Angelus and Spike: Why the Difference?

[Wishing Oceans]

Here we go again. 😀 Why is Angelus so different from soulless Spike? Even a hundred years back, before Buffy was ever in the picture, Spike was always more humane than Angelus, to an extent.

I've always [well, since two days ago 😀] thought that it was because when Angelus [Liam] was human, he was a rebellious drunkard thief, to say it plainly. :whistle: But when Spike [William] was human, he was nothing short of a sensitive gentleman. So, when they lost their souls, they may have kept their main personality, yet lost the ability to know the difference of right and wrong. As said by Joss in the commentary for Chosen, in Seeing Red Spike did not understand the line between right and wrong; he was soulless. But I don't think that losing a soul changes your personality, that would be a bit far- fetched. So basically, it's my hypothesis that Angelus is more evil than Spike because Spike kept his basic view on the way to act and his basic personality traits, yet since Angelus was NOT a good person in his human years, when he no longer had of view of what's right and wrong the more extensive version if Liam ended up with a much worse vampire personality, since neither his vampire- self nor his human self had proper morals. Did that make any sense? 😀

Thoughts?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Here we go again. 😀 Why is Angelus so different from soulless Spike? Even a hundred years back, before Buffy was ever in the picture, Spike was always more humane than Angelus, to an extent.

I've always [well, since two days ago 😀] thought that it was because when Angelus [Liam] was human, he was a rebellious drunkard thief, to say it plainly. :whistle: But when Spike [William] was human, he was nothing short of a sensitive gentleman. So, when they lost their souls, they may have kept their main personality, yet lost the ability to know the difference of right and wrong. As said by Joss in the commentary for Chosen, in Seeing Red Spike did not understand the line between right and wrong; he was soulless. But I don't think that losing a soul changes your personality, that would be a bit far- fetched. So basically, it's my hypothesis that Angelus is more evil than Spike because Spike kept his basic view on the way to act and his basic personality traits, yet since Angelus was NOT a good person in his human years, when he no longer had of view of what's right and wrong the more extensive version if Liam ended up with a much worse vampire personality, since neither his vampire- self nor his human self had proper morals. Did that make any sense? 😀

Thoughts?

I think your theory is a great one, and is definitely part of the reason why the two vampires are so different.

My only answer for this is that Spike has just always been "different." What makes him interesting, why we could become invested in him as a character, was because he was a soulless vampire with human tendencies and motivations therefore an anomaly in the mythology of the 'verse.

Why? There's a few theories, one being what you've mentioned. For some reason, when Spike was turned, he retained a lot of his human personality traits. Basically, pre-soul Spike is William without conscience or inhibitions. Vampires are perhaps like people, in that they all take to being "vampified" differently. As an example, when Xander's friend Jesse was turned, he didn't seem to be the same person at all, yet Vampire Harmony is almost a mirror-image of her human self (well, this could be a result of her non-complicated, vacuous personailty, I guess.) Think of it like that.

Personally, I think it has a lot to do with plot, honestly. The reason why our two vampires are well, not just mindless, drooling vamps like all the others Buff stakes on a regular basis is because well, they'd be boring if they were! I think the whole scene in 'Seeing Red' when Spike attempts to rape Buffy was an attempt to show us that Spike was still a dangerous vampire... just as was the death of Jenny by Angelus' hand. These two events were there to remind us that they were still demons (the "bad guy") in case we had forgotten. This was of course the fault of the writers, as they kept attributing "human" characteristics to both, in an attempt I'm sure, to solicit sympathy from the audience.

And of course, Angelus was also portrayed in the show as "different" - Giles said that he was the worst and most cruel vampire in history.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I think your theory is a great one, and is definitely part of the reason why the two vampires are so different.

My only answer for this is that Spike has just always been "different." What makes him interesting, why we could become invested in him as a character, was because he was a soulless vampire with human tendencies and motivations therefore an anomaly in the mythology of the 'verse.

Why? There's a few theories, one being what you've mentioned. For some reason, when Spike was turned, he retained a lot of his human personality traits. Basically, pre-soul Spike is William without conscience or inhibitions. Vampires are perhaps like people, in that they all take to being "vampified" differently. As an example, when Xander's friend Jesse was turned, he didn't seem to be the same person at all, yet Vampire Harmony is almost a mirror-image of her human self (well, this could be a result of her non-complicated, vacuous personailty, I guess.) Think of it like that.

Personally, I think it has a lot to do with plot, honestly. The reason why our two vampires are well, not just mindless, drooling vamps like all the others Buff stakes on a regular basis is because well, they'd be boring if they were! I think the whole scene in 'Seeing Red' when Spike attempts to rape Buffy was an attempt to show us that Spike was still a dangerous vampire... just as was the death of Jenny by Angelus' hand. These two events were there to remind us that they were still demons (the "bad guy") in case we had forgotten. This was of course the fault of the writers, as they kept attributing "human" characteristics to both, in an attempt I'm sure, to solicit sympathy from the audience.

