Angelus vs Holtz?

[bespangeled]

Here goes - another what if. Buffy gave Angel one minute of happiness and he lost his soul. Then a pill worked to do the soul job. Then came Darla, and he was willing to consider lawyers to be snacks food - and he still had his soul.

I think that the soul loved Connor as much as the demon does, and I think the demon should have taken over. After all, it's been allowed to push out more and more. Angelus would have ways to go after Holt - he wouldn't have given up.

Anyone agree it could have been a possibility? Would Angelus turn the others? Would the other be willing to work with Angelus unturned?

 

[janas]

I like to talk about Connor, so thanks for this thread. But ... hum, I don't know if I understand you correctly. I don't think that the demon loved Connor, their brief interaction in Season Four, suggests exactly the opposite.

You say that Angelus would not give up? Are you saying that Angel has done instead? Angel hasn't given up to Connor. To find him, Angel has gone much more over the allowed, he practiced black magic, tortured Linwood, made ​​Sahjhan corporeal, (a dangerous demon), he has gone into the White Room etc. Angel has done everything possible and the impossible to find Connor, do you think Angelus would have done the same? I doubt it.

The others would be willing to work with Angelus? In fact they did it. For find information on the Beast, they brought back Angelus, really stupid move, if you ask me... but yes, I think that they would be willing to work with Angelus

...but I'm sorry, maybe I didn't understand what you meant, so feel free to ignore my answer 🙂

Edit:
I was intrigued by title of the thread. I thought it was to see parallels between Angelus and Holtz, because there are so many.

 

[thetopher]

Here goes - another what if. Buffy gave Angel one minute of happiness and he lost his soul. Then a pill worked to do the soul job. Then came Darla, and he was willing to consider lawyers to be snacks food - and he still had his soul.

I think that the soul loved Connor as much as the demon does, and I think the demon should have taken over. After all, it's been allowed to push out more and more. Angelus would have ways to go after Holt - he wouldn't have given up.

Anyone agree it could have been a possibility? Would Angelus turn the others? Would the other be willing to work with Angelus unturned?

I'm really not sure what you're talking about. 😕

What makes you think that Angelus 'loved' Connor? Why would 'the others' work with Angelus? Could you please clarify?

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I beg your pardon but I can't understand what you are asking. Could you rephrase everything please?

I follow you on the first paragraph, I think. Basically, Angel has done bad things with a soul.

In the second paragraph, I think you're saying that you think souled Angel and Angelus both love Connor just as much(?), and that you think Angelus could/should have "taken over"(?). And then the second sentence I don't understand at all. Do you mean Angel's darker demon/Angelus side has been allowed to push out more and more? I can't agree with this really, he (Angelus) is either on or off, in control of Angel's body/mind utterly or completely NOT in control of Angel's body/mind. But I might be misunderstanding you(?).

I guess basically I think Angelus doesn't have any compassion for anything, so I don't see how he would put any effort at all into saving Connor, when he could just go create mayhem, be wicked, murder people...and maybe perhaps be a little more ambitious and try to end the world, etc. Save Connor, hmm well...sorry I just can't see it. And presuming he did go after Holtz and rescue Connor for who knows what end, what's he going to do? Connor isn't evil. Connor is many things when he is older: abused, mistrustful, bitter...but not evil. And before that, he's just a baby or a kid (literally snack food for Angelus). Definitely not evil again. So when Connor declines helping Angelus (like I said, presuming the dubious possibility that he would actually try to 'save' Connor) Angelus either tries to kill him or he turns him.

And what does this entire paragraph mean?

Anyone agree it could have been a possibility? Would Angelus turn the others? Would the other be willing to work with Angelus unturned?

turn the others? The Angel investigations team? You mean into vampires? Why wouldn't he? Of course he would if he could (or maybe just kill them more likely).

Would they work with Angelus unturned...I don't think Angelus is going after Connor at all so it's moot to me.

 

[white avenger]

Here goes - another what if. Buffy gave Angel one minute of happiness and he lost his soul. Then a pill worked to do the soul job. Then came Darla, and he was willing to consider lawyers to be snacks food - and he still had his soul.

I think that the soul loved Connor as much as the demon does, and I think the demon should have taken over. After all, it's been allowed to push out more and more. Angelus would have ways to go after Holt - he wouldn't have given up.

Anyone agree it could have been a possibility? Would Angelus turn the others? Would the other be willing to work with Angelus unturned?

This is a confusing statement. "Buffy gave Angel..." Okay, that's easy to follow.

