Angel's Soul

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

Regardless of the demon's in question 'code of ethics' , he had no reason to bestow a soul with a happiness clause - he was asked to 'make me as I was' so he either treated it as a straightforward request or as a twisted monkey-paw-style riddle that can be turned upon the subject. We as audience were left with ambiguity and I have no interest to debate this particular point here. By the way, it might very well be that inserting a magical clause actually makes the spell 'more difficult' to perform, because it has to be an active one - continuously monitoring the subject, whereas just slapping a soul on someone with no strings attached is a one time deed.

Btw, Angel's curse was likely effectively preventing him from trying to get a soul permanently - because in order to get it 'in' it has to be 'out' in the ether -and available. Removing the happiness clause without removing the soul first was likely an even more complicated spell than the curse itself. So, effectively Angel would have had to risk getting soulless then relying on the demon to actually keep its word to Angel -- to Angelus, who would have likely be very tough guy to subdue and force the soul back into. Heck, the logistics are a mess here. One need to travel to Africa with a steel cage and a shaman, fight for the soul, then make sure that the demon would keep its word and not renege -- and what % of loosing the soul forever would be worth it ? 30% ? 50% ? Would Angel risk this -- for the sake of his own happiness? Does refusing the risk makes him a coward? The Fang Gang was able to convince him to go on with it when the stakes were preventing the Apocalypses - to get rid of the Beast.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

That whole gypsy curse thing seems completely stupid theme to me.
A poorly thought out and poorly executed storyline by people who didn't understand what they were writing.
As I understand it, the curse was to cause Angelus to have a soul, to stop him from ever finding true happiness.
So, Angelus is cursed never to find true happiness because of his killing the girl.
So he becomes Angel, but he does find true happiness and reverts back to his old ways of happily killing people. To me that indicates that the curse was crap.
In the series the gypsies were unhappy that Angel might find happiness. (they sent Jenny to stop him finding true happiness).
And to me that only means that the gypsies saw the curse as being crap. That the curse wasn't good enough.

A curse stops a person from doing what the curse is in place for. And if the curse was to stop him from ever finding true happiness, it should never have happened, end of story.
Now if the gypsies had intelligence of any kind, the curse should have been to cause Angelus to be a baldy, and that his teeth should fall out.

Hmm, I wonder if Buffy could have fallen in love with a toothless baldy? Imagine what Spike would have said?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

For me, there are two reasons.

-I think the truth is that Angel wanted the curse. Not to say that he didn't want to be happy and enjoy a life with Buffy, (and later Cordy and maybe Nina), but I think his guilt prevented him from truly believing that he should lead a life free from the shackles of what he'd done in the past--and he continues to let the curse prevent him from doing so. Angel resists feeling comfort and pleasure so much so that the renunciation of such things is ultimately more important than being in a loving relationship in which he can do "normal" things. (By the way, this is why I think his actions in season 8 are so completely out of character, and honestly if he was one of my favorite characters I would have absolutely freaked out as a result of those developments.)
The way I see it, at the end of the day, Angel doesn't feel he is entitled to anything more than a life of defending the world from its monsters, trying to repent for what he did. If the curse was lifted, the doors to a different kind of existence would open for him. And maybe he feels that's too easy.

-The simple fact that, as was mentioned earlier, in order to have the soul put in, say in Africa--no strings attached--it would have to be out to begin with. That would mean that he'd be soulless when he requested it, and we all know that'd never happen. 😀 Maybe there really isn't another way? I'd like to think someone would have brought it up if it were at all possible. All of the other seemingly outlandish things they try on the shows are always mentioned as possibilities even while they are simultaneously dismissed, only to be attempted later. That never happened here--probably because the writers don't want to make it too "easy!"

 

[Black Eye Guy]

As for all of the details about Angel and his soul, you're as free to speculate and theorize on the why's and wherefore's as I or anybody else is. As for Spike's soul, however, regardless of what Darla or any other vampire or demon might think of the soul in general, the cave demon gave Spike his soul back as a reward for surviving his trials. It was the reward that he asked for, the prize that he fought for, and the award that he received for winning. There was no curse involved there, and that was established within the story line, no speculation or theories involved.

I disagree, there is definitely room for speculation. I've said it a few times but I've always believed the demon that restored Spikes soul was some kind of vengeance demon.

Dehoffern mentions him in Season 7, He tells Willow her flaying of Warren was Water cooler vengeance, and Lloyd has painting of it on his wall, which the demon that restores Spikes soul does.
Even the language that Spike was using, like how "The bitch (Buffy) was gonna get what she deserves"

I don't see it as a reward, I think it's kinda weird the demon sits in a cave waiting to reward other demons, but restoring a soul for vengeance after the vampire earns it seems like a much more plausible and set up in the cannon answer.


For Angel, I think the fact that the Gypsy's cursed him rather then cast a spell on him, is what set up the happiness clause. In any fairytales I can think of where a curse is involved there is always an escape clause (true loves first kiss, etc.) so I think Angels curse was similar to that.

As for why Willow didn't try and change the spell in Season 4 of Angel, I have no clue, I'd like to think she would if she hadn't been busy with what was going on in Sunnydale (season 2 willow I understand as she didn't know anything)

Why she never restored Spikes soul is another question.

I think the curse is actually not as stupid as people make it out to be.

The curse was placed on Angelus, he lost control and Angel takes over, Angelus has to experience it all, same way Angel experiences Angelus's actions. Angelus and Angel are a split personality of the same person, the gypsy's clearly don't think of them as separate as they don't mind Angel feeling guilty for Angelus's actions, but if it got to a point where Angel no longer felt guilty for Angelus's action, where he was happy, there is no need for the curse, so it's removed and Angelus is free'd and Angel then has to suffer as he loses control, Angelus has to deal with experiencing everything Angel did, and Angel has to suffer as he goes back to experiencing it all again with no control - the curse basically means Angel/Angelus is in a constant state of suffering, but just different sides of him.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Sorry, I just couldn't let that one slip passed.

"There is always an escape clause (true loves first kiss etc.) so I think Angel's curse was similar to that."
Bearing in mind that this is a family friendly board, would you care to elaorate?

PS its D'Hoffryn
and er, go Drogyn !!

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Sorry, I just couldn't let that one slip passed.

"There is always an escape clause (true loves first kiss etc.) so I think Angel's curse was similar to that."
Bearing in mind that this is a family friendly board, would you care to elaorate?

PS its D'Hoffryn
and er, go Drogyn !!

Like other curses in other movies/tv/films, there is a way to break it.

Sleeping Beauty wakes up when she finds true love and is kissed - that kinda thing.