And of course, Angelus was also portrayed in the show as "different" - Giles said that he was the worst and most cruel vampire in history.

Also, it most likely has to do with your bloodline. Like your family, the more evil and 'great' your bloodline is, the stronger and more talented the vampire is, which is probably why the Fanged Four, being related to the Master and such, were always so much stronger and simply better vampires then the average fly by vamp. And great points, Joan! 😀

 

[Kana]

As I said before it's a lot more complicated.

I was watching and reviewing Spin the Bottle and to me Liam didn't start off as the jerk that many make him out to be. Liam was actually an ok kid with an overbearing father who always seemed to find fault in him. He felt the need to rebel against his father's hypocrisy and in the end became a self-fulfilling prophecy but he wasn't inherently a bad person.

Also lets look at some other vampires. The Gorches and Kralik. They were killers in their human life but as vampires they didn't reach the notoriety of Angelus, who in his human years wasn't sociopathic nor homocidal.

Also the above theory doesn't explain how Angel is also a relatively noble person. Perfect? No but he tries and takes views on morality very seriously.

I actually believe Angel is fragmented persona and I'm not just talking about his human and demon sides. He both internalized and rejected his father's influence. As Angelus he was free to fight against the morality his father attempted to instill upon him as Angel part of him embraced it. Part of this lead to his self-loathing and the classic brooding. As far as he's concerned it's not just the demon who needs killing...

I don't believe Spike had the same internal pressures. Good and evil were not strong dividing lines in his mind, but love and the honour that can come from that love was. Unlike Angelus, he had no yen to overcome his feelings, he's always enjoyed embracing them, whereas Angelus attempted to suppress any loving feelings he had, so that it didn't 'taint' his evil, which he regarded so fondly.

Both had morals when they were human, both of them didn't have consciences when they became vampires but the strong emotions inside them carried over and drove them to do what they did.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Here's what I think.

Yeah when Angel was Liam, a human he was a bad bad man, who cared only about girls and alcohol. But he had no excuse to be like that. He had loving family, parents and sister, but yet he was the way he was. Spike as William was romantic soul, a poet. He had a tight bond with his mother, but Liam didn't, but he did loved his sister. When Liam became Angelus he had an excuse to be a bad man, he was a demon. Spike tryed to be bad, but in the end of the day he always had someone he loved, Drusilla back then. When Angelus got his soul back he saw how bad he was, as a man and as a demon. And then he saw Buffy, she gave him the strenght to be a better man. Just one girl, and because of her he became Angel. I think there is a reason why he got his soul back, why he lived so long. There was someone he was waiting for him and their love was in making for 244 years 😀 and then Angelus came back, demon ho became so strong, the bad part of Angel.. but I think his biggest problem was his feelings. He couldn't stop loving Buffy. Spike loved her without a soul, but I think that was because he was never such a big monster he didn't hated himself.

 

[Flannen]

I just had a thought about this mainly, regarding the nature of Angelus. As someone pointed out Giles said that Angelus was one of, if not THE cruellest vampire ever. And then I read the comments about Angel when he was still Liam and the life he led, in which I agree with the people who say that Liam, unfortunately, became a self-fulfilling prophecy and that he was actually a bad man, he was just completely thwarted at every turn but an overbearing father.

Which in turn led me to think about the flashbacks (the episode escapes me) to when Angelus/Liam returns home and kills his father. I can't remember if it's said outright or if its something I inferred myself, but Liam was repeatedly told, or made to feel like, he would never amount to anything and considering he had accepted this fate it was probably very true.

Anyway, I think this is why Angelus was a cruel as he was. In the vampire world he could make something of himself, he could become someone who was remembered, feared and admired and he could finally prove something, not to his family, but to himself. I think that has something to do with why he became the monster that he was.

AND, (this one has just come to me) Angel when he regains his soul, must in some essence retain something of Liam, as this is his humanity. And if Liam was really as 'evil/bad' as he seems to be thought of, he wouldn't exactly spend a century brooding over his past sins would he?

As for the difference? Well, I think it's been overlooked that Spike wasn't exactly the friendliest vamp around was he? He might not have been explored as thoroughly as Angel/us was but he was still a monster. He didn't write poetry when he was a vampire (or did he?!). Sure he developed 'human' tendencies towards the end before he got soul, but I do firmly believe this is to do with the chip. Spike would never have got to where he is now without being chipped because he would not have been placed in a situation where he had to be something other than a vicious killer. It is not really until this point that those human tendencies arise. Sure he loved Drusilla which made the Judge regard him as having humanity, but Darla loved Angelus and Angelus had some kind of feeling in return, and those other two (names escape me again) were also in love as vampires, so it's not individual to Spike to have experienced human emotion such as love and jealousy as a vampire.

