Anti-gay reference in Angel??? (5x20)

(I apologize in advance for saying really mean things below. It's not my intent to start a flame war, I just have a tendancy towards strong language.)

Raine said:
It was made pretty clear on Buffy that Andrew was gay. It was never said but was hinted at to the extreme!!
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It seems to me, although I could be wrong, that you and your friend make too many assumptions. Yes, they hinted on BtVS that Andrew had a sexual attraction to at least a few guys (Warren and Spike being two of them). But then again, I can also show you at least a few times where Andrew said something about some woman being attractive. Although what's interesting about it is that there always seemed to be more, uh, passion in what he said about guys. Other interesting note is I got the sense that he was aware of what he himself said about women, but not what he himself said about guys.

Anyway. My point is, is that since nothing was ever actually stated out loud by him, how dare you make the assumption that he was gay? I personally have the suspicion that he may be bisexual. It's also possible that, like many bisexual people, espeically bisexual males, he's choosing to suppress or ignore his attraction to men because he knows it won't ever be accepted by society at large.

You and your friend seem to be perfect examples of this, since you (apparently) so narrowly define things as 1) Gay or 2) Straight. As if sexuality were that simple. It really annoys me when people do this. I wish you realized how difficult things become when you oversimplify so greatly.

Now about the episode ending: it is perhaps a bit of a cop out on the part of the show, yes. But then again it's annoying that as soon as we show the guy with a woman, then anything he says about changing for the better is automatically taken to mean "gay=bad". I think "assumtions=bad" instead. I also think sitting around inside, never getting out and meeting people like Andrew used to do is bad. Perhaps his change for the better was that now, he's most definitely meeting people. And he's speaking Italian. It's really annoying to me that as soon as he chooses to spend time with women you decide to label the entire series "anti-gay".
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
Yes, they hinted on BtVS that Andrew had a sexual attraction to at least a few guys (Warren and Spike being two of them). But then again, I can also show you at least a few times where Andrew said something about some woman being attractive. Although what's interesting about it is that there always seemed to be more, uh, passion in what he said about guys. Other interesting note is I got the sense that he was aware of what he himself said about women, but not what he himself said about guys.
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You make a very vaild point. I think the problem with Andrew is that it is easy to read him as either gay or bi depending on how much credence you put in his comments about attractive women. Your statement that he was aware about what he said about women can be read two ways. Either Andrew is bi and doesn't want to admit it so he is suppressing his attraction to men or he's gay and just saying the right things about women to keep everyone else from finding out his orientation. Being a lesbian myself, I have a lot of gay and bi friends and know that both behaviors are common place. Hell, I've even said things about attractive men without any feeling behind them to keep people from pegging me as a lesbian in a couple of bad situations.

I'm one of the people who read Andrew as gay since he was blatently attacted to Spike, Xander, and Warren. I would be interested to know what his exact comments about attractive women were since I don't remember them and didn't think he ment them and you read them so differently.

The reason people freaked out about this episode I think is because a smooth guy with two girls is usually read as heterosexual so when the writers ended Andrew's transformation with his "date" it bemused those of us who thought he was gay. Also, he didn't flirt with Spike nearly as much as in the past. It would have been better if Andrew had left the house with a guy and a girl if he is supposed to be bi since "growing up" includes comming to terms with his sexuality and he has never publicly delt with his attraction to men. I think this episode can be read as anti-gay, but wasn't intended to be anti-gay. Either Andrew is bi, the writers of this particular episode forgot Andrew's earlier history/ implied orientation, or the girls were just friends.
 
