Angel's Soul

[ladydorotea]

No, it's not the same. Vamps can have their own set of values and beliefs, preferences and individual tastes.

This I can accept. The point though is - values in a vamp is about as solid thing as rotted ice. For all intents and purposes they are fancies. One cannot get seriously disgusted with themselves over switching the color of nail polish - and this is about the level of meaning I assign to soulles vampire 'values'.

I went onto elaborate on my point of feeling disgusted with himself in the full version of the post you quoted.

I got it, and it just does not work for me. Feeling disgusted is a wet blanket of emotion. Ain't passionate enough a motivator. Obsession, rage, lust, desperation can drive one to length that disgust, IMHO, cannot.

I will give a little ground to you here though: RE: chip. After Seeing Red Spike is in a situation where the status quo have definitely been seriously upset - he is in a desperate situation survival-wise. Either he is on his own with a chip in his head and unable to feed on anything of sustenance - or he has to 'do something'. So yeah, he gambles. Nothing much to loose - and potential win is big.

 

[white avenger]

Why did Angel never try to seek the "full, unabridged version"? That way he could have had a soul, and also experienced happiness.

Was it his guilt? He didn't believe he deserved a full soul?

Do you think it would have impacted the show in a good, or a bad way if this had happened?

Do you think he was less determined than Spike, would Angel not have wanted to fight so hard for a soul?

Opinions please 😀

Probably, if Angel had ever been aware of the "legend" that Spike sought out in order to regain his soul, he never gave it much credence, or maybe the cave demon legend wasn't as much about specifically regaining one's soul as it was that by undergoing certain tests, trials, and tortures, one could attain their single greatest desire. (Just imagine the conflict of spells if Angel achieving a release from the loophole in his curse actually gave him that moment of complete happiness. Could he actually lose his soul in the process of having it "repaired?" Astronauts vs cavemen time again!)

Also, the possibly exists that the cave demons would only deal with soulless beings, making Angel ineligible to deal with them.

Or, maybe all that the cave demons were able to do was a total installation of a new soul in a soulless recipient. No repair work.

Or maybe Joss just wrote it that way, hoping that no one would notice.

 

[PassionBecoming]

Probably, if Angel had ever been aware of the "legend" that Spike sought out in order to regain his soul, he never gave it much credence, or maybe the cave demon legend wasn't as much about specifically regaining one's soul as it was that by undergoing certain tests, trials, and tortures, one could attain their single greatest desire. (Just imagine the conflict of spells if Angel achieving a release from the loophole in his curse actually gave him that moment of complete happiness. Could he actually lose his soul in the process of having it "repaired?" Astronauts vs cavemen time again!)

Also, the possibly exists that the cave demons would only deal with soulless beings, making Angel ineligible to deal with them.

Or, maybe all that the cave demons were able to do was a total installation of a new soul in a soulless recipient. No repair work.

Or maybe Joss just wrote it that way, hoping that no one would notice.

I was wondering about all of the above; it might not have been possible for Angel to even go to the demon. Though I'm thinking it's the last one. 🙂

 

[Icarium]

That was in "Crush", when he just realized his feelings for her, and they were messy and sick and obsessed (still were in S6, him being a soulless vamp, but a lot less so). A lot happened in that year. It doesn't dawn on him that hurting people ain't cool, it's more like hurting Buffy isn't.

He hadn't just realized his feelings in Crush, that happened ten episodes earlier.

You don't need to have a conscience to be disgusted with yourself. You just have to have a set of values to follow.

Again, no soul=no values. It's an easy way to live. In the not so great timespan we watched Spike in S2-6 we saw him betray Drusilla, Angel, Buffy, Harmony and do the usual cruch, kil land destroy other vampires do. What exactly are his values?

e violated those in two ways: One was that he'd never hurt Buffy ("I don't hurt you."); the other was the conflicting conviction that he was still essentially a soulless evil demon, who would have gone through with the AR. Ergo, confusion and disgust. Something had to give.

