Have Faith
Townie
I personally don't mind Buffy with anyone but Riley. HATE HIM. Will anyone second that?
Anti-Spike Group
- Thread starter WillowRosenberg
- Start date
I personally don't mind Buffy with anyone but Riley. HATE HIM. Will anyone second that?
TheChosenTwo
A Vision of Hotliness
I'm out of my "I hate Spuffy" fase. Only like them in s7 though.
And I hate Riley too
K
KristenVictoria
Guest
As much as I enjoy Spike as a character, I also wish that he hadn't been brought back after "Chosen." I thought it was a perfect, heroic finish for a character who's progressed so much. When he became corporeal in Angel Season Five, it was kind of an "ugh" moment for me. In a way, it cheapened his sacrifice in "Chosen."
"I'd like to see how this ends" was such a great last line for his character. James Marsters says it with a bit of cockiness and true pride that just makes me go "Yes!"
"I'd like to see how this ends" was such a great last line for his character. James Marsters says it with a bit of cockiness and true pride that just makes me go "Yes!"
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
I through Spike was a great character in Season 2/3, in 4/5 he was still good when he messed with the scoobies and got all stalker with Buffy, I think about half way through 5 it got less funny and in Season 6/7 I think they destroyed his character.
I actually liked him in Angel, I think his dynamic with Angel was good, he was back to being that funny annoying character that works so much better for him
I actually liked him in Angel, I think his dynamic with Angel was good, he was back to being that funny annoying character that works so much better for him
white avenger
white avenger
Every regular character on both shows changed and evolved from the time of their introduction. Spike's evolution was more drastic than most, but certainly not unique. Willow evolved from a shy, introverted computer geek into one of, if not THE most powerful witch in the world. Cordy evolved from a stuck up little rich girl into a hero and a Higher Being. Wes started out as a younger version of Season 1 Giles, but even more so, into a real hero. Fred went from a recluse to being a hell god. And those are only some examples. Why, when everyone else grew, evolved, adapted, and just plain changed, do you think that Spike should have stayed "the way he was supposed to be?" Other characters have gone back and forth from hero to villain, from monster to champion, the most obvious examples being Faith, Anya, and Angel, and few people if any have ever complained, so what makes Spike's character evolution so difficult to accept?
K
Kelsey
Nice argument!
Wishing Oceans
I don't think, I know.
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2008
- Messages
- 2,103
I dislike Spike for many reasons. 🙂 To sum them up...
🙂
- His dialect- I find his way of speaking to be crude which is a complete turn-off for me
- Especially from S4+, I found him to be incredibly pathetic. Really, he was inventing new lows. CoughBuffybotchocolatescough
- He's really just a loser trying to hide his insecurities with an act, and I'm just not into fakers like that. He should get some self-respect!
- In Ats S5, I don't even know who this "Spike" is anymore, he's like some annoying little kid.
- I generally find his story-lines to be non-engaging
🙂
MinwaraYana
Agree about him being a faker.
K
KristenVictoria
Guest
Oops! Just realized I misquoted Spike. He said, "I wanna see how this ends."
ThomasMagic
Townie
I dont really like spike he just seems to be a character they just shoved in.
The show could go on without him
He's just lame after he got his soul back.
Kinda funny for a while when he got the chip. But i got over it
He's making to show confusing to be honest with all the babbling.
I thought at the end of season six he wanted the chip removed, but got his soul returned for his random love for Buffy
It seems like his character has run out of ideas and is just being dragged along
---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------
I Very much agree with you!!!
:cat2::cat2:
The show could go on without him
He's just lame after he got his soul back.
Kinda funny for a while when he got the chip. But i got over it
He's making to show confusing to be honest with all the babbling.
I thought at the end of season six he wanted the chip removed, but got his soul returned for his random love for Buffy
It seems like his character has run out of ideas and is just being dragged along
---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------
I Very much agree with you!!!
:cat2::cat2:
ThomasMagic
Townie
Now that i've nearly finished season 7
I dont mind him as much anymore!!
After seeing his past, its shown a bit more about his history
I dont mind him as much anymore!!
After seeing his past, its shown a bit more about his history
My opinion of Spike in a nutshell:
In S2/3 he couldn't have been more awesome. Pure entertainment value really. Funny, awesome, and complex. His relationship with Drusilla was very interesting - it showed another side to his character without engulfing his character entirely. He was a completely evil bastard, but he was still very human, with human desires, capable of engaging with humans, and enjoyed his current existence very well.
In S4 he was still very entertaining and had lots of potential, but showed signs of badass decay.
S5 was a transitional season for him. He still kept a hold of his entertainment value, but the patheticness was ramped up. Though "Fool for Love" made him more complex, and he was sympathetic in "The Body" - the last time until Chosen he had a motivation that wasn't centred around Buffy.
In S6 he did nothing all season that wasn't to do with Buffy. And most of what he did was emotionally manipulate her, whine that she's using him even though he asked her to, and then tried to rape her when she got fed up of him. And he lost all entertainment value - does anybody remember a single witty line from him? He used to have 4 or 5 an episode in S2, I don't remember a single one in S6. There was also some lovely retconning of his character, such as that awful line in "All the Way".
