Angelus plot hole?

[thunderhawk86]

After rewatching the series I think there might be a plot whole with the team needing to remove Angel's soul. Unless I'm wrong the drug Rebecca used turned Angel into Angelus. If he really turned then he would have all of his memories without needing to remove the soul. So isn't it a plot hole that they could have used drugs that would wear off instead of desouling him? Or do the drugs only make Angel think he's Angelus and wouldn't regain memories of the beast?

 

[The Unspoken]

To quote a great - albeit not always lucid - woman: 'Crack is whack.'

 

[Lyri]

I think the plot hole is actually with the drugs, not with the team removing his soul.

Back in S2 of BtVS, there was a huge deal made about the 'one moment of perfect happiness' that was needed to break the curse, and it's been proven twice that Angel's 'one moment of perfect happiness' is Buffy. (If you listen REALLY carefully during the sex scene with Cordelia during his hallucination, he whispers 'Buffy' when he comes.)

Yet in S1 on AtS, he's given a happy pill and POOF! No more soul.

Yet his soul returns when the effects of the drugs wear off, essentially, when his happy disappears.

If that was the case, then shouldn't his soul have returned when the after-glow of the sex wore off? Obviously not, 'cause that would ruin the whole story of both shows, lol.

Many believe that the drug was only a temporary thing because the effects of happiness Angel was enjoying weren't real, they were synthetic, so therefore he was only under the effects of losing his soul.

We have no idea if this would have been enough for him to remember his encounters with The Beast, as those memories were removed by magic and only Angelus retained them, as he wasn't on this plane when the spell was cast. As this wasn't really Angelus and only a drug-induced high, I don't think he would have known.

 

[white avenger]

I think that the entire premise of the curse is, if you look at it, ridiculous. The Gypsies wanted to punish Angelus, so they gave him a soul, coupled with a conscience so that he could feel guilt for the crimes and atrocities that he had been committing for the past century. That's fine, and totally understandable. But why would they build such an escape clause into the spell? I could agree with a part of the curse making him unable to ever feel true happiness again. If they had made it something like the curse of Tantalus, where every time Angel was to a point of feeling any sort of happiness, something would snatch it away, leaving him even more tortured than before. The way that they set their curse up, there was a possibility of escape by Angelus from the guilt of Angel's soul.

The most cruel, diabolical part of the curse in the happiness clause, and they never even bothered to tell him about it.

 

[The Unspoken]

I think that the entire premise of the curse is, if you look at it, ridiculous. The Gypsies wanted to punish Angelus, so they gave him a soul, coupled with a conscience so that he could feel guilt for the crimes and atrocities that he had been committing for the past century. That's fine, and totally understandable. But why would they build such an escape clause into the spell? I could agree with a part of the curse making him unable to ever feel true happiness again. If they had made it something like the curse of Tantalus, where every time Angel was to a point of feeling any sort of happiness, something would snatch it away, leaving him even more tortured than before. The way that they set their curse up, there was a possibility of escape by Angelus from the guilt of Angel's soul.

The most cruel, diabolical part of the curse in the happiness clause, and they never even bothered to tell him about it.

If they had told him, he would prevent himself from experiencing happiness, meaning Angelus would never break free and Angel wouldn't experience the corresponding guilt once his soul would be restored.

Which begs the question: how and why would Angel's soul be restored after he experienced true happiness? Jenny was sent to watch Angel, which implies he would be re-ensouled eventually, to make him suffer for all the crimes he committed while he was Angelus. (Though come to think of it, Jenny says something about those magicks being lost to even her people. Oh well...)

Also, magic is not an exact science. The happiness clause might've simply been a result of how pissed off those gypsies were.

In conclusion: don't mess with gypsies. EVER.

 

[Lyri]

Another think about the curse that I don't understand is Connor.

No, wait, hear me out, lol.

This was Angel's child, the son he never thought he could have, the son he never even let himself dream of having, and suddenly he's got him, his flesh and blood and his legacy will now live on forever.

Why wasn't THAT perfect happiness?