 

[Flannen]

ubi4soft disagrees: Spike showed human tendencies before the chip (love, honor, loyalty)

Yes, I acknowledged that. My point isn't that he didn't have them at all pre-chip but he wasn't 'human-like' until he had been chipped and that these human tendencies weren't just individual to Spike so it doesn't make him special in any way.

And I'd argue the only one he really shows is love. There's nothing honourable in betraying your 'crew' and running to the Slayer is there? There's no loyalty in that either.

 

[ubi4soft]

Love - towards his mother and Drusilla;
Honor - keeping his word ex. turning Ford into a vampire because that was the deal, he could just left him dead;
Loyalty - towards Drusilla trying to cure her (coming to the Hellmouth) and stopping the attack in "lie to me" when Buffy threaten to stake her.

these are all examples before the chip and before the deal with the slayer in becoming 2.

 

[Willow-Tree]

Love - towards his mother and Drusilla;
Honor - keeping his word ex. turning Ford into a vampire because that was the deal, he could just left him dead;
Loyalty - towards Drusilla trying to cure her (coming to the Hellmouth) and stopping the attack in "lie to me" when Buffy threaten to stake her.

these are all examples before the chip and before the deal with the slayer in becoming 2.

'

As much as I love Spike... you are way off.

Yes, he did love both Drusilla and his mother, but he also knew his mother a lot longer before he was vamped.

He didn't turn Ford into a vampire... Buffy convinced him not to live his life that way.

And the thing you chose for "Loyalty" goes better with love. Also, how is stopping a fight loyal? The only reason he stopped it is so he wouldn't get staked.

 

[ubi4soft]

Yes, he did love both Drusilla and his mother, but he also knew his mother a lot longer before he was vamped.

Huh??? And to contrary Angelus didn't know at all his father before he was vamped ?? I don't understand what are you saying.

He didn't turn Ford into a vampire... Buffy convinced him not to live his life that way.

Yes, he did, check again please Buffy and all others humans left that club and only Ford remained. He even remembered Spike that he "delivered" the slayer and now he was expecting Spike to keep his part of the deal.

And the thing you chose for "Loyalty" goes better with love.

Darla obviously loved Angelus but she ditched him when found out about the soul and that he was feeding only on burglars/evil people. Angelus told Holtz about Darla whereabouts.

Spike took care of Drusilla when she was ill and tried/succeeded to cure her

Also, how is stopping a fight loyal? The only reason he stopped it is so he wouldn't get staked.

Buffy was threatening Drusilla (there are promos for this), Spike ordered the rest of the vamps to stop feeding from victims and aloud people to get out from the bar. Then Buffy drops Drusilla in Spikes arms and runs away.

But I have no doubt about Soulless Spike being evil.

 

[Kana]

Well yes, soullessSpike is certainly no Angelus. I think Joss described the whole soul/no soul distinction as kind of a spectrum. Spike seems more loyal to the people he loves and how he treats Dru is a telling comparison to Angelus who as Ubi4soft says gave up Darla without a thought.

The problem with Spike is that although he is certainly more violent than the average vampire alot of his evil is all too human. He shows signs of jealousy momentary anger etc. He also doesn't think about the nature of evil in the same way other demons do especially Angelus:

Spike: For a demon, I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. I never did look back at the victims.

Angel: I couldn't take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would've considered Dana a masterpiece.

While Spike certainly appears to be a more confusing case than Angel(us) arguing moral superiority with soulless vampires can become tricky. SoullessSpike didn't have any moral reservations about anything Angelus did, so aside from his greater capacity for emotional sensitivity, we find it difficult to say that Spike is a saint without a soul.

 

[Flannen]

thevikingsgirl disagrees: In the episode with the Judge in season 2, the Judge wants to kill Spike & Dru at first, because they have humanity in them. way pre-chip.

Yeah, I did also point this out in my post. 🙂 That the Judge did say they had 'humanity' in them because they expressed love for each other. The point I was kinda making in regards to soulless Spike is that he wasn't the only vampire who demonstrated these tendencies which to me doesn't make the argument that he had human tendencies stand out as much, pre-soul. I guess I didn't make that very clear, which is my fault.

Love - towards his mother and Drusilla;
Honor - keeping his word ex. turning Ford into a vampire because that was the deal, he could just left him dead;
Loyalty - towards Drusilla trying to cure her (coming to the Hellmouth) and stopping the attack in "lie to me" when Buffy threaten to stake her.

I agreed on the love front, but my point was that he isn't the only vampire to have expressed feelings of love so that doesn't make him stand out too much.

I see what you mean with the honour thing but I don't necessarily see it as that great an argument considering it was keeping his honour to kill someone. I was more looking for something to show his honour towards his 'crew'.

And the loyalty things, like Willow-Tree cross over too much with love where they consider Drusilla. He would be loyal to her because he loved her, again I was more interested in his loyalty towards his cronies.