Angel's Soul

[Cast No Shadow]

To quote [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION], regarding Spike and Angel's souls:

To use a literary metaphor, Spike got the full, unabridged version, and all that Angel got was the Cliff's Notes.

Why did Angel never try to seek the "full, unabridged version"? That way he could have had a soul, and also experienced happiness.

Was it his guilt? He didn't believe he deserved a full soul?

Do you think it would have impacted the show in a good, or a bad way if this had happened?

Do you think he was less determined than Spike, would Angel not have wanted to fight so hard for a soul?

Opinions please 😀

 

[Ripper666]

This question is as brilliant as simple.
Angel had to know that there is a chance for him to get a solid soul because he meet Buffy in season 7 and she told him that Spike has a soul now too. So why didn't he go to this mysterious creature fighting for a own soul?

I think it's because Spike wanted his soul, Angel didn't. Spike went to the demon as a vampire, without soul. Just his love for Buffy made him fight for his soul. Angel instead was forced to life with soul. He would just go the the creature as the knight with soul, he already has one which makes him asking for a solid one. But without soul, as Angelous, as vampire like Spike was one, he would never go and ask it for a soul. And that's the different. Maybe the vampire has to go and fight because he realized that his actions and past was wrong. Then he get a chance to fight for a new life. Spike did, so in my eyes he was the first vampire with soul. Angel would fight too, I'm sure but Angelous not. And it has to be Angelous who has to want a soul. Fight for a soul. Not Angel.

 

[Cast No Shadow]

This question is as brilliant as simple.
Angel had to know that there is a chance for him to get a solid soul because he meet Buffy in season 7 and she told him that Spike has a soul now too. So why didn't he go to this mysterious creature fighting for a own soul?

I think it's because Spike wanted his soul, Angel didn't. Spike went to the demon as a vampire, without soul. Just his love for Buffy made him fight for his soul. Angel instead was forced to life with soul. He would just go the the creature as the knight with soul, he already has one which makes him asking for a solid one. But without soul, as Angelous, as vampire like Spike was one, he would never go and ask it for a soul. And that's the different. Maybe the vampire has to go and fight because he realized that his actions and past was wrong. Then he get a chance to fight for a new life. Spike did, so in my eyes he was the first vampire with soul. Angel would fight too, I'm sure but Angelous not. And it has to be Angelous who has to want a soul. Fight for a soul. Not Angel.

Why would it have to be Angelus?
And I think Angel definitely did want a soul.

 

[Ripper666]

Why would it have to be Angelus?
And I think Angel definitely did want a soul.

Yes Angel want his soul! Maybe more than everything else. But did Angelous want a soul too? If you give him the chance to life without soul what would the two do? Angel would live with soul, that's clear. But would Angelous live with soul because he regrets? No. But both personalitys have to want. If not the demon can't give him a chance to get a soul! Spike wanted, as human beeing and vampire. That's the matter in my eyes. Do you understand what I mean? It's a little bit confusing 🙂

 

[ladydorotea]

The discussion of a really badly thought through plot twist is always convoluted - and the whole Spike's wanting a soul part is an example of an extremely bad plotting, IMHO.

That aside, 'wanting a soul' does not equate with wanting to be good. Moreover, Spike 'wanting a soul' (and fighting for it) was always tainted with his demonic - twisted reasons of lust and envy -- i.e. earning for something that was never his. Shrug. As I said once it was almost like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. So, yeah, Angelus was never in a situation of wanting something that badly that he would - virtually speaking - hack off his own limb to get it. Secondly Angelus' primal aspect as a demon was/is pride - demeaning ones demonic self to this level was not his cuppa. Spike's demon, on other hand, strikes me as a one who prizes satisfaction of his physical desires most - and never flinched at demeaning himself and/or groveling if that got him what he wanted. (His relationship with Dru was one such example.) So, taking it to extreme, that particular demon's aspect (Desire) of that particular vampire would go as far as an act of ultimate masochistic self-mutilation ( for a demon) to completely prostrate himself before his current object of lust. Thus he gets a soul - and then it is too late.

And for Angel getting a soul Spike's way means letting go of his soul once more - and it would be too dangerous and questionable if he would risk it for the sake of getting rid of the curse... although he did it once to defeat the Beast and stop yet another Apocalypses.

 

[EvilWillow]

Moreover, Spike 'wanting a soul' (and fighting for it) was always tainted with his demonic - twisted reasons of lust and envy -- i.e. earning for something that was never his

Wrong. Spike wanted to be a good man. His primary reason was to be a good man for Buffy. Wanting to be a good man for someone is not lust. It's called love.