"Then a pill worked..." Some sort of pill would restore Angel's soul? Assuming that this might be so, who's going to be able to force him to swallow it? I know from experience, trying to make a 120 pound dog take an antibiotic capsule that it is nearly impossible to force large, strong creatures to swallow anything against their will. Did you mean, "Then a SPELL worked..."? Otherwise, you've lost me.

"Then comes Darla..." Okay, but I don't see your point. If anyone ever needed killing, it was that roomful of lawyers. I may be one of the few fans who believe that Angel was justified in his actions there. Angelus had nothing to do with what happened.

"The soul loved Connor as much as the demon does." The demon (Angelus) has been established as being unable to love anything or anyone. Are we supposed to believe that the aforementioned pill allows him now to be like Spike, capable of love, loyalty, and even a rudimentary sense of honor?

"Angelus would have ways of going after Holtz." Angelus has the capability of traveling into a hell dimension without some sort of spell being involved? Is that because of that pill again?

I seriously doubt that Angelus would make even the slightest effort to go after Connor without some extremely good reason, and I don't think that loving his son, even if he were capable of such feelings, would qualify as a good reason.

"Would Angelus have turned the others?" We almost never saw Angelus turn anyone except Drusilla. He's a killer. He has little or no interest in creating minions. Did you have some specific reason for him turning his team?

I'm sure that you had an interesting topic in mind for discussion, but we need some clarification or a total restatement in order to proceed.

 

[janas]

This is a confusing statement. "Buffy gave Angel..." Okay, that's easy to follow.

"Then a pill worked..." Some sort of pill would restore Angel's soul? Assuming that this might be so, who's going to be able to force him to swallow it? I know from experience, trying to make a 120 pound dog take an antibiotic capsule that it is nearly impossible to force large, strong creatures to swallow anything against their will. Did you mean, "Then a SPELL worked..."? Otherwise, you've lost me.

a spell? hahaha OMG I thought that @bespangeled was referring to the episode "Eternity" Doximall, a little happy pill, remember?

...and oh, the thing-dog is very true, try it to believe.

"The soul loved Connor as much as the demon does." The demon (Angelus) has been established as being unable to love anything or anyone. Are we supposed to believe that the aforementioned pill allows him now to be like Spike, capable of love, loyalty, and even a rudimentary sense of honor?

pills make miracles, you know? almost as much as the chip 😛

"Angelus would have ways of going after Holtz." Angelus has the capability of traveling into a hell dimension without some sort of spell being involved? Is that because of that pill again?

See above. Miraculous pills 😀

 

[bespangeled]

Dang - this is actually kind of funny. My paragraph on the happiness clause was just to show that while Angelus soul remained intact for a century, it is now showing signs of soul drift. It gets loose easier and easier. Like Doximall.

Next - the demon would definitely love Connor - demonically. Not tender and sweet, buying hockey outfits. But demonic = possessive. Connor is his, and if an old enemy came along and took what was his, he wouldn't back down. Yes, Angel tried everything he could to get Connor - and then Connor, with no technology at hand, figured out how to open the door. Angelus would have tried as lot of things Angel wouldn't.

What is the nature of Angel(us). Is it an on/off switch? I don't think it is. Angelus has to be at least co-present to know all that Angel knows about everyone. This riight here would be an excellent thread, actually. So would the comparison between Holtz and Angel.

Okay - that's the set-up. My questions were whether Angelus would turn the others, or would the others cooperate with Angelus. However, you guys threw out so many good ides that now I don't know what this thread should be about now.

So - Angel, Angelus, Holt and Connor - what is the nature of the Angel(us) split? How does Holtz compare to Ange(lus)? Most important of all - WWAD?😀

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Quickly one point first: Angelus is present inside Angel and knows all that Angel knows, true. It's an on and off switch in so far as either Angel or Angelus has complete control of the body, never both...and never by degrees (one by degrees more in control than the other). Their control is absolute: either Angel is in complete control or Angelus. The one not in control is totally helpless and reduced solely to observer. Maybe it gets broken down a little if Angel drinks human blood repeatedly, but as long as Angel doesn't, there is no problem.That's it, at least as I see it.

 

[thetopher]

With the Doximol drug from 'Eternity' I always saw it like this:

We know from 'Enemies' that when he wants to Angel can do a pretty darn good (although not flawless) Angelus act. So when he gets dosed Angel just thinks (thanks to chemical suggestion) that Angelus has taken over, but in actual fact he hasn't (because the curse isn't actually gone) the change isn't permentant, when the drug wears off Angel 'turns' back to normal.

There is no 'bleed' really, Angelus is a despicable demon, Angel can make some dark, morally dubious decisions sometimes, but thats about it, he's nowhere close to being that evil.

