because it implies that Angel has anything to redeem for and I'm not sure he does. Is Angel responsible for what Angelus did? Yes, but only if you're some asshole from Ancient Greece or something. Is Angel responsible for what Angel did? Well, yeah but he is a vampire. Is it fair to judge his actions like those of a human? I don't know, even with a soul he is still a demon and he is still damned.

So why does he fight, then? The way I see it, he does it for fun. Yeah, yeah, prophecies, good fight, fate of the world blah, blah, blah, sure, it's all important but not as half as important as boredom. Never underestimate boredom. Angel is going to be around forever. Forever is a lot of time. You have forever, what do you do? You can do everything, learn and master everything, OK? Everything, the only thing that limits you is your will. You can get into science and technology and improve the lives of billions of people, shape the future of an entire race. You can learn to play every instrument, write the best damn symphony ever, one humans will play and listen to for as long as they exist.

Angel's not that kind of person. What he wants to do, what makes him happy, what drives him, gets him high, however you want to call it, is killing evil shit and evil shit will be around forever. Not the worst thing to spend so much time on, not the best either though.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I see Angel as about atonement, not redemption - it's not the destination for Angel, it's the journey. Angel wants to make up for what he's done, do good to make up for it, rather than be forgiven. The ultimate goal for Angel I don't think is to be redeemed and go off into the sunset (even if he thinks it would be nice to do that) - I don't think he ever sees his journey as being "over". There's nothing he can do in his mind to make it 100% right.

 

[Blaze]

I'm probably guilty of having said at least once that AtS was about redemption. But I agree with Robb, it's not about redemption, it's about the journey. Redemption is not something that Angel can attain, at least not in this lifetime. He does what he does because of the journey, because it's what he believes in. And eh, EVIL UU has good points, Angel also fights the fight because he's good at it and knows about it and it makes him happy.

Overall, ya it might be more about happiness than it ever was about redemption. Of course, his job description pretty much states that he'll have to make hard decision that he won't want to do, but at the same time I do think that overall, Angel does this because it makes him feel good that he is helping people and that he is changing the world. He is doing it mainly for others, but for himself too.

 

[Doppelgang]

I have not followed enough of Angel's story in Ats yet in order to make an authoritative statement. I have just watched the episode in season 2 with Darla getting turned by Drusilla in my rewatch, after all Angel's efforts in the trials to save her.

As Kean says, I think things like this happening make Angel realise complete redemption is not a possibility. Life is too messy, and he has noone he can turn to who can be his redeemer. So he has gone beyond needing that. From what I can make of where I am up to, and what I remember from the past of watching Angel, he is mainly seeking some sort of inner peace in his relationship with the world. Rather than trying to put right something he had done wrong in the past. He tried this latter approach with Buffy, and then with Darla, but things just didn't work out that way.

I think even in season 2 of Angel from what I have seen so far, it is more Cordelia and Wesley who are caught up on this idea of making things right, and it seems they try to project that on to Angel, while his motivation is actually something quite different, it is more for a personal satisfaction than for the satisfaction of the people he helps, in the name of personal integrity.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

We saw in "The Wish", where Anyanka granted Cordelia's wish that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale, that the absence or late arrival of a key individual has a profound effect on the quality of life. (But we know that - where would television have been without Joss?) Angel hoped to make the same kind of difference. The concept of the continuous battle between good and evil is as old as the Zoroastrian religion from Persia and predates Christianity (but is also continued in Christianity).

Angel knows there is no absolution possible for him and he feels no separation from the deeds of Angelus. Absolution can only come from the victim and his victims are mostly dead, so no redemption is possible. There is no third party that can dispense forgiveness in place of his victims.

But his life will be measured in the balance of good and bad that he did, so he is willing and able to make a difference.

 

[ladydorotea]

Disagree. Disagree.Disagree.

 

[Robb Stark]

Disagree. Disagree.Disagree.

Why do you say that?

 

[bespangeled]

I see Angel as about atonement, not redemption - it's not the destination for Angel, it's the journey. Angel wants to make up for what he's done, do good to make up for it, rather than be forgiven. The ultimate goal for Angel I don't think is to be redeemed and go off into the sunset (even if he thinks it would be nice to do that) - I don't think he ever sees his journey as being "over". There's nothing he can do in his mind to make it 100% right.

I don't think redemption is the goal - in fact I think it's impossible as a goal. I think redemption is the journey.

ANGEL
(walks close around Spike, whispering in his ear)
You think any of it matters? The things we did? The lives we destroyed. That's all that's ever gonna count. So, yeah, surprise. You're going to hell. We both are.
(sits on couch)

SPIKE
Then why even bother?
(scoffs)
Try to do the right thing, make a difference...

ANGEL
What else are we gonna do?

Redemption consists of being able to do good after doing evil. Your true victims are still dead. But you redeem yourself in the actions you chose and do.

 

[Xin Rong]

I don't think redemption is the goal - in fact I think it's impossible as a goal. I think redemption is the journey.

ANGEL
(walks close around Spike, whispering in his ear)
You think any of it matters? The things we did? The lives we destroyed. That's all that's ever gonna count. So, yeah, surprise. You're going to hell. We both are.
(sits on couch)

SPIKE
Then why even bother?
(scoffs)
Try to do the right thing, make a difference...

ANGEL
What else are we gonna do?

Redemption consists of being able to do good after doing evil. Your true victims are still dead. But you redeem yourself in the actions you chose and do.

Exactly, that's pretty much what I said in the other thread on a similar subject, redemption is about living with your past crimes by doing good in the present.