But Spike is supposed to enjoy being a soulless evil demon. Remember when he tried to commit suicide because he missed killing that much? He could be evil and still have Buffy if he would only turn her, something that should have been no more difficult than those demonic trials.

Spike had developed a conscience, for all intents and purposes, albeit not a fully formed one. It's what prevented him from actively choosing to do bad things from mid season 5 onward, which the exception of the event in SR.

That would be the chip. Remember when he thought the chip had stopped working - Spike immediately tried to kill some random woman. There was also the demon eggs incident.

As I've pointed out, the fact that he couldn't kill them on his own wouldn't have prevented him from plotting against any of them, having them killed.

It wouldn't but the plot contrivance would. Just as it did in S4-5, except for a few isolated incidents. I mean, it's not like he couldn't send some minions after the Scoobies back then either.

I think its absurd to say Spike went to all those lengths just to get into Buffy's pants - especially since he didn't pursue a romantic relationship with her afterwards.

He didn't? Why did he go back to Sunnydale and hang around Buffy then? Because he loved listening to her silly speeches that much?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Again, no soul=no values. It's an easy way to live. In the not so great timespan we watched Spike in S2-6 we saw him betray Drusilla, Angel, Buffy, Harmony and do the usual cruch, kil land destroy other vampires do. What exactly are his values?

When you say that Spike "betrayed" Angel and Drusilla, are you referring to the plot to take down Angelus and Drusilla, so that the world wouldn't end? Because I don't see how that's an example of him not having values.

That would be the chip. Remember when he thought the chip had stopped working - Spike immediately tried to kill some random woman. There was also the demon eggs incident.

In the first place, I don't think he would have gone through with the kill; he didn't try to kill her, he tried to convince himself to kill her. But that's not really a debatable point since there's no concrete proof that he would have done one thing or the other. I say it wasn't merely the chip.

The demon eggs? Aside from being entirely OOC at that point in his development, I categorize it in the same place I do SR; not yet a fully formed conscience, (ergo the need for the soul, yet the realization it should be there and the inherent contradiction therein), and the fact that people with souls, consciences, and partridges in pear trees do things just like it and far worse. In other words: those acts don't negate the possibility of having a conscience. Just basing that on humanity! In any case, further proof of some morality and conscience is his reaction to his misdeeds: freaking doing something about it! "To be the kind of man who would never."

Just as it did in S4-5, except for a few isolated incidents. I mean, it's not like he couldn't send some minions after the Scoobies back then either.

The learned morality and underdeveloped conscience that Spike acquired, after having had the chip for a while, did not exist in season 4 and early season 5. Which is precisely why he conspired with Adam, nearly got Riley killed in order to get his chip out at his expense, and sat around thinking about how he'd love to kill them all. When he stopped having these inclinations later, clearly he had begun to change.

Why did he go back to Sunnydale and hang around Buffy then? Because he loved listening to her silly speeches that much?

Because he loved her, and that was enough. Name one time he tried to make a move on her, or tried to reignite a physical relationship with her, post getting a soul.

I also wanted to point out that when I say that Spike had this sort of makeshift, underdeveloped conscience and morality, what I mean is that when it comes to doing good, and not doing bad, Spike learns what the differences are through Buffy, the way a child often does--case by case. This wouldn't be possible without the chip and the humanity; I'm not trying to imply that Spike had it within him the whole time.

But these learned behaviors lead to an actual change in Spike. Empathy, (see "Spiral," "Tough Love.") Companionship/comradery, (see "Weight of the World," "Bargaining.") Misery at the loss of a loved one, ("The Gift.") A selfless reaction, (see his response to Buffy's arrival in "After Life;" all he'd wanted was to be with her but he didn't want her to be brought back when the risk was great that she'd have to be killed again. For her sake.) See also "Intervention" for selflessness.

