Angelus And Angel

[white avenger]

I don't suppose there's any real, positive, answer to this, but, in your individual opinion, do you see Angelus and Angel as two persona of a single character, something like Jeckel/Hyde or Lawrence Talbot/Wolf Man (the Chaney version, not the crappy remake) or do you think of them as two separate characters altogether? Or, as a third choice, would you consider Angel not a person at all, but simply a sort of metaphysical container, restraint, or prison, whose sole purpose is to contain, restrain, and punish the monster, Angelus (what brought that particular idea to mind was what Angelus told Faith in their shared dream sequence about being tortured by the things that Angel did, like rescuing the puppy and helping the helpless)

As I said, no single right answer, just what you perceive the character(s) to be.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The latter; Angel is not a 'person'

Liam was the person, Angelus was the demon and Angel was just the curse.

Though in the first seasons there was no distinction between 'angelus and angel' the watcher book Giles read from called killer vampire Angel and not Angelus, so it depends on if you are talking the original version of Angel or the revised version.

 

[Mumrik]

To me, they're two aspects of the same persona. I can easily see Angel being as cruel as Angelus, given the "right" circumstances. Now that I think about it, I see them as a sort of Bruce Banner/The Hulk, if The Hulk kept Bruce's intellect, with Angelus being Bruce Banner, as Angel only exists due to a certain trigger, much like The Hulk. If that makes any sense.

 

[Wesley]

My conclusion that I've drawn from watching all these arguments is that Angel is a split personality of Angelus. Angelus the person was so racked with guilt after being cursed with his soul that the only way his psyche could deal with the trauma was to have a psychotic break and create two distinct personas.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Angelus the person was so racked with guilt after being cursed with his soul that the only way his psyche could deal with the trauma was to have a psychotic break and create two distinct personas.

I could see that if it wasnt forced upon him. If that happened naturally I think you would have a point. But what you describe never actually happened. It was ripped in two by outside forces.

 

[VisionGirl]

I think that Joss intended for it to be the 3rd option (Angel is the container, the gypsies intended that and caused that). However, clearly Buffy sees them as 2 separate people.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I see them as two completly different persons sharing one body.

 

[Taake]

To me, they're two aspects of the same persona. I can easily see Angel being as cruel as Angelus, given the "right" circumstances. Now that I think about it, I see them as a sort of Bruce Banner/The Hulk, if The Hulk kept Bruce's intellect, with Angelus being Bruce Banner, as Angel only exists due to a certain trigger, much like The Hulk. If that makes any sense.

It makes sense to me and I agree.

I see Angel as a byproduct of the curse (technically he's the Hulk in then ;P).

Like Scobro said, Liam was the person, Angelus the demon and then there's Angel who is a mixture of them both.I never viewed them as completely different people because Angel still has Angelus in the back of his head and vice versa (Angelus couldn't just shake the good deeds Angel had done)

 

[StarSlayer]

For me, I think Wesley (from the show, lol) said it best. "We know you're a man with a demon inside. Not the other way around." I see Angelus as the demon taking over the human side of Angel, mainly when he has no soul. On the flip side, I see Angel as the human controlling his demon side when he has a soul. Of course, the demon tries to overpower Angel when he has a soul, but he still has the ability to conquer it because of his soul.

 

[BibliophileAnn]

I always saw them as two separate and distinct characters because they feel and act differently and are so opposite. Angel loves and Angelus hates. It would get kind of confusing I think if both were called Angel. You know darn well in the period when Angelus was roaming free if Angel had still been around and someone else was doing this to Buffy and her friends Angel would have made them stop.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I always saw it as Angelus was the demon that replaced Liam, or the demon side of Liam.

Then Angel was the demon Angelus with Liams soul, so I think they are 2 separate parts of the one person, but they are 2 completely separate personalities.

 

[VisionGirl]

I always saw it as Angelus was the demon that replaced Liam, or the demon side of Liam.

Then Angel was the demon Angelus with Liams soul, so I think they are 2 separate parts of the one person, but they are 2 completely separate personalities.

Good way to put this.

It's so interesting to compare Liam/Angel with and without a soul and Spike with and without a soul. Angel is more like 2 completely different persons, whereas Spike is not. Spike is more of an "evolution". Weird that Joss chose to display 2 ensouled vampires so differently. But that goes to the question of the nature of vampires in general in the Buffyverse, and I'm going to formulate a question about that on another board.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But Liam was closer to Angelus than Angel was... Liam was running around playing Deuce Bigelow with all the ladies and fighting with the fellas; Liam was Angelus with a soul. Angel is the anomaly.

 

[Wesley]

I don't think you can take Liam and extrapolate like that. Remember he was in his early 20's, after maturing more he may be more similar to Angel then you think.

 

[VisionGirl]

Or not, but it's certainly not the same thing as a single-minded, evil, maniacal, killing machine.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But Liam was closer to Angelus than Angel was... Liam was running around playing Deuce Bigelow with all the ladies and fighting with the fellas; Liam was Angelus with a soul. Angel is the anomaly.

I definitely dont think so, Liam was a drunk messing around. Then became Angelus and was actually bad, and then got his soul back and got a bit of a mental kick because of all the things he had done.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Then became Angelus and was actually bad

He was only "bad" because he had power and no soul or remorse. If Liam had no remorse and vampire strength he would have been just like Angelus (save the fact he wouldnt have to drain peoples blood to live) when he got the soul he got remorse about what he WAS (a monster) not what he did. He was 'bad' man before becoming a vampire; the vampire just perfected it.

 

[Flannen]

He was only "bad" because he had power and no soul or remorse. If Liam had no remorse and vampire strength he would have been just like Angelus (save the fact he wouldnt have to drain peoples blood to live) when he got the soul he got remorse about what he WAS (a monster) not what he did. He was 'bad' man before becoming a vampire; the vampire just perfected it.

I don't think there's really enough to support this. I've seen this argument a lot, or ones similar to it, that Liam was some kind of horrible man. When really we see a couple of instances where's he's being drunk and going after women and starting fights and only his father's opinion of him. But let's not forget the type of man Liam's father was: deeply religious and seemingly annoyed because his son wasn't or had no interest in doing what was expected of him.

I've never seen Liam as a 'bad' man because of the few flashbacks we saw of him, rather I saw a son acting out because of his father's treatment of him; pretty textbook really.

And the Liam we see in Spin the Bottle is not the same one we see in the flashbacks of him being sired etc.

 

[GrrArghx]

I'm with ScoBro.

Person (Shell, even) = Liam
Demon = Angelus
Soul = Angel

 

[StarSlayer]

Maybe I haven't gotten to those episodes in AtS (I'm beginning s3), but it's hard for me at this point to separate Liam and Angel. I think Angel is really Liam, just more mature, grown-up, and responsible.