Another Possible Unexpected Return

[nerd4hire]

The return of Lindsey was a shocker. (although if you check out this thread Lindsey's Possible Return you'll see the possible return of Lindsey was predicted).

It got me to thinking. Who else might return as a bad guy. My first choice was Sahjhan, but that wouldn't be much of a shocker.

How about this one --The First

Sounds crazy right? Even I don't believe it, but I can make a case for it.

Do you remember this bit from Amends, when the First as Jenny is talking to Angel?

The First as Jenny: You can't live for eternity with all that pain. This is what you are. This is why WE brought you back.

What did the First mean by WE

*

OK, now compare this from Amends:

The First as Jenny: (pauses to consider) You don't have the strength to kill yourself.

Angel: I don't need strength. I just need the sun to rise.

He walks back out into the atrium.

The First as Jenny: You're not supposed to die. This isn't the plan.

She watches him walk through the atrium and take the steps up and out.

The First as Jenny: But it'll do.

to this from Salvage

CORDELIA
(hits the Beast) What about you? Letting him bait you into a fight like that. (paces) I haven't spent all this time and energy so you can mess it all up with your petty jealousies. You know Angelus is crucial to my plan.

BEAST
My apologies, my master.

CORDELIA
You need patience. He'll come around...when he sees what I have to offer. And, if he doesn't, you can pull off his head and tear him to bits.

Both the First and Evil-Cordelia claim to want Angel alive as part of some master plan. Failing that they want him dead. Why did they both need him alive? In particular why did Cordelia? We think we know what Cordelia's plan was. Why did she need Angel alive at that point?

Also why did both The First and Cordelia want Angel as Angelus? They both seemed to have similar plans for Angel. Keep him alive if possible and turn him into Angelus.

At a comic book convention Joss Whedon told the fans he was going to tie up some loose ends from Buffy in the upcoming Angel Season. Is this what he was talking about?

Here's some other tidbits that add to the circumstantial evidence.

In Salvage Faith is attacked by an inmate. Her attacker is brandishing a Bringer's knife. We always assumed the attack was to prevent her from going to Sunnydale and helping Buffy combat the first. What if that wasn't it at all? What if the reason she was attacked was to prevent her from coming to the aid of Angel.

Also in Salvage, Lilah is dead, but something appears as Lilah and has a conversation with Wesley. Does that remind you of anybody? Maybe Mr. First?

 

[Utopia]

That's a very interesting theory, nerd4hire. I actually wouldn't mind to see the return of The First. It kept things interesting and I liked it. But I'm not so sure that Joss would've known back in the third season of Buffy what was going to happen in the fifth season of Angel. I guess you have to leave it up to the imagination ...

But I support your theory. Bravo. 😀

 

[No Angel]

GOD I HOPE NOT! The First was boring as hell in Buffy. What did he do apart from taunt people?

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Hmm, food for thought there N4H.

There certainly seem to be ongoing plans which are part of the Good v Evil (or Order v Chaos?) battle in the background of both shows. More evident in Angel than Buffy IMO. Which makes me think - whatever happened to the Powers That Be in last season's Angel? Did I blink and miss them or were they not there at all (except for when Cordy was a fake PTB)?

 

[nerd4hire]

Originally posted by Rocket
I'm not so sure that Joss would've known back in the third season of Buffy what was going to happen in the fifth season of Angel.

True, but he wouldn't have had to. All Joss would have needed at that point was a general idea of what The First was up to. From there it could possibly have morphed into something for Angel Season 5.

It's interesting. Once you accept the possibility of The First in Angel Season 5 it creates the possibility of some interesting explanations for what's happening.

Here's one I find kind of cool.

If Jasmine had been collaborating with the First, the Powers That Be wouldn't have liked it. Is it possible they organized Angel getting the Amulet. They would have needed Lilah on their side. Could they have made a deal with Lilah to give her her life back in order to double-cross the Senior Partners?

This would have opened a spot up on the staff of W&H for Eve.

Also is it possible a newly corporeal Lilah is the one that dug the Amulet up to send to Angel?

 

[Allycat]

I think this all comes down to Holland's lines from Reprise.