So we can claim that he can't have had these traits before seeking his soul-- and that a desire for getting the soul couldn't have been based upon anything good--because it's not "logical." But when the show makes it clear that there are plenty of examples in which Spike has learned to do good things, exhibit truly human emotions, and make decisions that are morally appropriate, I have to question why it is a stretch to think that he could have quested for a soul with noble intentions.

Angel's soul was forced upon him, and its existence--Angel's goodness--is dependent upon someone cursing him in the first place, and then not deciding to do a spell to take it away. Why is that something that's easier to hang one's hat on, so to speak?

 

[Icarium]

When you say that Spike "betrayed" Angel and Drusilla, are you referring to the plot to take down Angelus and Drusilla, so that the world wouldn't end? Because I don't see how that's an example of him not having values.

The same reason why Angel killing the Beast doesn't make his soulless version a nice guy. Spike betrayed Angel because it was very much in his self-interest to do so. Later on he did the same with Buffy.

The learned morality and underdeveloped conscience that Spike acquired, after having had the chip for a while, did not exist in season 4 and early season 5. Which is precisely why he conspired with Adam, nearly got Riley killed in order to get his chip out at his expense, and sat around thinking about how he'd love to kill them all. When he stopped having these inclinations later, clearly he had begun to change.

So your proof that Spike stopped having those inclinations is that his later plans never actually harmed the Scobies, never mind that this is just as true about his early plans? This happened because otherwise it would have been even harder to justify not staking him. Also, he did try to rape Buffy, so I guess he must have had those inclination, after all.

In the first place, I don't think he would have gone through with the kill; he didn't try to kill her, he tried to convince himself to kill her.

As you said, there is no proof for that and even if that were the case, Spike's first reaction to finding out the chip is not working is to lie to Buffy that this is not the case (some love, that!) and then try to kill someone. He could have just tried to point a weapon at someone if he merely wanted to check the chip's functionality, so I am really not buying the idea that he wouldn't have gone though with the kill either.

The demon eggs? Aside from being entirely OOC at that point in his development, I categorize it in the same place I do SR; not yet a fully formed conscience

I still think you are trying to have it both ways. When Spike does something bad it's somehow not a proof that he lacks a conscience, when he does something good, it's touted as proof that he did it because he was a proto-nice guy. I just don't see how one can have even partial conscience and not realise that rape and murder are not okay. Spike just going through the motions to impress Buffy without understanding one bit what conscience or guilt is seems much more obvious interpretation to me and it also doesn't require him to be a special vampiric snowflake.

Misery at the loss of a loved one

Also seen in Lyle Gorch and other vamps. Not indicative of being good in the slightest.

Companionship/comradery

See above.

A selfless reaction, (see his response to Buffy's arrival in "After Life;" all he'd wanted was to be with her but he didn't want her to be brought back when the risk was great that she'd have to be killed again. For her sake

Are we talking about the same Spike who was totally cool with trying to resurrect Joyce? He was just pissed they didn't inform him. If his love was so selfless he wouldn't have spent the season trying to convince Buffy to "join in the dark" with him.

See also "Intervention" for selflessness.

We have been through that too many times, let's repeat that I still don't see how trying to prolong your life is selflessness.

 

[ladydorotea]

So we can claim that he can't have had these traits before seeking his soul-- and that a desire for getting the soul couldn't have been based upon anything good--because it's not "logical."

It's not just that. It is also the fact that the show made it certain to give Spike his most condemning bits of dialog during his soul-getting quest. 'Let the bitch get what she deserves.' There is absolutely no way you can logic these away with some benign explanation. True, there other bits later on in S7 - but that would be a souled being speaking, trying to put the best facade on his own actions and explain it to himself.

There is no way you can go on believing a demon with a chip in his head that controlled his feeding behavior had a free choice of 'doing the right thing' and then used that exact phrase 'let the bitch get what she deserves' to proclaim his honorable intention of 'becoming a better man'.

But when the show makes it clear that there are plenty of examples in which Spike has learned to do good things, exhibit truly human emotions, and make decisions that are morally appropriate, I have to question why it is a stretch to think that he could have quested for a soul with noble intentions.

