Angel's Soul

[Ripper666]

Spike 'wailed for two weeks in the basement', lol , and then was basically back to his old self - cheerful and snarky, completely unconcerned for example about killing all these people that the First made him turn, and totally ready to tear Robin's throat out while showing no regret over killing Nikki ( or his own mother by the way.)

Good point. But as excuse you can say that the First-Evil forced him to kill. See it like you want to see, guilty or innocent. Angel founded "Angel's Investigations" Spike joined the Scoobie-Gang. He had to fight for his position in the group. There was hate and occupied unit against him. Anyway he always stand up, tried to help and get redemption. He wasn't "hisself" after two weeks, he changed, protecting the weak ones! Forever, just as Angel!

 

[ladydorotea]

Good point. But as excuse you can say that the First-Evil forced him to kill.

I do not blame Spike for the killings - I simply don't like that he does not show any regret over these deaths.

Anyway he always stand up, tried to help and get redemption. He wasn't "hisself" after two weeks, he changed, protecting the weak ones! Forever, just as Angel!

Meh, color me unimpressed. Lets just agree that some of the audience like me will never understand your guys fascination with your hero. I don't hate Spike, I simply dislike his whiny, dependent personality and the fact that he almost always puts his feelings first - over everybody else's. Yeah, he is capable of heroics - but only if the action feeds one of his two great obsessions - besting Angel in everything, or not being rejected by his current crush ( roll the first one into the second - as soon as he decided that Angel *is* his current crush he goes into strutting mode once again).

 

[PassionBecoming]

Well, a couple of thoughts on possible explanations...

1. Plot inconsistency - The demon that gave Spike his soul didn't exist until S6; it would be weird for Angel to never have mentioned it before then all of a sudden announce he was going to get his soul after all those years of wanting it.

2. Angel was on a road to redemption. He was trying to make up for the wrongs he had done and didn't believe he deserved a permanent place in humanity (soul) yet. Otherwise he would have taken it the other two times it was available to him.

3. The show would have been completely different if Angel had received his soul that way, and AtS wouldn't exist. Therefore, kinda glad he didn't. 🙂

4. I don't believe he was less determined than Spike, I just believe he wanted to "earn" his place in the human world. He wanted to get there by doing good and helping those who needed it. Spike went looking for his soul because of his infatuation with Buffy and his desire to be a better companion for her. (To me, Spike went looking for a soul for selfish reasons, where Angel was much more selfless. This isn't a criticism of Spike; he didn't have a soul at all when he went to get one, so his motives couldn't really be 100% pure.)

 

[Ripper666]

Sorry, but I just don't see this argument which I read here more than just once:
"Angel wanted redemption. He wanted to fix his mistakes and that's why he didn't fight for his soul!"
Of course he wanted to fix his mistakes. But he helped others with soul. Just that this soul isn't solid like Spike's one. If Angel could get a solid soul he would fight for it. Because then he wouldn't have the fear of returning into Angelous and making new mistakes. Then he could help others more effective. That was surely not the reason why he didn't visit the demon!

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Spike 'wailed for two weeks in the basement', lol , and then was basically back to his old self - cheerful and snarky, completely unconcerned for example about killing all these people that the First made him turn,

Huh? When at all in season 7 was Spike "cheerful" or "snarky?" The season starts out with him trying to cut his heart out of his chest, throwing himself over a cross, and lamenting over his kills. (In "Beneath You" he is intentionally very nasty when it appears Anya is about to reveal the fact that he's gotten his soul. It doesn't make much sense to me but it has nothing to do with whether he has regrets or his general perception at the time; it's meant to repel the others so they won't inquire any more about what's gotten into him).

After that, he spends his cognizant hours moping around town, and when he does suspect that he's been killing, he calls Buffy, hysterical and then completely breaks down in front of her begging for her to kill him, (something he also does in "Never Leave Me.")