Angelus is either in or out of the bottle- its part of what makes 'the emergence of Angelus' such a big thing- it's rare. 🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

Dang - this is actually kind of funny. My paragraph on the happiness clause was just to show that while Angelus soul remained intact for a century, it is now showing signs of soul drift. It gets loose easier and easier. Like Doximall.

Next - the demon would definitely love Connor - demonically. Not tender and sweet, buying hockey outfits. But demonic = possessive. Connor is his, and if an old enemy came along and took what was his, he wouldn't back down. Yes, Angel tried everything he could to get Connor - and then Connor, with no technology at hand, figured out how to open the door. Angelus would have tried as lot of things Angel wouldn't.

What is the nature of Angel(us). Is it an on/off switch? I don't think it is. Angelus has to be at least co-present to know all that Angel knows about everyone. This riight here would be an excellent thread, actually. So would the comparison between Holtz and Angel.

Okay - that's the set-up. My questions were whether Angelus would turn the others, or would the others cooperate with Angelus. However, you guys threw out so many good ides that now I don't know what this thread should be about now.

So - Angel, Angelus, Holt and Connor - what is the nature of the Angel(us) split? How does Holtz compare to Ange(lus)? Most important of all - WWAD?😀

By that logic, then shouldn't Angel care about Angelus's family - should he not love all of the vampires that he sired, or that the master sired, as they are his aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, cousins, children, nieces, nephews etc.

 

[thetopher]

By that logic, then shouldn't Angel care about Angelus's family - should he not love all of the vampires that he sired, or that the master sired, as they are his aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, cousins, children, nieces, nephews etc.

Interestingly, and off topic here, you could argue that Angel does care, a little bit.

Although he staked Darla (when Buffy was threatened) he hesitates in doing fatal harm to both Drusilla and Spike on a couple of occassions.

I grant you that this could all be mixed up feelings of guilt at what 'he' has memories of doing to them/with them, but still Angel seems reluctant to just outright slay them.

Still, the same could be said about Buffy in 'Crush'- why she doesn't stake Spike, Drusilla and Harmony I never know.
Maybe she was sleepy. 🙂

 

[ILLYRIAN]

bespangeled,
I'm not to sure about using the term an on/off switch in regards to the Buffy series, now if the thread was about Vampire Diaries it'd be okay.
(Off Topic)
And where does the on/off switch for vampires come from? Angel is what happens when the switch is turned on. And when the switch is turned off you'd get Angelus.
Thats another one for the Buffy series.

 

[bespangeled]

Quickly one point first: Angelus is present inside Angel and knows all that Angel knows, true. It's an on and off switch in so far as either Angel or Angelus has complete control of the body, never both...and never by degrees (one by degrees more in control than the other). Their control is absolute: either Angel is in complete control or Angelus. The one not in control is totally helpless and reduced solely to observer. Maybe it gets broken down a little if Angel drinks human blood repeatedly, but as long as Angel doesn't, there is no problem.That's it, at least as I see it.

I disagree, and I think so do you. If drinking human blood can bring the demon closer to the surface then the balance is able to change. I'm not saying that this is the norm, only that this can happen under certain very rare circumstances..

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------

By that logic, then shouldn't Angel care about Angelus's family - should he not love all of the vampires that he sired, or that the master sired, as they are his aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, cousins, children, nieces, nephews etc.

No - but if an old enemy took Dru, would Angelus just walk away? And we saw how he was with Darla, and with Spike. So I'd say that demons consider themselves as owning other demons, those they are close to, those who nest together - part of being the alpha male. Connor came from Darla, his sire - Connor was his.

I was just going down the thought trail, wondering if other extreme emotions could affect the balance between Angel and Angelus. I figured the most life shaking event would be losing Connor.

It sounds like the real question is how Angel(us) functions between discrete entities.

---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 PM ----------

bespangeled,
I'm not to sure about using the term an on/off switch in regards to the Buffy series, now if the thread was about Vampire Diaries it'd be okay.
(Off Topic)
And where does the on/off switch for vampires come from? Angel is what happens when the switch is turned on. And when the switch is turned off you'd get Angelus.
Thats another one for the Buffy series.

Sorry - I don't watch TVD.

So how would you characterize the process if not a switch?

 

[ILLYRIAN]

bespangeled,
in the vampire diaries a vampire has the option of making themselves feel the humanity of what they have done (previous kills) or not feeling the humanity, which is a different way of describing Angel/ Angelus having a soul.

About how I would characterize the process? I wouldn't bother thinking about it, it is part of the show, it happens - that's good enough for me.