 

[ladydorotea]

Wrong. Spike wanted to be a good man. His primary reason was to be a good man for Buffy. Wanting to be a good man for someone is not lust. It's called love.

Either every vampire out there can be conditioned to love via embedded micro-chip (Clock-work orange anybody?) and then the entire concept of Slayers is homicidal maniacs killing potentially 'good' demons, or Spike is a 'special snowflake demon', and then he really does not need a soul to be 'good'. Either or is moronic. Besides, 'got a soul to get into the girl's pants' was not written by me. We all believe what we find more appealing though. I imagine a 'desire' type demon is more attractive and appealing to younger audience though - it takes different set of mind to appreciate austerity of pride and realize that desires are equally deadly.

 

[EvilWillow]

Either every vampire out there can be conditioned to love via embedded micro-chip (Clock-work orange anybody?) and then the entire concept of Slayers is homicidal maniacs killing potentially 'good' demons, or Spike is a 'special snowflake demon', and then he really does not need a soul to be 'good'. Either or is moronic. Besides, 'got a soul to get into the girl's pants' was not written by me. We all believe what we find more appealing though. I imagine a 'desire' type demon is more attractive and appealing to younger audience though - it takes different set of mind to appreciate austerity of pride and realize that desires are equally deadly.

Having the chip made him realize he had a greater purpose. It didn't make him good, HE made himself a better man by loving Buffy. But he knew it was never going to be enough for her unless he went and got his soul. He was a demon that wanted to be good, something Angel could never accomplish without a soul. Changing the parts about you that aren't so good, to prove yourself is real love. Because you are putting the other person's wants and needs before your own, regardless if you get anything out of it. That is why the story of Spike's transformation is so beautiful.

 

[Kean]

He does have a "full" soul. He also has a curse.

He didn't actually know he had a loophole to his curse until Surprise/Innocence. Afterwards, I don't think he believed he deserved an easy route. He wanted to earn his humanity and make amends. Happiness wasn't really on his agenda, redemption was.

 

[ladydorotea]

Having the chip made him realize he had a greater purpose.

Are you serious ? And how this disputes the fact that it was a violation of free will? The solution to all vampire problems then - chip them all - and wait till they all realize 'they have greater purpose...'

It didn't make him good, HE made himself a better man by loving Buffy.

And that happened when - before or after him trying to sell demon eggs to terrorists and then trying to rape her ?

But he knew it was never going to be enough for her unless he went and got his soul.

The fact that he wants a soul to be 'good enough for her' by itself just confirms that he wants a soul to basically get into the girls pants - otherwise why would he need a stamp of Buffy approval - good enough - passed - has a soul - can love now - will sleep with again. See, this is what is making the whole plot an absurdity. One does not need to feel he is 'good enough to be loved' - if they are capable of loving. The whole getting a soul turns into a travesty.

He was a demon that wanted to be good

But did not you just said he 'made himself a 'better man' already - without a chip ? How can a demon want to be good if they have no concept of morality? I can understand an abstract desire of amoral demon to get something physical - and to undergo torture for it - but having an earning for morality without possessing it is simply a vicious circle of absurdity.

Changing the parts about you that aren't so good, to prove yourself is real love. Because you are putting the other person's wants and needs before your own, regardless if you get anything out of it. That is why the story of Spike's transformation is so beautiful.

See, there is another absurdity - from your PoV Spike thinks and believes that what Buffy needs is 'him with a soul package'. It is what she needs yes- so he 'puts her needs above his' - (she needs *him* - that-s why she yells stop ) - so he decides to get her 'what she 'needs' and 'deserves'. It never occurs to him to question that reasoning - that maybe she needs and deserves something else altogether ? - meaning that he is dead certain that the only thing that matters about getting a soul is making her 'get what she deserves' - and back again we go into getting a soul to get into the girl's pants.

 

[david4wt]

I think that the answer to this is to be found in this other question: "How is it that Spike never felt the redemption urge that Angel felt?". I'd love to know more of Liam's childhood/adolescence...I can easily see some unresolved issue in in there.

Sorry, the future psychologist in me is taking over 😀

 

[Gum Gnome33]

or Spike is a 'special snowflake demon', and then he really does not need a soul to be 'good'.

It's this one--the "special snowflake" being both his underlying humanity and the chip. And he isn't entirely good without the soul, (as you pointed out re: end of 6), which is why he gets one.

Besides, 'got a soul to get into the girl's pants' was not written by me.

True, it was spoken by Angel who was essentially battling with Spike to the death in a fit of extreme rage and with the prospect of losing something he held dear, (the Shanshu prophecy hung in the balance). He spat that remark out at Spike like any enraged, threatened ex lover would. How could he have even truly known what Spike's intentions had been? Had he calmed down (or maybe just not been in love with Buffy), I'm sure he'd admit that.