He spends the rest of the season chained up, of his own will, in the basement. Occasionally he helps Buffy out with the potentials. Then he is ambushed and brought into a room that is covered in crosses, and the trigger is once again activated, by Wood, so that he'll become fully demon. Wood attempts not only to kill Spike but to take away the very thing he'd worked so hard to achieve. He wants him to die a monster. Was he ready to kill Robin in retaliation? Yes. Did he? No. And the guy was trying to kill him. Yes, he should have shown Robin more compassion. Certainly. I don't like that he didn't either. But it's difficult to do that when the person in question has tried to kill you, and take away the very thing which you've attained in the very process of repenting for acts such as the one in question, in the first place.

So, cheerful and snarky? I don't see it. Miserable, redemptive, and enraged? Basically sums up Spike for season 7. Until of course he makes good of the fact that Buffy believes in him, and then there's hope again. And ultimate sacrifice.

---------- Post added at 01:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

Sorry, but I just don't see this argument which I read here more than just once:
"Angel wanted redemption. He wanted to fix his mistakes and that's why he didn't fight for his soul!"
Of course he wanted to fix his mistakes. But he helped others with soul. Just that this soul isn't solid like Spike's one. If Angel could get a solid soul he would fight for it. Because then he wouldn't have the fear of returning into Angelous and making new mistakes. Then he could help others more effective. That was surely not the reason why he didn't visit the demon!

Exactly this--I don't understand this either.

 

[Kairos]

There's a recurring theme I see in a lot of discussions about Spike's and Angel's respective redemption arcs, and I don't understand it. Maybe someone can help me out:

"Spike fought for his soul." Yes. He did.
"Spike fought for redemption." In what way?

From what I watched, Spike went through those trials and received a soul as his reward. He did not receive an Official Certificate of Absolution, nor any other sign that his past sins had been redeemed. And after all, why should he?

If redemption comes as part of the package with the soul, neither Angel nor Spike need to worry about it anymore. If it was granted due to Spike wanting it enough to fight for it, well, Angel's got that covered too. If Spike only wanted the soul as the first step on his road to redemption, he clearly isn't done yet.

It seems to me that both Angel and Spike, champions with souls and superpowers, have a lot of old crimes to make up for, but Spike decided to call it a day and Angel's still at the grindstone.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

There's a recurring theme I see in a lot of discussions about Spike's and Angel's respective redemption arcs, and I don't understand it. Maybe someone can help me out:From what I watched, Spike went through those trials and received a soul as his reward. He did not receive an Official Certificate of Absolution, nor any other sign that his past sins had been redeemed. And after all, why should he?

You're absolutely right; getting the soul wasn't redemption in and of itself. But Spike believed, (heck he'd been told over and over again), that a soul was the thing that kept him from being good. From being worthy, or treated like a man. And indeed, the soul was the necessary first step toward the kind of redemption he wanted to achieve. In the end of season 5 and season 6, he did a lot of good and actively refrained from doing bad, with the two exceptions at the end of the season. But it was a limited kind of atonement, and redemption. I don't think he knew that yet. What he did know is that souls were what men needed to really make a difference. He looked at Angel. He listened to what Buffy was telling him--quite plainly that she couldn't love him--that he wasn't worthy of love--without a soul. So he deduced that a soul was not only what she needed in a man, but what a man needed to be "the kind of man who would never..."and we know the rest.

So. Soul getting is act one in the quest for redemption. At first it's mostly directed toward wanting Buffy's love and forgiveness. But by the end of the season, it's translated into a full on life sacrifice to save the world.

Also, there are 2 kinds of redemption at play, (or two perceptions of it anyhow). One is through the eyes of a soulless Spike who assumes that redemption means getting people (mostly Buffy) to love him and forgive him. That having a soul translates into not making mistakes, ever. He is of course wrong. Once he has his soul, he is truly miserable, as he realizes how wretched he was as a vampire, and that perhaps he had a lot more to atone for than he'd realized. Atoning by vampiric standards was very noble of him but with the soul's clarity he realized that atoning by human standards would require more. And he was depressed, believing he wasn't worth it, and that he'd never be able to make it up.