Hitome said:
I think this episode can be read as anti-gay, but wasn't intended to be anti-gay. Either Andrew is bi, the writers of this particular episode forgot Andrew's earlier history/ implied orientation, or the girls were just friends.
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Yeah I know, you're right. 🙂 I think the only reason I came out so aggressive in my previous post is 'cause the forum title is so provocative. Oh, also because up until recently I was laboring under that dumb, false notion of there only being 1) gay or 2) straight myself. And now that I'm free of it, I feel sort of obligated to remind everyone else. 🙂

Hitome said:
I think the problem with Andrew is that it is easy to read him as either gay or bi depending on how much credence you put in his comments about attractive women.
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Truthfully, up until the end of 5x20, I didn't have much credence for his statements about women at all. And his statements make for slim pickin's to be sure. Okay, back in the earlier portion of season six, Andrew mentioned some random supermodel woman or something like that I think. I'll check sometime; when I do, I may find out that his remark is more or less significant than I remember it being. Then there's the part where Warren does a spell to get Katrina and Andrew seemed "on board" with that. Now I know, I know that's also very vague. Then there's the scene from the Angel season five ep with Andrew where he puts his hands on Fred's shoulders refers to her, somewhat cutely, somewhat condescendingly perhaps, as "attractive female". Yeah I know--not much at all.

Hitome said:
Your statement that he was aware about what he said about women can be read two ways. Either Andrew is bi and doesn't want to admit it so he is suppressing his attraction to men or he's gay and just saying the right things about women to keep everyone else from finding out his orientation.
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Actually, until the end of 5x20, the way I read it was a little more like: he sort of thought he was supposed to be attracted to women, but, unconsciously there were various male forms that he found more attractive. And, of course, this led to humorous statements on his part. And, really, I think that's the only reason the writers started giving Andrew those sorts of lines in the first place.


Hitome said:
Also, he didn't flirt with Spike nearly as much as in the past.
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True, but he did hug Spike immediately. Then after he invited the vamps inside, he said, "I've got plans for this evening, but I could drop them if you guys wanna hang." Now I may not be entirely sure of my own sexuality, but if I had the choice between hangin' out with a couple of undead vamp guys or a pair of beautiful blond ladies... I'm takin' the blondes. 🙂 Probably that just means I'm shallow though. Oh well, at least I'll have a shallow form of happiness. 🙂

Hitome said:
It would have been better if Andrew had left the house with a guy and a girl if he is supposed to be bi since "growing up" includes comming to terms with his sexuality and he has never publicly delt with his attraction to men.
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Yeah that woulda been pretty cool. Shouldn't be too difficult to alter with the right video editing software. 🙂
 
Raine said:
It was made pretty clear on Buffy that Andrew was gay. It was never said but was hinted at to the extreme!! At the end of "The Girl in Question", Andrew gives Spike and Angel a speech on how people change, move on, and whatever... He's implying that he has changed for the better when he comes out all slick and cool in his tux. Afterwards he goes to open the door to greet his two extremely attractive female dates. The scene was boldly stating that Andrew has changed for the better, going from "gay" to "straight".

I'm not sure whether or not to agree with my friend, but she does bring up good points...
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Using that argument I could easily say that Buffy the Vampire Slayer was anti-straight. Willow was not only hinted to be, but shown to be hetero-sexual for over three years. Then suddenly she becomes gay, gains confidence, gets a better wardrobe and becomes an extremely powerful witch. So then, that would mean that Whedon's shows are both anti-straight and anti-gay. That doesn't leave a whole lot of 'pro-' left over.

I think perhaps your friends need to think things through a bit more. Knee jerk reactions aside, their stance doesn't seem to make sense, especially with the near total lack of evidence to support it. We don't know for a fact that Andrew was gay. We also don't know that he's now straight. Besides, if someone decides to switch their sexual preference how does that de-value their old preference, much less out right condemn it? Perhaps Andrew, like Willow, was confused by his sexuality. Perhaps those aren't his dates but simply Slayers he's looking out for. Perhaps he's bi-sexual. Perhaps he's on a secret Watcher's Council undercover assignment. We don't know, and regardless any which way it isn't "anti-gay". If Andrew grew up and suddenly discovered that he prefers women to men how does that suggest that being gay is wrong or bad? It doesn't.

I think often times people read too much into things that aren't meant to be read into.
 
Happy said:
Using that argument I could easily say that Buffy the Vampire Slayer was anti-straight. Willow was not only hinted to be, but shown to be hetero-sexual for over three years. Then suddenly she becomes gay, gains confidence, gets a better wardrobe and becomes an extremely powerful witch. So then, that would mean that Whedon's shows are both anti-straight and anti-gay. That doesn't leave a whole lot of 'pro-' left over.