There was some improvement in S7, but at that point the only way was up. But a massive problem with him was how he simply overwhelmed all the other characters - S7 was "The Buffy and Spike Show", with cameos from the English guy, the lesbian witch and the guy who fixes windows. No matter how well or badly he may be characterised, Spike should under no circumstances be given more screentime than Willow and Xander (I'll let him have more than Giles because he left the main cast already). He is a secondary character, he should not be any more than that. Also, Lies My Parents Told Me woobified his backstory to the point of retconning the entire mythology of the series. And he acted like a jerk to Wood (I'm sorry, but a man's dead mother is something that you only taunt somebody about if you're an evil villain. Oh God, I've just realised - taunting about dead mothers, initially a villain, snarkiness, blonde hair, mummy's boy, leather pants treatment by fandom - Spike turned into Draco Malfoy). See lower down for more on S7 Spike.
I haven't yet seen AtS S5, I'm holding out for some improvement - he started to redeem himself in Chosen, by doing something that wasn't jerkish or entirely centred around Buffy.
I very much agree with you. I feel that the writers liked Spike, and knew he was popular, but didn't actually know what to do with him. For most of S4 he just hung around delivering the odd one-liner. Then the gave him the Buffy-love storyline in S5, which is a waste of potential as I'll explain in a second. But they knew they couldn't have a soulless Spike in the show forever, so they stuck a soul in him at the end of S6. And during S7 it felt like half the time they were ripping off Angel's storyline, and half the time they were trying to avoid that by making the two of them completely different - ie. Angel feels awful about what he's done and wants to make amends, while Spike "doesn't give a piss" about what he's done, making Spike look basically like a jerkish version of Angel.
As for why Spuffy is a waste of potential - well it took a potentially complex character and reduced him to nothing but a character that loves Buffy. Every storyline he had, every decision he made, hell most lines he had, everything about him centred around Buffy. It made his character both very dull and indistinguishable from Spuffy - Spuffy was what defined Spike in the late seasons, therefore if you didn't like Spuffy you couldn't like Spike. Whereas I found it very easy to not like Bangel and still like Angel, because Angel had a life and some motivation outside of Bangel.
There are so many ways that Spike could have turned good, some of them vaguely touched on in S4. The potential for his storyline was incredible - they could have explored so much of what can happen to a soulless creature when he can't kill. When he's completely ostracised from the evil community. Spike started fighting evil for the sake of fighting. If they had explored his relationships with each of the Scoobies, they could have had an interesting storyline where he helps the gang because he genuinely enjoys being around them, and is simply lonely otherwise. Or they could have explored a search for identity - he can't be evil, can't be good. He'd have to find himself first.
But none of that happened. All his motivations, which could have potentially been so layered and complex, were boiled down to "he loves Buffy", and nothing else ('cept for the end of Chosen, which is the first time in 3 years that he showed a shred of independence). I felt that Spuffy engulfed Spike, and ruined his character. And before somebody claims that I'm objecting to a character becoming more complex, I'm not. Spike was a very complex character in S2 and 4, as well as being extremely entertaining. S6 and 7 Spike was a one-dimensional, manipulative, creepy, whiny, jerk. IMO. His entire storyline fits very neatly into the tired old cliche of a "bad boy" turned good from the love of a good woman. Spike in the late seasons was, essentially, a very easy character.
EDIT: Also, after S6 I was sick to my back teeth of James Marsters shirtless. Hey, I think James Marsters is as sexy as the next guy, and seeing him shirtless would be a great treat usually. But S6, and to an extent 7, took it to ridiculous levels. It was as though Spike couldn't dress himself, which I wouldn't actually put past him. And it didn't help that in S6 Spike stopped being sexy and just became creepy. It's insulting to the actor, it's insulting to the character, and it's insulting to us.
In S2/3 he couldn't have been more awesome. Pure entertainment value really. Funny, awesome, and complex. His relationship with Drusilla was very interesting - it showed another side to his character without engulfing his character entirely. He was a completely evil bastard, but he was still very human, with human desires, capable of engaging with humans, and enjoyed his current existence very well.
In S4 he was still very entertaining and had lots of potential, but showed signs of badass decay.
S5 was a transitional season for him. He still kept a hold of his entertainment value, but the patheticness was ramped up. Though "Fool for Love" made him more complex, and he was sympathetic in "The Body" - the last time until Chosen he had a motivation that wasn't centred around Buffy.
In S6 he did nothing all season that wasn't to do with Buffy. And most of what he did was emotionally manipulate her, whine that she's using him even though he asked her to, and then tried to rape her when she got fed up of him. And he lost all entertainment value - does anybody remember a single witty line from him? He used to have 4 or 5 an episode in S2, I don't remember a single one in S6. There was also some lovely retconning of his character, such as that awful line in "All the Way".