If redemption comes as part of the package with the soul, neither Angel nor Spike need to worry about it anymore. If it was granted due to Spike wanting it enough to fight for it, well, Angel's got that covered too. If Spike only wanted the soul as the first step on his road to redemption, he clearly isn't done yet.

Neither of them are "done" with their redemption. Spike has just begun, and Angel has over a hundred years on him! Soul having is indeed the first step for both vampires to be truly redeemed, in this verse. But both vampires have demonstrated that they do not feel as if the will ever truly be fully redeemed, (a kind of insight that is also thanks to the soul!) But they work toward it anyway.

It seems to me that both Angel and Spike, champions with souls and superpowers, have a lot of old crimes to make up for, but Spike decided to call it a day and Angel's still at the grindstone.

This is what bothers and confuses me. Spike decided to call it a day...when? Throughout Ats he fought at Angel's side, (yes he resisted at first, still trying to figure out what the point was, and if true redemption was even possible. But by mid season he was fully there--actually it took him far less time to get there than it took Angel). Between Ats and Buffy 8 he is doing the same thing. Same in Buffy 8, though his priorities are more to do with her specific needs. Now in season 9,

Spoiler

he is becoming a bit lax, I'll admit. He's focusing on protecting Buffy and keeping an eye out for her. But Angel's focus is also directed away from the mission. In other words, neither vampire is selflessly sacrificing himself on a slab for the greater good this season. But I don't think it's fair to say that either perceives himself as being "done," either, as we have no indication of that.

 

[EvilWillow]

including 'my mama never loved me' complex

No, it was "daddy never loved me" 😉


And Spike's mother DID love him, obviously. She only said horrible things to him when she was a demon.

 

[PassionBecoming]

[MENTION=11629]Ripper666[/MENTION] I can only speak from the BtVS side of things because I haven't yet seen Spike on AtS. To me, Spike has fought on the side of "good" for one of two reasons: 1. He had a chip and if he wanted to fight, that was his only choice. 2. He fought on the side of Buffy to get her attention and to try to impress/woo her. Now, I haven't seen S7 in a looong time, so maybe my impressions will change after my re-watch.

On the flip side, Angel fought on the side of good to redeem himself, not to get the attention or affection of another. His mission came from wanting to atone for past wrongs and to do good. Spike's mission to get his soul and "do good" came from a more selfish place, IMO.

 

[Icarium]

I can understand an abstract desire of amoral demon to get something physical - and to undergo torture for it - but having an earning for morality without possessing it is simply a vicious circle of absurdity.

Very well said. Also, if Spike wanted Buffy to love him, it would have been far more natural of him to try to sire her like Dru wanted to do with Xander in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered.

He didn't get a soul because Buffy stopped having sex with him; he got a soul because he did something he felt was inconceivable, even for a soulless demon like himself--he hurt the woman he loved, Buffy.

Why the hell should Spike care about that? He certainly didn't when he hit the other woman he "loved" on the head and basically drug her to his cave. He then kidnapped Buffy - still no pangs of guilt whatsoever. Then a year later it suddenly it dawns on him that hurting people ain't cool? Okay...

he main reason he got a soul was because he realized he could choose to be a monster or man, remembered that the old him would've just gone ahead and raped her, at the same time disgusted with what he was, and he was in a sort of limbo.

Why would Spike be disgusted with himself? He had no conscience. Disappointed that his plan to make Buffy love him backfired, sure. to be disgusted by one's actions, one needs to have a conscience. If he can be disgusted with himself why is that happening only in regards to Buffy? Why isn't he disgusted by his thousands of murders too?

 

[Willow My Love]

Angel lived in a gutter for a long time before he came to terms with having his soul, which wasn't all that long before he met Buffy, right? Maybe the possibility that he could lose it made it just that much more valuable to him.

He was fighting the good fight. And even if he had gotten his soul to be with Buffy, all the things Joyce talked to him about were still true.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

to be disgusted by one's actions, one needs to have a conscience. If he can be disgusted with himself why is that happening only in regards to Buffy? Why isn't he disgusted by his thousands of murders too?

