Angel's Soul

[white avenger]

We all know the story of how Angel got his soul, and we found out in Season 2 that it wasn't necessarily a permanent thing, so my question is, as important as the issue is to him and to Buffy, why didn't he ever try to get the "perfect happiness" clause overridden somehow? Once he knew about it, and the implication that it had on any sort of real relationship with Buffy, why did he just accept it and never try to get it fixed? We know that there are beings in the Buffyverse powerful enough to give someone their soul, intact, with no strings attached. There are spells that can literally raise the dead, and they get their soul back. If those things and others could be done, fixing Angel's problem should have been possible, so why didn't he try to get it done?

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

My feel is that Angel never really felt 'worthy' of Buffy's love. He also never felt worthy enough to be able to have those moments of perfect happiness. That seems to be pretty blatantly displayed in the show, at least the second bit. It had nothing to do with him not loving Buffy completely and wholly(which he did, and always will,) it had nothing to do with him not wanting to be with her; It was simply because, after everything he'd done as Angelus, he simply didn't feel like he deserved it. Who knows if he'll ever feel like he deserves it enough to go and seek it out?

 

[Astral]

I don't think the soul thing was the only issue. They both knew it would never work out seeing as Angel wouldn't age and couldn't have children. *cough cough*

 

[Ripper666]

I never understood this. Why didn't he tried the same thing as Spike? This question made me think about very long. I have no clue... 🙁

 

[Jodast]

I can only assume that it was a karma thing and he didn't feel as though he was worthy of a soul with no strings attached. Also it would make his brooding so much less impactful 🙂

 

[WWGD]

For the story. People tend to get bored of a great relationship that lasts long for some reason. The writers didn't want to make it that easy. Plus then Joss wouldn't have been able to make an Angel spinoff 😛

 

[Angel6]

I think we actually see that answered directly in the gem of amara episode and I will Remember you. He needs to earn it and he needs to still be able to make a difference! If nothing we do matters, all that matters is what we do and all that!

 

[JCoatsworth]

First of all, I agree with [MENTION=11495]WWGD[/MENTION]. It's probably just because of the story. Would've been rather boring if everything had worked out perfectly.

But apart from that... yes, it's weird.
In Season 2, Willow gave Angel his soul back for the second time. I think it's very strange that they didn't just use a different spell for returning his soul.
Well, they probably didn't know another spell...

And I also have to say that the gypsies' spell was pretty lame. Isn't this totally senseless? He receives perfect happiness... and gets his soul back?!
In my opinion the gypsies shot themselves in the foot properly.

 

[ashleigh]

I say plot hole.

If it was a Karma thing, the I think it was pretty selfish. If he inadvertently had a moment of 'perfect happiness' he would have gone on to harm humans. I can't see as his redemption is beneficial to any one but him so would not justify that. Even if someone did redeem him, he would never stop feeling guilty anyway.

 

[brinkster130]

For the sake of the story (and the entire Buffyverse) they couldn't have a solution. If they were able to do a magic spell and give demons their souls then their work of killing the demons suddenly becomes very problematic.

This issue should have been addressed onscreen, especially after we saw Willow restore Angel's soul and after Spike went out and got his soul back. The fact that no one ever questioned soul's onscreen was a major fail on the writers part.

 

[PassionBecoming]

The whole basis of the gypsy curse never made sense to me, but rolling with what we have, I think it's as has been said above: Angel doesn't feel worthy have permanently having his soul/true happiness/becoming human/whatever. He feels he needs to atone for his evils and truly work for it. He didn't want it handed to him easily, and he felt like he still had a job to do.

This is why I never felt it selfish when Angel erased the day in IWRY and destroyed the Gem of Amara. (Also, I think it was good the Gem was destroyed, because a ring can get into the wrong hands a little too easily.) He didn't feel ready to be absolved for what he has done, and I respect that.

 

[mayfever]

I don't think we were ever meant to question the strings Angel's soul came attached with. Pretty much as everyone else already said, it was needed as the unsurmountable reason why Buffy and Angel could not be together, and on a grander scale, why Angel needs to fight for his redemption.

It is definitely somewhat of a plothole, but one that is fun fanwanking over. My personal explanation is that a "pure" no-strings-attached soul can't be shoved back into an unwilling body, which is why Angel is stuck with the curse and Spike can saunter off to Africa and pawn his one back.