All still done not at *free will* but with a chip in his head... and continuously risking starvation/annihilation.

Angel's soul was forced upon him, and its existence--Angel's goodness--is dependent upon someone cursing him in the first place, and then not deciding to do a spell to take it away. Why is that something that's easier to hang one's hat on, so to speak?

Well, technically so was Spike's. He was captured, operated on, starved, abused and finally faced with a situation when he had either to lead an extremely miserable existence - or gamble it all for a possible gain of some stature and feeding his greatest obsession. Spike is a gambler by nature - and if not a combination of all of the above ( brutally forced on him) there is no way he would have ever went to get a soul.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

The same reason why Angel killing the Beast doesn't make his soulless version a nice guy. Spike betrayed Angel because it was very much in his self-interest to do so.

I'm not saying it made him a nice guy, (this was season 2 for crying out loud). I'm saying it means he had values, even back then. Also, Angel killed the best as a power play and because he resented being manipulated by another so-called "more monstrous" entity. Not because he valued saving the world. As we know from his attempt to destroy it. So, not the same thing.

So your proof that Spike stopped having those inclinations is that his later plans never actually harmed the Scobies, never mind that this is just as true about his early plans?

No, my proof is that Spike never had any further inclinations to harm the scoobies. Not that his later plans didn't harm them; that he didn't want them to, and never tried to go against them. Even sans Buffy.

Also, he did try to rape Buffy, so I guess he must have had those inclination, after all.

He tried to get Buffy to engage in a physical relationship with him again, in a desperate, enraged, and violent way. He hadn't wanted to rape her. When he realized that he almost did, he was shocked and horrified at himself. So proof that his inclination wasn't to hurt her was just as much in his reaction to what he'd almost done this time, as it was in the lack of doing it, other times. Obviously if one interprets that scene differently, we'll never agree on this point.

is to lie to Buffy that this is not the case (some love, that!)

So if one ever lies to another, or ever misjudges how to act around another, he/she can't possibly love them? In what world is love completely flawless and perfect? In a world in which human beings are, which doesn't exist. Add to that the fact that he's a vampire, and love is certainly not negated.

I still think you are trying to have it both ways. When Spike does something bad it's somehow not a proof that he lacks a conscience, when he does something good, it's touted as proof that he did it because he was a proto-nice guy.

But I think you're misunderstanding me. Just as real normal joe nice guys in the real world can do terrible things, so too can a vampire on the verge of becoming something other than a monster, screw up. I'm not having it both ways when I say that; I'm being realistic. Forget real life if you want: almost every single other character does some very good and very bad things in the show. Yet somehow the good they do is not negated by the bad. Why should it be any different for Spike? It's a double standard.
If anything, the only standards that should be different apply to the discrepancy in nature and composition; and yes, when a vampire does something truly good in spite of himself, that is very impressive and should be regarded as such.

And for the record: when Spike does something bad I am attributing it to--not a lack of conscience--but a lack of fully formed conscience and moral awareness. I fully acknowledge that he's got something to be desired in that regard, and so would he.

I just don't see how one can have even partial conscience and not realise that rape and murder are not okay.

Neither can I. Spike realized that both murder and rape were not ok, even without his soul. It's why he didn't try to have any scoobies murdered, and when he realized that he'd almost raped Buffy he deemed it so not ok that he changed his very composition to prevent it from happening again.

Spike just going through the motions to impress Buffy without understanding one bit what conscience or guilt is seems much more obvious interpretation to me and it also doesn't require him to be a special vampiric snowflake.

So he was still trying to impress her by saving the scoobies and Dawn every night after Buffy was dead? And clearly he had no conscience or guilt when he reassured Tara that the sunlight hadn't hurt him in spite of his frying hand, encouraging her to keep opening the curtains at his expense and playing it down all the while? No conscience or guilt when he realized what he'd almost done to Buffy?