 

[Kean]

Another think about the curse that I don't understand is Connor.

No, wait, hear me out, lol.

This was Angel's child, the son he never thought he could have, the son he never even let himself dream of having, and suddenly he's got him, his flesh and blood and his legacy will now live on forever.

Why wasn't THAT perfect happiness?

Cuz he was being chased by cults when he was born? Because Darla staked herself for him to live? But mostly because I think he was terrified out of his mind. Much like all first parents LOL

 

[Lyri]

Yeah, but I know how happy my parents were when I was born after they were told they couldn't have kids. Scared or not, they were still over the moon with happiness.

 

[The Unspoken]

Cuz he was being chased by cults when he was born? Because Darla staked herself for him to live? But mostly because I think he was terrified out of his mind. Much like all first parents LOL

Wasn't the Judge, said to bring about the end the world, about to be constructed when he last experienced true happiness? Also, Darla staking herself might not be so bad, considering the alternative - reverting to her usual vampiric self once she gave birth.

 

[Kean]

Wasn't the Judge, said to bring about the end the world, about to be constructed when he last experienced true happiness? Also, Darla staking herself might not be so bad, considering the alternative - reverting to her usual vampiric self once she gave birth.

Yeah, but he and Buffy were also safe and snug in his apartment that night. Once they got there neither of them seemed to give the Judge much thought at all. If any.

There isn't a decent answer to this question but this is the one that makes most sense to me.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Back in S2 of BtVS, there was a huge deal made about the 'one moment of perfect happiness' that was needed to break the curse, and it's been proven twice that Angel's 'one moment of perfect happiness' is Buffy. (If you listen REALLY carefully during the sex scene with Cordelia during his hallucination, he whispers 'Buffy' when he comes.)

Why didn't Angel simply imagine himself sleeping with Buffy, instead of Cordelia during his dream sequence? Unless his moment of perfect happiness was having sex with a blending of both females?

 

[Kana]

Ok a lot of nummy goodness here, so let's get right to it.

As it's been said, it wasn't really Angelus in eternity but Angel with seriusly lacking in his inhibitions. Under Wes' theory, it was an illusion so perhaps he believed he wouldn't have the same access to the memories that Angelus would.

As for the happiness clause? There are several theories. On the point that WA said, I don't think the gypsies were that powerful to create curse that actually manipulates events that Angel would never actually acheives happiness, so they had to do the leg work themselves, or make Jenny do it. As her uncle said, they merely play there part but they are not wizards, maybe that's what he meant.

Also, maybe the loophole of the curse was an actually loophole. In other words it is as a result of the nature of the curse. Most curses can be broken and true happiness was the curse breaker. It differs from the magics used to restore Spike's soul as that was a reward not a curse. This means the curse is metaphysically incompatible with happiness. It's not certain whether they knew this from the start but perhaps they didn't count on a Slayer falling in love with him or more likely that he would never find peace with his existence. They still watched him though and when he fell for Buffy they got extra twitchy.

As for the Connor thing? I agree with what Kean said in another thread. Angel had never had a life that was completely dependent on him. Lorne actually said, he was tense ever since he was born, so much so that he didn't have a to sing for him to sense it. With Buffy he was able to relax, even if it was for a moment. It has nothing to do with how much he loved Connor or that he loved him less than Buffy (I mean, as if) but it was circumstanctial.

As for LadyLavinia's point about sleeping with Buffy, ITA. Regardless of whether he loved Buffy, he wanted to be with Cordy in that moment.

 

[Gotham]

Another think about the curse that I don't understand is Connor.

No, wait, hear me out, lol.

This was Angel's child, the son he never thought he could have, the son he never even let himself dream of having, and suddenly he's got him, his flesh and blood and his legacy will now live on forever.

Why wasn't THAT perfect happiness?

I think the issue is that he didn't know exactly what Connor was, for Vampires to have a child was unheard of, and I'd say the uncertainty of it all prevented him from experiencing perfect happiness. Then the strained relationship between the two later on was never going to give Angel that perfect moment either.