 

[Kean]

The whole basis of the gypsy curse never made sense to me, but rolling with what we have, I think it's as has been said above: Angel doesn't feel worthy have permanently having his soul/true happiness/becoming human/whatever. He feels he needs to atone for his evils and truly work for it. He didn't want it handed to him easily, and he felt like he still had a job to do.

This is why I never felt it selfish when Angel erased the day in IWRY and destroyed the Gem of Amara. (Also, I think it was good the Gem was destroyed, because a ring can get into the wrong hands a little too easily.) He didn't feel ready to be absolved for what he has done, and I respect that.

The curse only ever makes sense if Angel knew about the clause, and known to avoid happiness at all costs. It would have imprisoned him in a state of perpetual torment, even more so, it would have had Angelus' artistic touch as Angel would have been his own prison keeper.

Ultimately, I think it is pretty obvious that the writers were just winging it when it came to Angel's curse, if we are looking for canon explanations, I think an argument can be made for Angel not trusting himself without the clause. Him being a vampire would always be an issue, but how much easier would his life with Buffy had been if the curse was not an issue? How much happier would it have been? He and Buffy wake up the morning after Surprise and they are just two people stupid in love. No heartbreak or trauma. Would he ever had gone on to fight for the PTB? Would he have left her? Would he have had reason to? Could he? after 3 years of a fully actualised life together. Especially if the Gem of Amara comes into play later on. In all of that, how much of Angel's time would consumed by his guilt and remorse? It never would have went away, but being in love and actually living a life filled with love would have surely pushed the ghosts further back than perhaps they should be.

It's the same thing with the Gem of Amara (and to a lesser extent IWRY) Angel doesn't trust himself with that kind of happiness. The pain and guilt are what motivates him, they are what reminds him why he has to fight.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Initially Angel wanted to be 'normal' again, but he had this nagging little voice deep within him that kept telling him to reject any possibilty of being normal.
What are the specifics of that nagging little voice?
It was his own I.D.,
his inner demon,
Angelus.

 

[rentheadperson]

The curse only ever makes sense if Angel knew about the clause, and known to avoid happiness at all costs. It would have imprisoned him in a state of perpetual torment, even more so, it would have had Angelus' artistic touch as Angel would have been his own prison keeper.

But maybe not. If Angel had known about the curse and was so tormented, knowing that there was an easier way, a way without the pain, might have had the opposite effect. He may have tried to go find a moment of perfect happiness so he wouldn't have to feel the pain anymore. Maybe not, since Angel (with a soul) doesn't want to hurt anyone, but there is that possibility. Basically, the gypsies did indeed shoot themselves in the foot with that curse, because as someone else here mentioned, just because he had one moment of happiness doesn't mean that he would have stopped suffering over the wrongs he had done in the past.

 

[white avenger]

And I also have to say that the gypsies' spell was pretty lame. Isn't this totally senseless? He receives perfect happiness... and gets his soul back?!
In my opinion the gypsies shot themselves in the foot properly.

I think that the curse, when it was initiated, was never intended to be any sort of long term punishment. Almost certainly, the gypsies knew that they wouldn't ever be able to kill Angelus outright. Too many far better people had tried and failed. Returning Angelus' soul was probably intended to overwhelm him with the sudden guilt of all of his past crimes and atrocities, leading him to either take a walk in the sunlight or stake himself just to make the pain go away. Pretty soon, however, it became obvious that, no matter how bad he might feel, no matter how much he might wish to atone for his wrongdoings, Angelus wasn't about to take his own life. Once they realized that, the gypsies had to come up with a Plan B, in this case, following Angel around and seeing to it that he never achieved the degree of happiness that would destroy the spell and release the monster once more.

As to why there was any such escape clause built into the spell in the first place, I think that that was probably due to the fact that the witch, wizard, or whoever cast the spell either didn't know of a more powerful, as in, permanent, spell to use, or, if they did know of one, they weren't powerful enough to invoke it. That would seem to be supported by the fact that Spike had to go to demons to get his soul restored rather than some human wizard or sorcerer .

 

[ladydorotea]

Returning Angelus' soul was probably intended to overwhelm him with the sudden guilt of all of his past crimes and atrocities, leading him to either take a walk in the sunlight or stake himself just to make the pain go away. Pretty soon, however, it became obvious that, no matter how bad he might feel, no matter how much he might wish to atone for his wrongdoings, Angelus wasn't about to take his own life.