Spike had developed a conscience, for all intents and purposes, albeit not a fully formed one. It's what prevented him from actively choosing to do bad things from mid season 5 onward, which the exception of the event in SR. The lack of full insight into everything he'd done, (the murders), is something he gained with his soul, (as he discusses in season 7). The chip and humanity allowed him this makeshift awareness that informed him what not to do, immediately, to the people to whom he was closest. As I've pointed out, the fact that he couldn't kill them on his own wouldn't have prevented him from plotting against any of them, having them killed. And he could have chosen whether or not to claim credit for it, depending on what better served his interests. The fact that he stopped doing those things indicates strongly that he did possess some morality and conscience. And the fact that that wasn't enough--that he wanted more--further serves to illustrate this.

It also seems that the recurring argument against Spike and for Angel regarding the motivation for seeking a soul/fighting for the greater good, is that Spike's inspiration is fully "selfish" and Angel's is based on the need to be redeemed. Well, both needs are selfish. And there's nothing wrong with that; certainly, that shouldn't downplay the significance of what it is they do/did.

To go after a soul in the immediate interest of appealing to the person you want to be with, and love, is selfish. For that matter, so is buying them a really great birthday gift. The analogy is clear, no? It's selfless, too, for reasons which are depicted in the episodes themselves. Seeking redemption in the manner by which Angel does, is also selfish. Angel chooses to do it because it suits his needs; he deems it necessary and fulfilling, so he does it. He is inspired by guilt; guilt propels him to atone, and acting in the interest of appeasing one's guilt is inherently very selfish. Selfless as well. When people are doing good things for others or for the greater good, though their motivations might be fueled by a desire to achieve something in self interest, that is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. And as selfishness and selflessness are often not mutually exclusive, such deeds usually contain aspects of both.

The fact that there may be inherent selfishness in a deed should not take away the virtue of the act. In fact it's nearly impossible to name an action that is not at least partially inspired by selfishness. It's when a deed is committed in the interest of the self alone, and/or at the expense of others, that there is a problem. I don't see how Spike's quest for a soul falls under that category.

 

[Kairos]

Also, there are 2 kinds of redemption at play, (or two perceptions of it anyhow). One is through the eyes of a soulless Spike who assumes that redemption means getting people (mostly Buffy) to love him and forgive him. That having a soul translates into not making mistakes, ever. He is of course wrong. Once he has his soul, he is truly miserable, as he realizes how wretched he was as a vampire, and that perhaps he had a lot more to atone for than he'd realized. Atoning by vampiric standards was very noble of him but with the soul's clarity he realized that atoning by human standards would require more. And he was depressed, believing he wasn't worth it, and that he'd never be able to make it up.

Okay. That much is at least conceivable. I still wouldn't hand him too much credit, since I think his erroneous soulless assumption at the starting line kind of nullifies any good intentions of the act itself, but my larger issue was that the quest for the soul was being factored into Spike's redemption meter at all. I prefer your reading of a change in his understanding of the matter once he has the influence of a soul.

This is what bothers and confuses me. Spike decided to call it a day...when? Throughout Ats he fought at Angel's side, (yes he resisted at first, still trying to figure out what the point was, and if true redemption was even possible. But by mid season he was fully there--actually it took him far less time to get there than it took Angel). Between Ats and Buffy 8 he is doing the same thing. Same in Buffy 8, though his priorities are more to do with her specific needs. Now in season 9,

Spoiler

he is becoming a bit lax, I'll admit. He's focusing on protecting Buffy and keeping an eye out for her. But Angel's focus is also directed away from the mission. In other words, neither vampire is selflessly sacrificing himself on a slab for the greater good this season. But I don't think it's fair to say that either perceives himself as being "done," either, as we have no indication of that.