Also, note that Spike has not gotten into Buffy's pants since his soul was acquired. Instead of resenting her for it or resenting the very fact that he got a soul in the first place, he is still by her side.

I imagine a 'desire' type demon is more attractive and appealing to younger audience though - it takes different set of mind to appreciate austerity of pride and realize that desires are equally deadly.

Hmm this feels like quite a knock down to all of us who appreciate Spike. Rather than engage in this exchange, I'll simply point out that the older I got, the more I preferred Spike to Angel. If others have had the opposite experience, that is equally valid and I respect that as well.

One does not need to feel he is 'good enough to be loved' - if they are capable of loving. The whole getting a soul turns into a travesty.

Actually, scores of psychiatrists would scramble to disagree with that point. It is quite common for people to love without feeling as though they deserve love in return. In any case, it seems reasonable enough to me, (and quite rational), that a vampire would conclude that his horrific deeds make him unworthy or a heroine's love. Especially when she's essentially told him so.

So, the above listed responses serve to exhibit why it was that Spike was inspired to get his soul. Regarding Angel:

He didn't actually know he had a loophole to his curse until Surprise/Innocence. Afterwards, I don't think he believed he deserved an easy route. He wanted to earn his humanity and make amends. Happiness wasn't really on his agenda, redemption was.

I think this sums it up well. My one issue with this however, is that I can't understand why Angel, (and the Fang Gang for goodness sake), wouldn't want to seek out more of a permanent solution to this whole soul having/not having business. We know that some witch can say the magic words and Angel can become Angelus again. "Orpheus" showed us that the soul doesn't have to be nearby, (ok it was in that episode but Willow didn't know that), when it's put back in. That suggests that a powerful being can be anywhere and remove the soul from him as well, without so much as ever meeting Angel. For safety's sake, I'd have thought that he would want to do something about that. You know, considering the number of enemies he has...

 

[ladydorotea]

It is quite common for people to love without feeling as though they deserve love in return. In any case, it seems reasonable enough to me, (and quite rational), that a vampire would conclude that his horrific deeds make him unworthy or a heroine's love. Especially when she's essentially told him so.

Yes, yes, and yes. But what would a vampire without a soul know about love except defining it as obsession and desire to share flesh - aka have sex- aka 'get into the girls pants' ? What you are trying to convey here is that the soul is needed to be able to understand higher aspects of love also known as 'love is sacrifice' also known as empathic connection. Either soulless Spike-y wants to get to this platonic sacrificial selfless level ( which is absurd, because as a demon he cannot appreciate its meaning ) or he is stuck at the basic level of understanding of 'love' which would be wanting coitus at any price - aka 'getting into the girls pants', again. Or I misunderstand you and you are trying to prove to me that Spike is fully aware of divine sacrificial possibility of love and desires it fully while without a soul.

PS

All of the above argument is still laughable free-will wise - because basically with a chip still in their head no one could claim they 'fought for their soul' purely because of the intrinsic goodness of their vampiric heart.

 

[white avenger]

He didn't actually know he had a loophole to his curse until Surprise/Innocence. Afterwards, I don't think he believed he deserved an easy route. He wanted to earn his humanity and make amends. Happiness wasn't really on his agenda, redemption was.

Whether or not Angel knew about the loophole in his curse is totally irrelevant. It was there, the Gypsies knew about it, and they went to great lengths to see that he never inadvertently used it.

 

[InsaneMystic]

I think that the answer to this is to be found in this other question: "How is it that Spike never felt the redemption urge that Angel felt?".

Without getting into evaluations (been there, done that, and you all know whom I can't stand and whom I consider a fine role model 😉), the simple version is:

Bad Hair Dude: introvert who lives in the past
Spike: extravert who lives in the present

I think this difference in temperament is completely sufficient to explain it. 🙂

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I think that the answer to this is to be found in this other question: "How is it that Spike never felt the redemption urge that Angel felt?".

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Spike wanted to be redeemed so badly that he endured torture to get his soul, (which is indeed the answer to the original question). Then after getting it, he directly sacrificed his life to save the world. Upon coming to LA, after struggling with being incorporeal, he recommitted himself to "fighting the good fight," and declared to Angel how important it was to him.

That sounds like quite a lot of redemption seeking--I'm not really sure how one can determine whether it's more or less than Angel's. It's certainly exhibited differently on an episode to episode basis--and in a condensed amount of time--not really a fair comparison. Just because we only see him suffering actively for a few episodes of Btvs and a few episodes of Ats, doesn't mean that he doesn't care about redemption as much as Angel does.