IMHO, killing souled Angel would not have been that difficult - he was an easy enough target at any time, and especially during his rat-feeding stunts. Likely they never wanted him to die, because death was an easy way out.

Once they realized that, the gypsies had to come up with a Plan B, in this case, following Angel around and seeing to it that he never achieved the degree of happiness that would destroy the spell and release the monster once more.

That does not sounds right either, since I think it is implied that somebody was keeping an eye on Angel in his souled state all that time out of fear of repercussions from him - if he ever got 'free'. Which was really a big risk, considering what Angelus was capable of if set free -- but the Kalderash were willing to take it for the sake of continuous vengeance session.

As to why there was any such escape clause built into the spell in the first place, I think that that was probably due to the fact that the witch, wizard, or whoever cast the spell either didn't know of a more powerful, as in, permanent, spell to use, or, if they did know of one, they weren't powerful enough to invoke it. That would seem to be supported by the fact that Spike had to go to demons to get his soul restored rather than some human wizard or sorcerer .

No need to get complicated here - it was right in the text. The happiness clause was built in to ensure that having a soul will never lead to the tormented party actually getting any benefit out of it, because a soul also means ability to love, and a possibility of being loved back - thus to sharing a true connection with a human. Of course whoever crafted the curse did not want to have 'that' to happen.

As for Spike's soul-gettiing, it makes sense for a demonic sorcerer to look at a human soul as a sort of contamination and filth that pollutes 'pure' demonic essence. (Re Darla's view of it. ) Thus a demon sorcerer would feel that bestowing a soul on a vampire is a cruel joke and punishment in itself -- because it turns pure and powerful demon into filthy-soul-possessing abomination. So, the demon had no problem giving a soul without strings attached - from his perspective it has no value and no potential to be anything but a curse.

 

[white avenger]

As for Spike's soul-gettiing, it makes sense for a demonic sorcerer to look at a human soul as a sort of contamination and filth that pollutes 'pure' demonic essence. (Re Darla's view of it. ) Thus a demon sorcerer would feel that bestowing a soul on a vampire is a cruel joke and punishment in itself -- because it turns pure and powerful demon into filthy-soul-possessing abomination. So, the demon had no problem giving a soul without strings attached - from his perspective it has no value and no potential to be anything but a curse.

As for all of the details about Angel and his soul, you're as free to speculate and theorize on the why's and wherefore's as I or anybody else is. As for Spike's soul, however, regardless of what Darla or any other vampire or demon might think of the soul in general, the cave demon gave Spike his soul back as a reward for surviving his trials. It was the reward that he asked for, the prize that he fought for, and the award that he received for winning. There was no curse involved there, and that was established within the story line, no speculation or theories involved.

 

[ladydorotea]

As for all of the details about Angel and his soul, you're as free to speculate and theorize on the why's and wherefore's as I or anybody else is. As for Spike's soul, however, regardless of what Darla or any other vampire or demon might think of the soul in general, the cave demon gave Spike his soul back as a reward for surviving his trials. It was the reward that he asked for, the prize that he fought for, and the award that he received for winning. There was no curse involved there, and that was established within the story line, no speculation or theories involved.

I was not arguing whether soul was a reward from Spike's PoV or not. I don't really care, to be honest how Spike saw it -- I was merely pointing out that the demon sorcerer being a soulless being himself -- and taking into account that in Buffyverse unlike in AtS the demons were 99% evil (Clem being the only neutral exception) a demon bestowing a human soul on *another demon* would likely see the act as a cruel joke, not as a reward. Of course, if you want to argue that that demon dude was a special snowflake of a demon who enjoyed doing good deeds with his magical power you might continue thinking so.

 

[white avenger]

Of course, if you want to argue that that demon dude was a special snowflake of a demon who enjoyed doing good deeds with his magical power you might continue thinking so.

Not in the least. I personally think that the cave demon was a totally amoral being who achieved his satisfaction from seeing others fight to the death for whatever reward they saw fit. But, as amoral as he might be, he was still ethical to the extent that he was willing to pay a fair price for his entertainment. Spike wanted a soul, he was willing to fight, kill, and possibly die in the attaining of his prize. The cave demon was willing to pay a fair price to be entertained by watching him do so. Almost certainly, it wasn't the first time, nor would it be the last, when someone, demon, vampire, or probably even human, was willing to risk everything for some special prize, and as long as he gave fair price for fair achievements, his entertainment kept coming.

The cave demon was a simple voyeur, who was willing to pay for his entertainment. No more, no less.