If you accept the characterization of Season 9, I wonder if you'd also take into account the After the Fall comics, including this quote from Spike: "I earned my rest. I've proven myself. Not that I had to. I mean, I fought to get my soul back, what more do you want from me?" Even if you don't, I just want to point to it as evidence that I'm not the only one who interpreted Spike as being uninterested in keeping up the fight. It's pretty widely accepted among fans as a difference between Spike and Angel - ask what Spike's story is about and you'll get a range of answers, ask the same of Angel's and you'll generally hear "redemption".

Even from Spike's big fans, the answer to "Why isn't Spike seeking redemption?" seems to be "Because he doesn't need to" more often than "Yes he is." But I do not have scientific results on this because Illyria ate all my petri dishes.

 

[strawberryeve]

Yes, yes, and yes. But what would a vampire without a soul know about love except defining it as obsession and desire to share flesh - aka have sex- aka 'get into the girls pants' ? What you are trying to convey here is that the soul is needed to be able to understand higher aspects of love also known as 'love is sacrifice' also known as empathic connection. Either soulless Spike-y wants to get to this platonic sacrificial selfless level ( which is absurd, because as a demon he cannot appreciate its meaning ) or he is stuck at the basic level of understanding of 'love' which would be wanting coitus at any price - aka 'getting into the girls pants', again. Or I misunderstand you and you are trying to prove to me that Spike is fully aware of divine sacrificial possibility of love and desires it fully while without a soul.

PS

All of the above argument is still laughable free-will wise - because basically with a chip still in their head no one could claim they 'fought for their soul' purely because of the intrinsic goodness of their vampiric heart.

To the first question I say, Yes
and to the second, why not?

I think its absurd to say Spike went to all those lengths just to get into Buffy's pants - especially since he didn't pursue a romantic relationship with her afterwards. He was is a romantic man and a romantic vampire. All the vampires, evil, soulless or not are capable of good and bad and in different degrees. They are also capable of deep love, deep passion, hatred, etc. How the demon inside expresses that depends on the vampire. Or are you watching a different show?

 

[dexeded]

[MENTION=11629]Ripper666[/MENTION] I can only speak from the BtVS side of things because I haven't yet seen Spike on AtS. To me, Spike has fought on the side of "good" for one of two reasons: 1. He had a chip and if he wanted to fight, that was his only choice. 2. He fought on the side of Buffy to get her attention and to try to impress/woo her. Now, I haven't seen S7 in a looong time, so maybe my impressions will change after my re-watch.

The chip argument is completely true for S4 and S5 Spike, and to an extent, S6 Spike. In the summer between S5 and S6 (and S6 itself), he was clearly fighting alongside for Scoobies for Buffy and Dawn--more specifically, the promise he made to Buffy to protect Dawn. In S7, the chip is completely irrelevant to his desire to fight on the side of "good". As for the 'try to impress/woo her' argument... also wholly true in S5 and S6, but invalid in S7. S7 was all about his soul and his past crimes (AR of Buffy features highly in that, I imagine). Maybe part of him thought could get her back with a soul, seeing as he did that a soul fixes everything (i.e. the vampire that was Buffy's 'forever love' had a soul; Buffy couldn't love him because he was a soulless demon), but after getting a soul, he gets all the weight of his crimes and so much more than he actually gambled for. Even after seeing Angel brooding about past crimes, he still couldn't comprehend the actual weight of the guilt that would come with the soul, until he actually got it. (That's not to undermine the credit he gets for actually earning his soul, though. Just that getting the soul was about him rising above himself, but it definitely wasn't selfless.)

Why the hell should Spike care about that? He certainly didn't when he hit the other woman he "loved" on the head and basically drug her to his cave. He then kidnapped Buffy - still no pangs of guilt whatsoever. Then a year later it suddenly it dawns on him that hurting people ain't cool? Okay...

That was in "Crush", when he just realized his feelings for her, and they were messy and sick and obsessed (still were in S6, him being a soulless vamp, but a lot less so). A lot happened in that year. It doesn't dawn on him that hurting people ain't cool, it's more like hurting Buffy isn't.