Holland is standing in the open doors of the elevator slowly clapping his hands.
Angel walks slowly closer.
Holland: "Congratulations. Great victory."
Angel: "You're..."
Holland: "Holland Manners."
Angel: "...not alive."
Holland: "Oh, no. I'm quite dead. Unfortunately my contract with Wolfram and Hart extends well beyond that. (Gives Angel a big smile, then motions his head) Hop on in. You certainly earned it."
Angel slowly steps in, looking at Holland, who laughs.
Holland: "No. Not a ghost here. No, it's just me. Dead me. (Pulls the collar of his shirt aside to show Angel Darla's bite marks, then reaches for the elevator buttons) See? - Home office, wasn't it? I should mention the trip is one way."
Angel stands in the elevator looking out, not saying anything.
We see a homeless person pushing a loaded down shopping cart across the plaza in front of the elevator.
Holland: "Well, if there are no objections, I suggest we get going. It is rather a long ride."
Holland pushes the 'down' button. The doors close and we see the elevator descending down the elevator shaft.
Angel and Holland are standing side by side in the elevator as the lights from the floors it is passing flash by and typically annoying elevator music plays in the background.
Holland: "Well, this is exciting, isn't it? (Smiles) Going straight to the source. - So, what's the big plan, Angel? Destroy the Senior Partners, smash Wolfram and Hart once and for all?"
Angel: "Something like that."
Holland: "Hm-mm, now tell me just what do you think that would accomplish? In the end, I mean."
Angel: "It'll be - the end."
Holland: "Well, the end of you, certainly. But I meant in the larger sense."
Angel: "In the larger sense I really don't give a crap."
Holland: "Now I don't think that's true. - Be honest. - You got the tiniest bit of 'give a crap' left. Otherwise you wouldn't be going on this Kamikaze mission. Now let me see, there was something - in a sacred prophecy, some oblique reference to you. Something you're supposed to prevent. Now what was that?"
Angel: "The apocalypse."
Holland: "Yes, the apocalypse, of course. - Another one of those. Well, it's true. We do have one scheduled. And I imagine if you were to prevent it you would save a great many people. Well, you should do that then. Absolutely. I wasn't thinking. - Of course all those people you save from that apocalypse would then have the next one to look forward to, but, hey, it's always something, isn't it?"
The elevator shaft and cable dissolve as the elevator continues to plummet into a hellish red glow.
Angel: "You're not gonna win."
Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'"
Holland laughs and for the first time Angel turns his head to glance in Holland's general direction.
Angel: "Then why?"
Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"
Angel: "Why fight?"
Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."
And with that the elevator comes to a screeching halt.
The doors open and Angel looks out to see a homeless person pushing a loaded shopping cart across the plaza in front of the Wolfram and Hart Office building in LA.
Holland: "Welcome to the home office."
Angel: "This isn't..."
Holland: "Well, you know it is. - You know *that* better than anyone. Things you've seen. Things you've, well - done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there (Angel watches as some people in the plaza start yelling at each other) why, they wouldn't be people. - They'd all be angels."
The glove drops from Angel's right to land on the floor of the elevator and Angel slowly shuffles out of it.
Holland calling after him as the doors close: "Have a nice day."

Angel slowly walks the streets of LA, seeing a prostitute and a potential customer having a verbal disagreement, a woman yell at a girl.

Read the underlined bit. Suggests all evil is connected, working together. So whether its Jasmine or the First, the Senior Partners or Cordy.

Only for the dead Lilah talking to Wesley, I don't see the First's work on Angel.

However in the end, the real end, of the whole verse, I do see them all poppin' in.

The amulet, the two vamps with a soul, the First, Cordy, it will probably all add up in the end, but I think we need to wait just a tad more for that ... and thank god, cause after that, no more buffyverse.

 

[nerd4hire]

This is true Ally. Evil, or possibly evil characters have been popping into Angel and Buffy for the last couple of years preaching the moral philosophy, Good and Evil are two parts of the same whole, mixing and merging with each other.

Do you rememember this bit from Dream-Joyce in Bring on the Night?

JOYCE: "Buffy, evil isn't coming, it's already here. Evil is always here. Don't you know? It's everywhere... How are you gonna [stop it]? ...Buffy, no matter what your friends expect of you, evil is a part of us. All of us. It's natural. And no one can stop that. No one can stop nature..."

.

Question though? How does that prove The First could not possibly be a part of the plot-line in Angel Season 5?

(Here's an interesting sidebar concerning the quote you posted. Holland is still corporeal. That would mean Lilah is still Corporeal. She could dig up the amulet)

 

[Allycat]

Sure Lilah could've dug up the amulet. Truth is, I have no clue on who or what did it and why and I don't think we can know it yet, but it probably has something to do with the Senior Partners and Lindsay and Eve rather then the First. I don't think he will bring him in, cause of the whole thing where he wants to attrackt new viewers.

 

[nerd4hire]

Originally posted by Allycat
I don't think he (Joss) will bring him (The First) in, cause of the whole thing where he wants to attract new viewers.

I actually agree with that.