Also seen in Lyle Gorch and other vamps. Not indicative of being good in the slightest.

I'm referring to comradery between Spike and humans, not between Spike and other vamps. Comradery in and of itself is obviously not inherently good, but Spike developing it with regard to Xander at the end of season 5 is indicative of progress toward humanity.

Are we talking about the same Spike who was totally cool with trying to resurrect Joyce?

I don't remember him being totally cool. I remember him discovering what Dawn was up to, warning her that she should stay away from it, telling her no good could come from it. Once he saw she was determined, he reasoned that if she was going to do it anyway she should do it with the guidance of someone who might have a decent shot at pulling it off; or at the very least, providing her with more information.

If his love was so selfless he wouldn't have spent the season trying to convince Buffy to "join in the dark" with him.

Right, he's not selfless by nature, (how many people are?) He does selfless things. He also does selfish things.

 

[Icarium]

I'm saying it means he had values, even back then.

What values would that be - it's cool to kidnap a woman for daring to have a free will? Because that's what Spike did. If anything his actions in Becoming foreshadow Crush and Seeing Red. He most certainly didn't go against Angel and Dru because they were evil.

Also, Angel killed the best as a power play and because he resented being manipulated by another so-called "more monstrous" entity. Not because he valued saving the world.

Neither did Spike, he literally shrugged and left Buffy fight Angel on her own - when Angel seemed to be winning, mind you. Spike also was very much excited by the prospect of The Judge burning all humans. His claim that he was helping Buffy because he loved the world is about as believable as Angel's claim that he signalled her with his eyes.

So if one ever lies to another, or ever misjudges how to act around another, he/she can't possibly love them?

No, I am saying that the ease with which Spike deceives Buffy with the goal of continuing to kill people which is against everything she stands for tells me he understands love as much as he understands nuclear physics.

If anything, the only standards that should be different apply to the discrepancy in nature and composition; and yes, when a vampire does something truly good in spite of himself, that is very impressive and should be regarded as such.

Only if you believe that this is actually the case and not just Spike trying to score some points with Buffy like when he wanted credit for not feeding off dead people in Triangle. And even if he does something in spite of himself, this begs the question why he waited more than a hundred years to do so?

No, my proof is that Spike never had any further inclinations to harm the scoobies. Not that his later plans didn't harm them; that he didn't want them to, and never tried to go against them. Even sans Buffy.

Easily explained with simple self-preservation instinct and the show's refusal to explore the many avenues available to Spike to do damage even with the chip. Glory could have easily tortured everyone close to Buffy to make her give up The Key, she didn't do it becuase the plot said so. Ditto for Spike.

So he was still trying to impress her by saving the scoobies and Dawn every night after Buffy was dead?

He likes to fight and demons and vampires wanted to have nothing to do with him. It was either the Scoobies or watching soap operas all day long. 🙂

And clearly he had no conscience or guilt when he reassured Tara that the sunlight hadn't hurt him in spite of his frying hand, encouraging her to keep opening the curtains at his expense and playing it down all the while?

Pissing off a mentally ill witch or her girlfriend who had just gone berserk in the previous episode isn't a good survival strategy. In any event, this is easily explained with the "even evil has standards" trope or Tara reminding Spike of Dru. No need to jump to conclusion he exhibited conscience.

I'm referring to comradery between Spike and humans, not between Spike and other vamps. Comradery in and of itself is obviously not inherently good, but Spike developing it with regard to Xander at the end of season 5 is indicative of progress toward humanity.

Not if the Scoobies are the only creatures in Sunnydale who would give Spike the time of day. Well, this later gets retconned with Clem and so on but I will joyfully ignore this.

I don't remember him being totally cool. I remember him discovering what Dawn was up to, warning her that she should stay away from it, telling her no good could come from it. Once he saw she was determined, he reasoned that if she was going to do it anyway she should do it with the guidance of someone who might have a decent shot at pulling it off; or at the very least, providing her with more information.

