Another Senseless Shooting, But With Somewhat Different Results

white avenger

white avenger
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Okay, folks, this is somewhat graphic, so be forewarned. A shooter in a church in Texas apparently got more than he bargained for. A few useless deaths, but it could have been far, far worse if not for a few armed citizens capable of shooting back.


At a time when seconds matter, the police can be there in minutes. Security is ultimately a personal responsibility.
 
If every state had open carry laws, there'd be A LOT less shootings like these.

I disagree. I think there would be A LOT more shootings like these.

If there were a few more shootings that ended in this fashion, with the would be mass murderer stopped before he could fully implement his plan, whether he was stopped by an on duty security guard or an armed private citizen, and the news media was as diligent in reporting those events as they are in covering every mass shooting from the Texas Watch Tower, Columbine, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, and all the others, it would serve as a definite deterrent to would be terrorists who seek little more than an impressive body count and a brief moment of glory. The end result would be, I honestly believe, a far more noticeable drop in such attacks than all the 10 round magazine and assault rifle legislature that we have been burdened with so far. Criminals, by definition, break laws. The illegality of their weapon of choice is of little consequence to them. The near certainty that they will be stopped before they can carry out their goal would be a much better deterrent.

This was not, by the way, the only instance where a shooting or other crime was stopped in such a manner. It happens far more often than you might imagine. Either a police officer, security guard, or armed citizen, stops the perpetrator before they can be successful. This is a fact. What could never be even estimated are the no doubt countless times when a crime was never even attempted, because the criminal knew, or strongly believed, that theirs would not be the only gun in the area. Gun free zones are nothing more than an open invitation for killing.
 
If there were a few more shootings that ended in this fashion, with the would be mass murderer stopped before he could fully implement his plan, whether he was stopped by an on duty security guard or an armed private citizen, and the news media was as diligent in reporting those events as they are in covering every mass shooting from the Texas Watch Tower, Columbine, Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, and all the others, it would serve as a definite deterrent to would be terrorists who seek little more than an impressive body count and a brief moment of glory. The end result would be, I honestly believe, a far more noticeable drop in such attacks than all the 10 round magazine and assault rifle legislature that we have been burdened with so far. Criminals, by definition, break laws. The illegality of their weapon of choice is of little consequence to them. The near certainty that they will be stopped before they can carry out their goal would be a much better deterrent.

Yep, anyone with a grudge can just walk in someplace and start shooting...because they know most people don't carry guns. But if they thought there'd be armed resistance, they'd have second thoughts for sure.
 
because they know most people don't carry guns.
I don't think they really care. Even if there were open carry laws in all states you would still have mass shootings. You would just have more videos like the one above, not less. People are not going around shooting up other people and locations because they know there are none there armed.
 
But if they thought there'd be armed resistance, they'd have second thoughts for sure.

Don't misunderstand, I am not advocating a return to what the movies depict as the wild west, where everyone walks around armed to the teeth (it wasn't really like that, by the way. Most Western towns had strict policies about openly carrying guns within city limits) I'm just saying that there should be the definite possibility of armed resistance, swift and, if necessary, lethal, to any such attempt. That could just as easily, more appropriately, in fact, be in the form of armed, PROPERLY TRAINED, security personnel. Relying solely on private citizens, usually untrained, in such situations, should be the last option. But it should definitely be an option.

Even if there were open carry laws in all states you would still have mass shootings. You would just have more videos like the one above, not less. People are not going around shooting up other people and locations because they know there are none there armed.

I would have to disagree. Gun Free Zones such as churches, shopping malls, schools, theaters, etc, seem to be the prime target for would be mass shooters, and cities with the most stringent gun laws, like Chicago, seem to consistently have far more gun related crimes than more "gun friendly" areas. This is just too consistent to be a coincidence. I have never hear of a shooting at a gun show or a rifle range, with the exception of accidental discharges, and even those are quite rare.
 
I don't think they really care. Even if there were open carry laws in all states you would still have mass shootings. You would just have more videos like the one above, not less. People are not going around shooting up other people and locations because they know there are none there armed.

But you rarely see these shooters going into, say, a police station and taking on a bunch of armed cops. No, they usually choose everyday, unarmed people who are minding their business.

I'd MUCH rather have videos like this, where the guy gets blown away by his intended victims. Wild, wild west, babe. Frontier justice is seriously underrated.


Edit: I didn't see @white avenger's post before I wrote mine. I just noticed my first paragraph basically said the same thing he did. 😂
 
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mass shooters ... gun related crimes
There is a huge difference between mass shooters and gun related crime though. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

But you rarely see these shooters going into, say, a police station and taking on a bunch of armed cops.
I wouldn't say rarely. It happens more frequently than they let on. At least once a year it seems. There is just no one there taking videos and they downplay the situation.
 
I wouldn't say rarely. It happens more frequently than they let on. At least once a year it seems. There is just no one there taking videos and they downplay the situation.

Either way, anyone who decides to go on a shooting spree deserves to be executed on the spot.
 
There is a huge difference between mass shooters and gun related crime though. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

No, but the statistics are usually grouped together whenever the question of gun availability/gun violence/gun control is brought up. I will admit, though, that both the pro and anti gun control groups cherry pick the specific statistics that favor them to make their points.
 