What about this possibility though? They drop clues foreshadowing some dark, hideous evil for the first 3/4s of the season.

All of a sudden it's Spring sweeps and we, the viewers, discover "Oh my God! It's The First". Angel says something along the lines of, "We need an expert on the First. Call Buffy". That wouldn't hurt ratings, and new viewers would tune in to find out what this Buffy fuss is alll about.

(If SMG's not available, call Faith and the Scoobies.)

One more thing. "Probably" is a dangerous word to use, when trying to predict an upcoming Joss Whedon plotline.

 

[Allycat]

Now, that was wishful thinking. With the scoobies and all. No, I'm placin my bets on a clash between Angel, the Senior Partners and Lindsay. The clash is either on the end, or more likely it will be like season 2, at 3/4's have the finale, and have some 5 more episodes used for a special arc.

 

[Magui]

Originally posted by nerd4hire
The return of Lindsey was a shocker. (although if you check out this thread Lindsey's Possible Return you'll see the possible return of Lindsey was predicted).

It got me to thinking. Who else might return as a bad guy. My first choice was Sahjhan, but that wouldn't be much of a shocker.

How about this one --The First

Sounds crazy right? Even I don't believe it, but I can make a case for it.

Do you remember this bit from Amends, when the First as Jenny is talking to Angel?



What did the First mean by WE

*

OK, now compare this from Amends:



to this from Salvage



Both the First and Evil-Cordelia claim to want Angel alive as part of some master plan. Failing that they want him dead. Why did they both need him alive? In particular why did Cordelia? We think we know what Cordelia's plan was. Why did she need Angel alive at that point?

Also why did both The First and Cordelia want Angel as Angelus? They both seemed to have similar plans for Angel. Keep him alive if possible and turn him into Angelus.

At a comic book convention Joss Whedon told the fans he was going to tie up some loose ends from Buffy in the upcoming Angel Season. Is this what he was talking about?

Here's some other tidbits that add to the circumstantial evidence.

In Salvage Faith is attacked by an inmate. Her attacker is brandishing a Bringer's knife. We always assumed the attack was to prevent her from going to Sunnydale and helping Buffy combat the first. What if that wasn't it at all? What if the reason she was attacked was to prevent her from coming to the aid of Angel.

Also in Salvage, Lilah is dead, but something appears as Lilah and has a conversation with Wesley. Does that remind you of anybody? Maybe Mr. First?

that's an interesting theory...i wouldnt mind if it happens,would be cool!

 

[Jacklyn]

This was the way I had been thinking all of last year. I always had a suspicion that The First and Jasmine/Evil Cordy were working together! Interesting theory N4H! 😀

 

[nerd4hire]

Speaking of Evil-Cordy. We always assumed she was some incarnation of Jasmine. What if, in reality, Cordelia had in some way been possessed by The First.?

That would make The First, Connor's girlfriend and Jasmine's mother.

Wouldn't that be wild?

 

[Angelic]

would be cool...maybe...but theres that whole thing of why would he bring the first back? Thats a nice theory and the evidence behind would seem to support it. But I dont think that Josh would bring the first back...Dunno why I just said that...Just a gut feeling. I always had a sorta feeling that EvilCordy and Jasmine and the First were working together...

Originally posted by Allycat
I don't think he (Joss) will bring him (The First) in, cause of the whole thing where he wants to attract new viewers.

I agree with that too...and they would have to backtrack for new Angel veiwers or people who never saw Buffy

 

[nerd4hire]

Just to drive you more crazy, here's some more circumstantial support for the theory.

When Evil-Cordelia speaks inside Angel's head she does so with a male voice? Is this just a method of disguising herself, or is there more to it?

I and others have noticed a structural similarity between the symbols carved into Spike in Never Leave Me, and those tatooed on Lindsey in Destiny. Coincidence?

 

[Utopia]

To make reference to the point made earlier about Joss wanting to attract more viewers ... Every new season to every show is going to attract new viewers to the show. And it's only natural that they get confused along the way. I know I was when I began to watch Buffy in it's fifth season. But that's what the internet was made for. So I kind of think this is a flimsy excuse for not supporting the return of The First.

I, personally, think it's very possible and am kind of rooting for it to happen. 🙂

Just more of my two cents. 😀

 

[Angelic]

Originally posted by nerd4hire
Just to drive you more crazy, here's some more circumstantial support for the theory.

When Evil-Cordelia speaks inside Angel's head she does so with a male voice? Is this just a method of disguising herself, or is there more to it?

I and others have noticed a structural similarity between the symbols carved into Spike in Never Leave Me, and those tatooed on Lindsey in Destiny. Coincidence?