Any way you slice it he still helped Dawn, using his own logic in regards to Buffy, Dawn almost succeeding would have been worse than her not being able to cast the spell at all.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

What values would that be - it's cool to kidnap a woman for daring to have a free will? Because that's what Spike did. If anything his actions in Becoming foreshadow Crush and Seeing Red. He most certainly didn't go against Angel and Dru because they were evil.

Not "cool to kidnap a woman." I for one would never say that Spike was good at this point but there is no indication that that's what his goal was. His goal was to help Buffy avert an apocalypse and yes because he was wholly evil, he gave up in the end once he had Dru for himself. But even if his actions did foreshadow Crush and Seeing Red, I would happily accept that because at this point Spike was an evil vampire and nothing had yet occurred in his life to make him otherwise.
The values were to keep on living. Purely selfish, sure. I'm merely arguing that they were there, not that they were to be considered gold or something.

Only if you believe that this is actually the case and not just Spike trying to score some points with Buffy like when he wanted credit for not feeding off dead people in Triangle.

Why can't it be both?! Why can't he do something genuinely good and want credit for it? But I didn't cite what he did in "Triangle" as an example for a reason; that was an example of, yes, something he did merely to impress Buffy. It didn't impress me either in and of itself. But I took it as evidence that he was adapting, learning how to behave. That's really significant. For a vampire.

And even if he does something in spite of himself, this begs the question why he waited more than a hundred years to do so?

Well we've battled this out before, but I'll just say: chip, learned behavior, love, improvement. AKA, wasn't there before. Couldn't have happened. 😉

Easily explained with simple self-preservation instinct and the show's refusal to explore the many avenues available to Spike to do damage even with the chip.

One can attempt to easily explain anything with anything. The show didn't explore those avenues because it wanted to illustrate for us that Spike was changing. I could also explain away the fact that Spike for example, didn't kill Joyce in her living room in season 2 was because he was madly and passionately in love with her, but I don't happen to think that's the case.

He likes to fight and demons and vampires wanted to have nothing to do with him. It was either the Scoobies or watching soap operas all day long. 🙂

So he can't get credit for one single thing because we can always argue that he was merely doing it out of boredom or trying to fit in? I wonder how many other characters we can apply that to. 🙂

Pissing off a mentally ill witch or her girlfriend who had just gone berserk in the previous episode isn't a good survival strategy. In any event, this is easily explained with the "even evil has standards" trope or Tara reminding Spike of Dru. No need to jump to conclusion he exhibited conscience.

Er but that kind of sounds like just categorically dismissing it because it simply can't be, no?

Any way you slice it he still helped Dawn, using his own logic in regards to Buffy, Dawn almost succeeding would have been worse than her not being able to cast the spell at all.

A judgment call made by a vampire is not always the one you want to support. My point was that Spike was consistent in his assertion that bringing back the dead is a mistake. If he thought Dawn (and the spell) would have been better off with more information, that doesn't negate it. Also, all of this occurred before "Bargaining." Isn't possible that by then his misgivings had doubled as a result?

It is also the fact that the show made it certain to give Spike his most condemning bits of dialog during his soul-getting quest. 'Let the bitch get what she deserves.'

And it's ridiculous that he said those things. I can link to about 5 quotes in a minute in which writers and Joss say that they had him do that in order to misdirect the audience which I find extremely insulting to our intelligence. Why did they have to make us think he felt the "opposite" of what he truly felt, by having him say those things, instead of trusting us to interpret on our own that he wanted to do something for Buffy? But what can I say. They also claim that he truly wanted his soul the whole time, for the sake of being a better man. And so does he.

Well, technically so was Spike's. He was captured, operated on, starved, abused and finally faced with a situation when he had either to lead an extremely miserable existence - or gamble it all for a possible gain of some stature and feeding his greatest obsession. Spike is a gambler by nature - and if not a combination of all of the above ( brutally forced on him) there is no way he would have ever went to get a soul.