I think perhaps your friends need to think things through a bit more. Knee jerk reactions aside, their stance doesn't seem to make sense, especially with the near total lack of evidence to support it. We don't know for a fact that Andrew was gay. We also don't know that he's now straight. Besides, if someone decides to switch their sexual preference how does that de-value their old preference, much less out right condemn it? Perhaps Andrew, like Willow, was confused by his sexuality. Perhaps those aren't his dates but simply Slayers he's looking out for. Perhaps he's bi-sexual. Perhaps he's on a secret Watcher's Council undercover assignment. We don't know, and regardless any which way it isn't "anti-gay". If Andrew grew up and suddenly discovered that he prefers women to men how does that suggest that being gay is wrong or bad? It doesn't.

I think often times people read too much into things that aren't meant to be read into.
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(IMHO) Game, set, and match to Happy. 🙂 Valid points all, and I think I agree completely.
 
I wouldn't actually say that changing from a 'geek' to 'super suave' is a change for the better! ::rolf::
 
DXY said:
I wouldn't actually say that changing from a 'geek' to 'super suave' is a change for the better! ::rolf::
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I am a geek myself, and I agree with your statement. (thinks)

heh. There's people up in arms thinking that the show was making an anti-gay statement; so I suppose if I wanted, I could get mad and say the show was making an anti-geek statement. 🙂 But I'm not gonna.
 
I don't think those two women were Andrew's dates. First of all, I have and have had in the past many gay male friends. Gay men tend to prefer the company of women a lot more then they do with men. Also, since I've been to Italy, I know that the women over there are very very attractive. They're slimmer than our obese nation, and they have a fashion sense that doesn't compare to most of America (I say most, being that I'm a born & raised New Yorker - we know how to dress 🙂 ). I don't see any anti-gay message in that episode or either series in general.
 
When I saw this episode for the first time, I never interpreted it as Anti-gay. I thought of it as more disappointment. I'm a gay male and a nerd, I could relate to him (I assumed right off the bat that he was gay) and i felt very disappointed and cheated out of something. I know they never officially said he was 'gay' or 'straight', and you can also interpret 5X20 in many different ways, but I felt a big let down.
 
I've never thought of Andrew being gay at all. He did have certain feminine qualities to him but I just always thought of him as being the sensitive shy geek, never really considered his sexuality.
 
SilverLiner said:
I've never thought of Andrew being gay at all. He did have certain feminine qualities to him but I just always thought of him as being the sensitive shy geek, never really considered his sexuality.
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And the show writers did leave it somewhat ambiguous so that you could think about it that way. But, at the same time, it must be mentioned that starting with the end of season six, the writers did drop various subtle (and not so subtle) hints indicating that Andrew might have been interested in Warren as a little bit more than just a friend. But, at the same time, the way they played it, I could never tell for sure if Andrew was really aware of this consciously or not.

As has been pointed out here, even the end scene in this Angel ep could be interpreted in more than one way.
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Now this is completely unrelated, but this "smilie" just looks to cool for me to not use, so here it is 🙂

:dancing:
 
ok late to the party on this one but...

don't be so stupid. Whedon once walked out on his Job during buffy season 4 because the suites didnt like Willow/Tara sure he got a lot of stick from people sayin Tara wasnt hot enough/ was too hot or the fact they went lesbian not gay.

now lots of refrences were made to Andrew liking guys, for example when he films Willow and Kennedy Snogging and just films the window. im not going to list them all here your supposed to be fans go watch your dvd/video/illegal downloads

now if the two ladies were Andrews dates then it suggests a gang bang. (well hardly but more then it suggests being anti gay) and surely two girls to a guy is slightly gay also?

its about a nerd becoming cool not straight.

also whats this "my friend says" for gods sake get your own informed opinion and stick with it.
 
also whats this "my friend says" for gods sake get your own informed opinion and stick with it.-Faldor
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Hear, hear!