As far as the exhibition of it is concerned, timing plays quite a roll. For Spike, at first it's more important to him that he be redeemed to certain people, once he gains a soul. He struggles with the notion that because the things that he did cannot be undone, there might be no point in attempting to do anything about it. It's like he'd said years ago when he didn't know anything about what it felt like to atone for something, in reference to the Native Americans: "You annihilated them...what could you possibly say to make it better?" It's a lot of that same sentiment that he struggled with, on a whole new level, upon having a soul. For...a few months? Maybe? Angel had a century to ponder this stuff before taking on his role as a hero--he's figured out what to make of it and how to fit into it. That looks quite different from someone who's just starting out.

 

[dexeded]

Yes, yes, and yes. But what would a vampire without a soul know about love except defining it as obsession and desire to share flesh - aka have sex- aka 'get into the girls pants' ? What you are trying to convey here is that the soul is needed to be able to understand higher aspects of love also known as 'love is sacrifice' also known as empathic connection. Either soulless Spike-y wants to get to this platonic sacrificial selfless level ( which is absurd, because as a demon he cannot appreciate its meaning ) or he is stuck at the basic level of understanding of 'love' which would be wanting coitus at any price - aka 'getting into the girls pants', again. Or I misunderstand you and you are trying to prove to me that Spike is fully aware of divine sacrificial possibility of love and desires it fully while without a soul.

That's why Spike is the special snowflake vampire, as [MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION] said. When he's soulless, he doesn't know about truly selfless love, as he does with a soul in S7 (as can be seen from Touched), but he does have more of a capacity to love than most vamps. For example, his love for Dru wasn't just sex/sire/salvation based. He stuck with her for most of his vampiric existence, even when she was banging Angelus. It's not an either/or. He does not have nor explicitly want the 'platonoic sacrificial selfless level', nor is he 'stuck at the... wanting coitus at any price'. That's what he was getting in S6, which he wasn't satisfied with because he was in love with Buffy. He didn't get a soul because Buffy stopped having sex with him; he got a soul because he did something he felt was inconceivable, even for a soulless demon like himself--he hurt the woman he loved, Buffy. Him getting a soul was in no way entirely selfless; he was still a soulless demon, after all. But it's demeaning to say that he got one entirely to get into a girl's pants. The main reason he got a soul was because he realized he could choose to be a monster or man, remembered that the old him would've just gone ahead and raped her, at the same time disgusted with what he was, and he was in a sort of limbo. And he chose the 'higher' option--he chose to be a man. (He could've also removed the chip, remember.)

PS

All of the above argument is still laughable free-will wise - because basically with a chip still in their head no one could claim they 'fought for their soul' purely because of the intrinsic goodness of their vampiric heart.

Everything needs a catalyst--in this case, it was the chip. I don't think anyone claimed he got it out of the intrinsic goodness of his vampiric heart, because I also think that's ridiculous.

 

[ladydorotea]

That's why Spike is the special snowflake vampire, When he's soulless, he doesn't know about truly selfless love ... but he does have more of a capacity to love than most vamps.

Well, lets just agree to disagree respectfully. I see Spike as indeed a special snowflake vampire -- with a chip in his head - who was conditioned for a few years like a lab rat not to hurt humans. This resulted in turning his 'healthy' demonic obsession with Slayers ( which existed before the chip ) into obsession with a concrete Slayer - whom he wanted to boink so badly that he was ready to go and get a soul for that. The fact that Spike story can be read like that is there - one just has to be less melodramatic - as is the writers poking fun at it. I also think that the whole chip in the head plot screws the concept of free will and innate goodnes into a joke. Which makes the whole discussion of why Angelus did not do it moot - Angelus did not have a chip and was never obsessed with continuous rejection by various females (including 'my mama never loved me' complex 😛) .

 

[Ripper666]

"How is it that Spike never felt the redemption urge that Angel felt?"

He didn't ? In my eyes he did too, he nearly gone mad with soul! He lived in the school-underground talking to himself. He nearly killed himself because he regretted. He had a redemption-urge upon he had a soul. Like Angel. Be carefull, don't confound Angel who regrets with Angelous who doesn't care what he had done!

 

[ladydorotea]

He didn't ? In my eyes he did too, he nearly gone mad with soul! He lived in the school-underground talking to himself. He nearly killed himself because he regretted. He had a redemption-urge upon he had a soul. Like Angel. Be carefull, don't confound Angel who regrets with Angelous who doesn't care what he had done!

Spike 'wailed for two weeks in the basement', lol , and then was basically back to his old self - cheerful and snarky, completely unconcerned for example about killing all these people that the First made him turn, and totally ready to tear Robin's throat out while showing no regret over killing Nikki ( or his own mother by the way.)