LOL is it fun to drive us crazy...you just had to do it!
I never thought is was more than a disguse...she could've been talking through the First or vise/versa. I too noticed the similarity in the 2 symbols....Lol you succeded in driving me more crazy!🙂

 

[Primal Slayer]

EvilCordy, uses a gem to get inside Angels head and yes it is to disguise her voice because Angelus/Angel would know Cordys voice.

I dont think TheFirst is anywhere near Angel and co. right now since it probably still is weak after getting defeated, but The First probably will show up sometime in Angel since it is well The FIRST EVIL.

But The First had nothing to do with Evil Cordy, they explained how EvilCordy was just something caused by birthing contractions or something.

 

[nerd4hire]

Originally posted by Primal Slayer
EvilCordy, uses a gem to get inside Angels head and yes it is to disguise her voice because Angelus/Angel would know Cordys voice.

I hate it when this happens. Someone obviously knows something I don't, but I can't find the reference that will allow me to catch up with them. I know Cordelia used a gem to communicate with Angelus, but I can't find the part where it says the gem also disguises the true identity of the user. It could, of course, say that somewhere in the script, but I can't find it. Could you show me where it says the gem is also an identity masker?

they explained how EvilCordy was just something caused by birthing contractions or something.

What? Huh? (Shakes his head violently back and forth to get the blood rushing to his brain). I still don't get it.

Who said what, when, and what is it supposed to prove. I don't get it. Give me a reference please, so I can know what you know.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Jasmine or Welsey say something about it. Ill look for it later.

And about the gem, you could obviously tell that the gem also diguised her voice so Angelus wouldnt find out who it was since we see her talking into the stone then we hear the voice inside Angelus head, I dont think they would put it into the script since they wouldnt need to. Its like with those voice thingies that changes someones voice who are usually criminals.

Edit: From shiny happy people:

WESLEY
It's a spell. Think. Even before its birth, this thing controlled Cordelia, caused her to do unspeakable things. It's evil. Remember the Rain of Fire, permanent midnight, all the horrors done in its name"”

WOMAN (O.S.)
Must be rectified.

Everyone in the room turns to look at the woman Cordelia gave birth to. Connor and Angel fall to their knees immediately. Everyone else stares at her in awe.

LORNE
My God.

WOMAN
(smiles) People keep saying that.

Lorne kneels.

FRED
I'm just gonna... (kneels) do this.

Gunn kneels.

WOMAN
For so long, you've all been drowning in the fighting and the pain. I'd like to help...if you'll have me.

WESLEY
(kneels) Tell us what to do.

Cut to:

10 INT. CORDELIA'S ROOM AT HOTEL / ANGEL INVESTIGATIONS - NIGHT
The gang is gathered in Cordelia's room where Cordelia is now laid out on her bed. Gunn and Fred are lighting candles. The group is arranged in a loose circle as they all stare at the woman, smiling.

LORNE
Eternal bliss. It suits her.

FRED
Cordelia must be so happy...to be the one who brought you here. What an honor.

WOMAN
(sitting on the bed beside Cordelia) I'm the one who's honored...by Cordelia, and by all of you. I can't tell you how good it is to be back.

WESLEY
Back? Then you've been here before?

WOMAN
Yes. In the beginning, before the time of man, great beings walked the earth. Untold power emanated from all quarters"”the seeds of what would come to be known as good and evil. But the shadows stretched and became darkness, and the malevolent among us grew stronger. The earth became a demon realm. Those of us who had the will to resist left this place, but we remained ever-watchful.

GUNN
You're a power that... was?

WOMAN
But then something new emerged from deep inside the earth"”neither demon, nor God.

WESLEY
Man.

WOMAN
And it seemed, for a time, that through this new race, a balance might be restored.

FRED
Guess we really let you down.

WOMAN
But you didn't. It was we who failed you. (stands) We became little more than observers. I could no longer bear to just watch all the suffering. I had to find a way back. But, first I needed a miracle. And so I arranged one. (touches Connor's face) Through you, Angel, through Darla. That is where my parentage began. Two vampires"”creatures one human corrupted by darkness. And you with a soul"”a miracle already.

ANGEL
But how?

WOMAN
Through Lorne.

LORNE
Huh?

WOMAN
The day Lorne sent Angel and human Darla into the trials to earn a new chance at life.

ANGEL
I failed.

WOMAN
No, you earned that life. And there it is. (points to Connor) All these events unfolded that I might reenter this physical plain. I know there's been chaos.

WESLEY
All the events we've witnesses these past months, all the madness, it was birth pains.

WOMAN
But the storm has passed.