I never thought of Andrew as gay, actually. Not in Buffy, and not in Angel. Of course, he changes greatly, from nerdy outcast, to cool chick magnet, but I think the main point Joss was getting to was: "Change for the good>" This was directed towards Angel and Spike, and though I'm not sure the exact conversation, I think it was like an example, showing Andrew with his new style.

Your friend thinks too much! I never ever would have thought anything like Angel being anti-gay unless it hit me in the face. She's picking apart the show to a point where it's no longer needed.

Andrew was sorta crushing on Warren, I guess, butI think he was confused. No girls liked him, and he felt a closer bond between him and Warren than Jonathan and Warren. When Warren died, he was upset {as we all would be if our best friend died} but he moved on. Seeing Spike after he came back on Angel, well, he was excited! He looked up to Spike, and sorta replaced his hero Warren with Spike in the last season of Buffy. Super cool Spike was Andrews idol, and he was glad to see him.

Also, Andrew is just nerdy, so...weirdness abroad. :Guillotin
 
I think it was made clear that andrew was gay, but i don't think that his going straight was ever a point to be made, it was his changing, actually being accepted, and trusted, not being under suspicioin all the time, the the best man for the job and his attepts at being suave (I think he failed dismally). i hate Andrew but i don't think that the buffyverse was ever in any way anti-gay. I mean...willow/tara/kennedy. I know thay are women but I think that thier orientation made a statment reagrding that whole area of debate. But people can and will read what they want to into things.
 
In 'Life Serial', Andrew is instructed to hold hands with Warren by Jonathan. Do you think he would have played along and did it, though thuroughly enjoying it...but instead, he said, disgusted, "With EACH OTHER?!" This may have been before his infatuation with Warren...I'm not sure...but it seemed like he wanted a kick in the head before he held hands with Warren...
 
For the record, I think Andrew is bi. Yes, he seemed to have a crush on Spike and a little bit on Xander, but seemed to me that he had a crush on Anya as well.
 
Well, I did always think that Andrew was not quite straight.

But anyways, I don't think that the writers were implying that Andrew had changed his life by becoming straight and going out with two girls. I didn't get that impression. I think it meant that even geeks can go out with supermodel girls.

And if the writers were anti-gay.... why oh why would they have a main character be gay?
 
Let me start off by saying - I loved Andrew's character!

I never thought that Andrew was gay. I just assumed that if he was, they'd make it MORE clear - they sure weren't vague with Willow going lesbian. And besides, you can NEVER judge if someone is gay or straight based on the way they act alone.

For example, I used to have a best friend who was gay...but I never knew! He told me shortly after we stopped hanging out and started talking over e-mail. He was a bit geeky but NO ONE knew he was gay. And I have another friend who is straight and has a girlfriend who sometimes acts a bit feminine, but this is because he lives in a house full of women.

As for the idea that he was with two women friends suggesting he was gay, I strongly disagree to that. I'm straight but the majority of my friends are girls. This is for several reasons. One, they're hot. Two, they're more mature. Three, they tend not to worry as much about what other people think as much as guys do about certain things. And four, simply because I can talk to them about how I feel and all that other crap, something you don't do much with guy friends. I *DO* have several guy friends but I like talking to girls.

I think Andrew was mostly there to be funny. I don't think it's a big deal if he was straight or gay, he was a fun character. And the show is obviously not anti-gay. Like someone above said - if it's anti anything it's anti-straight. 🙂
 
I tend to see Andrew as being a young man that probably wasn't sure of his place in the world, certainly at the time of the last two seasons of Buffy. Was he a gay guy waiting to come out? Was he a bi. Was he straight but just incredibly camp?

Thing is that we never saw him actually involved with anyone. All the signs we were given certainly suggested Andrew was a closet homosexual but as he never actually said the words "i'm gay" then it has to be left open to opinion. Personally though i would not take the last scene Andrew appeared in during The Girl In Question as proof of anything, either way. Is it impossible to imagine that a gay guy could have two female friends and go out on the town with them? Hardly!
 
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