Couldn't potential situations with armed people everywhere go badly as well? What about people getting caught in cross-fire, when it turns into a shootout especially if the first retaliatory shots miss? I'm not sure more guns on the scene necessarily means greater safety for everyone else. Anyway, just a thought
 
Also, I think a discussion like this pulls attention away from the real problem that needs to be addressed, which is why our culture has so many mass shooters to begin with. Other modernized nations don't have the degree of mass shooters as we do, by far. We need to ask what it is about our culture that is the cause of this. Gun vs. Anti-gun debates often lose sight of the bigger question. Avoiding this bigger question seems to have normalized gun violence. We don't stop to ask or wonder anymore what is so different and wrong about American culture that generates this.
 
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thrasherpix
And why it keeps getting worse even when violent crime in general goes down, though the US has always seem ahead of the curve in this regard, killing famous people or mass murder of kids not for politics but for sheer infamy.
What was it that cop said, - Today evil walked among us. Presumably he meant the shooter, if so one (man) demon does not make evil. Or did that cop know something he didn't admit to?
Only one man had a shotgun - had he gone there to kill may people or just one man for a specific reason and if so did he?
Those other people who took a loaded gun to a church, did they have ulterior motives to carry their guns?
To my mind the church should have a walk through metal detector to give some form of safety for the congregation plus a few people with guns.
Nothing was said about them gun toting few being chosen by the church. I'd be inclined to wonder how many others carried guns that day, and why?
 
Couldn't potential situations with armed people everywhere go badly as well? What about people getting caught in cross-fire, when it turns into a shootout especially if the first retaliatory shots miss? I'm not sure more guns on the scene necessarily means greater safety for everyone else. Anyway, just a thought

It could. Especially in a darkened cinema. (It should be remembered that plenty of mass shooters also wear body armor of some kind, and if using a rifle they often use an ammo, unlike most handguns, that can punch through say a chair, or ricochet. While individual citizens have indeed stopped mass shooters in the past, some of those ended up being killed themselves in large part because they didn't take this into account.)

At the same time there's been some impressive body counts from mass murder in places like China because a knife is so silent that no one thinks to run, especially like one guy who went through a boarding school slitting sleeping student's throats one by one. The mass shooting of Israeli schools--which I consider a different case from school shootings in the USA for multiple reasons--was stopped by arming teachers, all with military experience, and the mass murderers just switched to suicide bombers. Our own most deadly mass murderers used explosives, including at the Bath school massacre which killed about 40 little kids and injured about as many more, and if Timothy McVey hadn't practically flashed a neon sign he was the Oklahoma City bomber, quite proud of himself, he could've gotten a chance to do it again. Making these explosives can be ridiculously easy as the components are highly useful in agriculture and industrial ways and would no doubt become the next big thing if the impossible task of confiscating all guns from civilians were to somehow happen.)

I'm glad I made the right call not to pull my own gun some pranksters (gods I hope they were teens) threw some fireworks into a store I was at right after a mass shooting elsewhere that caused instant panic, as if anyone else did and not seeing a shooter (because there wasn't one) but seeing me armed might've focused on me (this is unlikely, mind you, but sure to have caused me problems with the police wanting to question me at the very least).

However, it's unlikely in most cases. This is mainly because people in such places know who belongs and who doesn't. The church members aren't going to start shooting each other (at least not on accident though they might try to pass it off as such if they can't blame it on the would-be mass shooter). When a mass shooter entered the Virginia’s Appalachian Law School in 2002, guns weren't allowed in the school but in vehicles, and at least two went out to get their own guns and then rush back in, taking down the shooter because it was obvious who he was while they knew each other and everyone else was hiding or playing dead. Maybe the situation would've been even better if they hadn't had to run to their car first. (You might be tempted to point out Virginia Tech in which was so high not only because there were no guns, but police came and left while the shooter was still active, even if taking a break to do some other stuff!)

Charles Whitman who murdered his wife and then opened fired from a college tower was trained as a sniper IIRC (too lazy to look it up). In any case, being many decades ago and in Texas, many students had guns and fires suppressive fire at him. While they could not stop him given his superior rifle and training and strategic cover, they did pin him down and stymie his attempts to kill more (but he still managed to kill many). This literal minute man militia did not turn on each other, they focused on the sniper.

And my favorite...



NOTE: acknowledging that sometimes guns save lives and having certain people armed, both with concealed and with open weapons, might not be a bad thing (and I personally know of times they saved lives without even being fired, just present in the hands of someone being targeted by violence, and guns have other uses where there are wild animals and vermin) does not mean you have to sign up with the NRA and embrace their extremist views of the 2A, refuse any form of regulation on acquiring and keeping guns, or deny the CDC the chance to study gun violence (just as they study death by drowning, car accidents, etc), or say AR-15s should be legal to purchase. One can choose to reject both extremes, not be forced to pick one over the other.

And like you, I'm much more concerned with the culture of rage that seems to be overtaking the USA combined with the old glorification of gun violence which has been combated by many for years by people who still supported responsible firearms ownership but also didn't want to see killing glorified. (That said, killing in self-defense is not murder, nor should vigilantism and self-defense be conflated as the same thing.) I saw the recent Joker movie (because I was dragged to it) and found a group that cheered at every sociopathic act far more disturbing than the movie itself.
 
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
I have absolutely NO sympathy for the people occupying Palestine. When you take over a country and abuse the TRUE citizens, you deserve whatever harm comes your way.
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
You know a lot about this stuff. Thanks for sharing your perspective
The guy IS a hero. This story makes me feel good.

 
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thrasherpix
Not only did he save people, but rather than being a joyful vigilante glad for an excuse to shoot someone or prove himself the toughest, he obviously cared for protecting the innocent and honoring the fallen which is also refreshing.
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