Why would Spike be disgusted with himself? He had no conscience. Disappointed that his plan to make Buffy love him backfired, sure. to be disgusted by one's actions, one needs to have a conscience.

You don't need to have a conscience to be disgusted with yourself. You just have to have a set of values to follow. Maybe not the traditional ones, like the conscience 'thou shalt not kill' kind, but your own beliefs nonetheless. He violated those in two ways: One was that he'd never hurt Buffy ("I don't hurt you."); the other was the conflicting conviction that he was still essentially a soulless evil demon, who would have gone through with the AR. Ergo, confusion and disgust. Something had to give.

If he can be disgusted with himself why is that happening only in regards to Buffy? Why isn't he disgusted by his thousands of murders too?

He wasn't disgusted by his past massacres because he still didn't have a conscience.

 

[ladydorotea]

I think its absurd to say Spike went to all those lengths just to get into Buffy's pants - especially since he didn't pursue a romantic relationship with her afterwards.

The whole concept of getting a soul then confuses you. Because looking from my perspective it is perfectly clear how a soulles vampire differs from a souled one - and clear as well, why the former would go for a rape , then self-torture-mutilation (aka getting a soul) to get to feed his obsession ( ie get into her pants), but a souled entity would finally see that love ain't defined by just 'doing it often enough'. It is *that* simple.

He was is a romantic man and a romantic vampire.

Maybe we should stop this discussion here... and I have to clarify that I do not normally read books like Twilight... but yeah, I guess one can put 'soulless vampire' and 'romantic' into the same sentence from that perspective...

All the vampires, evil, soulless or not are capable of good and bad and in different degrees. They are also capable of deep love, deep passion, hatred, etc. How the demon inside expresses that depends on the vampire. Or are you watching a different show?

Yeah, I think you and I definitely watch different shows.

You don't need to have a conscience to be disgusted with yourself. You just have to have a set of values to follow.

But is not it one and the same ? Where we not reminded many times over that vampires are undead possessed by bloodsucking demons - and their 'values' cannot ever overcome their instincts ? Is not what was always implied in a nature of a soul 'that what separates us from the beasts' ? The whole 'good souless vampire' concept cheapens the entire moral dimension of the show to the point of absurdity.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Okay. That much is at least conceivable. I still wouldn't hand him too much credit, since I think his erroneous soulless assumption at the starting line kind of nullifies any good intentions of the act itself,

But though his assumption regarding what having a soul would mean was incorrect, the act of getting one was incredibly noble since the motivation was. Getting the soul was for love, sure, and not to save the world. But why doesn't he get credit for it? Or why is the goodness of it nullified? He did something incredible for the person he loves...as a vampire. That part is unchanged, even though his understanding of the scope of it changed upon receiving it.

If you accept the characterization of Season 9, I wonder if you'd also take into account the After the Fall comics, including this quote from Spike: "I earned my rest. I've proven myself. Not that I had to. I mean, I fought to get my soul back, what more do you want from me?" Even if you don't, I just want to point to it as evidence that I'm not the only one who interpreted Spike as being uninterested in keeping up the fight. It's pretty widely accepted among fans as a difference between Spike and Angel - ask what Spike's story is about and you'll get a range of answers, ask the same of Angel's and you'll generally hear "redemption".

Which comic is it from? I haven't read the Angel series from IDW; just the Spike spin-off, (which is considered canonical). In it, he goes to LA on a mission that Angel refused. In the "Devil you Know" spinoff which I haven't read fully, the synopsis describes him off fighting evil and going up against yet another plot to destroy the world. So, it says two things to me:
1) He's still clearly fighting for good, whether himself calls it active redemption seeking is another thing. He says things like the above quotation because often he resists ideas with words when backed into a corner( especially when Angel is involved); when the notion occurs to him that it's time to do something, he acts upon it. Not knowing, (or not remembering) the context of that quote, that's all I can provide, but:

2)This is the problem with handing characters off to other various teams of writers, whose individual stories probably aren't all checked by Joss, (though the arcs are). I think it was hard enough for the group of writers on the show, handing characters off between episodes, to maintain consistent characterization, so I don't expect it to be clean, here. All I know is that Spike isn't actually resting on his laurels, (although apparently in this instance he says he is), and he's fulfilling missions Angel won't take on. Keeping up the fight. Certainly in the Btvs comics his priorities have shifted back onto Buffy and helping her mission specifically. Which is classic Spike, but doesn't mean he's "done" saving people any more than she is.