If Spike's getting a soul isn't credited as his own free will, rather merely inspired by desperation and abuse, then Angel doesn't get credit for anything either; his good deeds and guilt are merely the product of a vengeful family. Everything he does is forced upon him and is not inherently his.

Of course our lot in life and the things to which we are exposed help to inform what we become and what we choose to do. Though I disagree with the why of Spike's soul getting, I do agree that without exposure to certain circumstances, he would never have done it. But I don't see why Spike doesn't get credit for his actions.

 

[Icarium]

The values were to keep on living.

That's no value, every living being has the survival instinct. Second, Spike was going to keep on living even if Acathla had sent everyone into his hell realm, so I don't see your point at all.

Why can't it be both?! Why can't he do something genuinely good and want credit for it?

He can, the point is this doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

The show didn't explore those avenues because it wanted to illustrate for us that Spike was changing.

Maybe but they did such a sloppy job that they utterly failed to convince me.

So he can't get credit for one single thing because we can always argue that he was merely doing it out of boredom or trying to fit in? I wonder how many other characters we can apply that to.

If you want to prove that a character's behaviour goes against established mythology, then yes, first you need to refute all other possible explanations which do not do that.

My point was that Spike was consistent in his assertion that bringing back the dead is a mistake.

Only if you believe he wouldn't have jumped on the chance to resurrect Buffy had he been told about it which I don't. And if he believes Buffy is better off death, why does he save her OMWF? Hypocrisy, the name is Spike.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

He can, the point is this doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

It doesn't disprove anything either; why does it get dismissed as meaningless?

Only if you believe he wouldn't have jumped on the chance to resurrect Buffy had he been told about it which I don't. And if he believes Buffy is better off death, why does he save her OMWF? Hypocrisy, the name is Spike.

I believe he wouldn't have done it, because he says he wouldn't have. Why lie? What could that have possibly gotten him? Nobody exactly cared what he thought about it anyway.

And why does he save her in OMWF? Well, simple: he doesn't want her to die. What he would and wouldn't do once she's already dead is an entirely different matter. He believes she's better off dead if she's already dead. Consequences, etc.

 

[ladydorotea]

Turning the question on its head again here. I just thought that if the writers team really wanted us to straightforwardly believe that Spike was going after a soul solely to be a 'better man', they should not have bothered with inventing an entirely new demon and new loophole of getting a soul. Why did not Spike simply went to Willow and asked her to curse him? Would have spared him the entire trip to Africa and a lot of uncertainty. True, that would have put his future prospects with Buffy into an ice bin - but also would have proven his purely noble intent. If the objections are that Willow was already dark by that time - well, he surely did not know that. He could have at least tried. Yet Spike never even thought about it as a possibility, and they had to invent a new God out of Machina trick to get that soul for him - meaning the idea was that Spike would have never went on his quest for a soul if it killed every possibility to 'get into the girl's pants'.

 

[Icarium]

It doesn't disprove anything either; why does it get dismissed as meaningless?

Because it doesn't prove anything and the burden of proof is on you, not me.

I believe he wouldn't have done it, because he says he wouldn't have. Why lie?

Because he feels useless for not being included in the resurrection. He also says he is going to stop Willow and the rest from destroying Zombie!Buffy if need be, something he couldn't possibly have done because of the chip, so I think he wasn't exactly thinking rationally, to put it mildly.

He believes she's better off dead if she's already dead.

Yes, but that makes no sense to me. Spike is technically also dead, I don't see him turning to dust just because this is the natural order of things, so I don't see him thinking Buffy should be dead either. Then again I see this scene as yet another ridiculously unsubtle hint about how Willow is up to no good, so I am inclined to hate it.

 

[wickedtiger86]

I believe this thread was meant to focus more on Angel's motivations and how and why he dealt with his soul.

And the Cast No Shadow had an interesting point about Angel, one that I was thinking about just the other day. Why didn't Angel work harder to find a way to keep his soul permanently?