In terms of Spike seeking redemption from the eyes of fans, my answer is that he doesn't need to but is anyway. Most important of all to him is to be redeemed to the specific people he's hurt. And when he fights, no one is forcing him. He doesn't care about titles and maybe isn't sure yet what it all means, but he knows he wants to be a part of it, and he is. Show me Spike moving away to some remote location (with or without B) where there are no demons and no missions, and I'll concede that he indeed thinks he's done!

 

[ladydorotea]

Which comic is it from? I haven't read the Angel series from IDW;

You have not read the AtF #1-17? Then you definitely would not understand each other. It has a lot of Spike development ( but the most amazing arc is Gunn's) and is considered canon - because it was actually based on Whedon's plan for AtS S6. It is what Spike Spin-off spins off, sorry for the pun. There is also Spike, after the Fall semi-canon book that you might enjoy. Not reading AtF before S8-9 might be a matter of personal choice - but this way you deliberately blank out on a big chunk of canon material, and when Illyria will finally show up in S9 you might get confused.

 

[dexeded]

But is not it one and the same ? Where we not reminded many times over that vampires are undead possessed by bloodsucking demons - and their 'values' cannot ever overcome their instincts ? Is not what was always implied in a nature of a soul 'that what separates us from the beasts' ? The whole 'good souless vampire' concept cheapens the entire moral dimension of the show to the point of absurdity.

No, it's not the same. Vamps can have their own set of values and beliefs, preferences and individual tastes. A conscience is an entirely different thing--as I said, the 'thou shalt not kill' sort of thing is definitely thrown out of the window as a vamp. What we've been told time and time again is either a product of the Watchers' Council or that the values that cannot overcome their instincts are their human moral values, as in the 'thou shalt not kill' ones. Human personality and traits remain, as we have learned. Vampires are thinking creatures. They reason, make judgements, decisions, plans... Their primary concern is bloodlust as fledglings, and still is as they advance in age, but they still think, talk, even, in some cases (not just Spike, also the vampire couple seen in "Angel"), love. They have their own way of thinking and set of beliefs and predilections. Anyway, I went onto elaborate on my point of feeling disgusted with himself in the full version of the post you quoted.

 

[PassionBecoming]

The chip argument is completely true for S4 and S5 Spike, and to an extent, S6 Spike. In the summer between S5 and S6 (and S6 itself), he was clearly fighting alongside for Scoobies for Buffy and Dawn--more specifically, the promise he made to Buffy to protect Dawn. In S7, the chip is completely irrelevant to his desire to fight on the side of "good". As for the 'try to impress/woo her' argument... also wholly true in S5 and S6, but invalid in S7. S7 was all about his soul and his past crimes (AR of Buffy features highly in that, I imagine). Maybe part of him thought could get her back with a soul, seeing as he did that a soul fixes everything (i.e. the vampire that was Buffy's 'forever love' had a soul; Buffy couldn't love him because he was a soulless demon), but after getting a soul, he gets all the weight of his crimes and so much more than he actually gambled for. Even after seeing Angel brooding about past crimes, he still couldn't comprehend the actual weight of the guilt that would come with the soul, until he actually got it. (That's not to undermine the credit he gets for actually earning his soul, though. Just that getting the soul was about him rising above himself, but it definitely wasn't selfless.)

Yes, I definitely agree that S7 was a different ball game for Spike. I just haven't seen it recently enough to speak on it much. I think he really bit off a bigger bite than he reckoned for when he got his soul back!