There was some improvement in S7, but at that point the only way was up. But a massive problem with him was how he simply overwhelmed all the other characters - S7 was "The Buffy and Spike Show", with cameos from the English guy, the lesbian witch and the guy who fixes windows. No matter how well or badly he may be characterised, Spike should under no circumstances be given more screentime than Willow and Xander (I'll let him have more than Giles because he left the main cast already). He is a secondary character, he should not be any more than that. Also, Lies My Parents Told Me woobified his backstory to the point of retconning the entire mythology of the series. And he acted like a jerk to Wood (I'm sorry, but a man's dead mother is something that you only taunt somebody about if you're an evil villain. Oh God, I've just realised - taunting about dead mothers, initially a villain, snarkiness, blonde hair, mummy's boy, leather pants treatment by fandom - Spike turned into Draco Malfoy). See lower down for more on S7 Spike.
I haven't yet seen AtS S5, I'm holding out for some improvement - he started to redeem himself in Chosen, by doing something that wasn't jerkish or entirely centred around Buffy.
I very much agree with you. I feel that the writers liked Spike, and knew he was popular, but didn't actually know what to do with him. For most of S4 he just hung around delivering the odd one-liner. Then the gave him the Buffy-love storyline in S5, which is a waste of potential as I'll explain in a second. But they knew they couldn't have a soulless Spike in the show forever, so they stuck a soul in him at the end of S6. And during S7 it felt like half the time they were ripping off Angel's storyline, and half the time they were trying to avoid that by making the two of them completely different - ie. Angel feels awful about what he's done and wants to make amends, while Spike "doesn't give a piss" about what he's done, making Spike look basically like a jerkish version of Angel.
As for why Spuffy is a waste of potential - well it took a potentially complex character and reduced him to nothing but a character that loves Buffy. Every storyline he had, every decision he made, hell most lines he had, everything about him centred around Buffy. It made his character both very dull and indistinguishable from Spuffy - Spuffy was what defined Spike in the late seasons, therefore if you didn't like Spuffy you couldn't like Spike. Whereas I found it very easy to not like Bangel and still like Angel, because Angel had a life and some motivation outside of Bangel.
There are so many ways that Spike could have turned good, some of them vaguely touched on in S4. The potential for his storyline was incredible - they could have explored so much of what can happen to a soulless creature when he can't kill. When he's completely ostracised from the evil community. Spike started fighting evil for the sake of fighting. If they had explored his relationships with each of the Scoobies, they could have had an interesting storyline where he helps the gang because he genuinely enjoys being around them, and is simply lonely otherwise. Or they could have explored a search for identity - he can't be evil, can't be good. He'd have to find himself first.
But none of that happened. All his motivations, which could have potentially been so layered and complex, were boiled down to "he loves Buffy", and nothing else ('cept for the end of Chosen, which is the first time in 3 years that he showed a shred of independence). I felt that Spuffy engulfed Spike, and ruined his character. And before somebody claims that I'm objecting to a character becoming more complex, I'm not. Spike was a very complex character in S2 and 4, as well as being extremely entertaining. S6 and 7 Spike was a one-dimensional, manipulative, creepy, whiny, jerk. IMO. His entire storyline fits very neatly into the tired old cliche of a "bad boy" turned good from the love of a good woman. Spike in the late seasons was, essentially, a very easy character.
EDIT: Also, after S6 I was sick to my back teeth of James Marsters shirtless. Hey, I think James Marsters is as sexy as the next guy, and seeing him shirtless would be a great treat usually. But S6, and to an extent 7, took it to ridiculous levels. It was as though Spike couldn't dress himself, which I wouldn't actually put past him. And it didn't help that in S6 Spike stopped being sexy and just became creepy. It's insulting to the actor, it's insulting to the character, and it's insulting to us.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Although I don't agree, I must say - this is an awesome post.
I think Spike was a very complex and enjoyable character turned one-dimensional, annoying and disturbing for nothing that plot purpose. His obsession for Buffy ruined his character, hell, every story-line of him was centred around Buffy.
Humanizing him during s5-6 threatened the mithology of the vampires and the importance of the soul. Think how much "good" was Spike in s2-4 and "In the Dark"!
I also hate the constant comparison (and attempted supremacy) between him and Angel, made by his supporters... he has to win the girl, shanshu, basically all the things involving Angel. For them he's most loveable, good, yada, yada. His constant attempted victory over Angel really grates on me. Can't he live finding his own way to become a good protector of the hopeless?
Humanizing him during s5-6 threatened the mithology of the vampires and the importance of the soul. Think how much "good" was Spike in s2-4 and "In the Dark"!
I also hate the constant comparison (and attempted supremacy) between him and Angel, made by his supporters... he has to win the girl, shanshu, basically all the things involving Angel. For them he's most loveable, good, yada, yada. His constant attempted victory over Angel really grates on me. Can't he live finding his own way to become a good protector of the hopeless?
K
KristenVictoria
Guest
Agreed about the last paragraph. It's part of the reason why I dislike "The Girl in Question."
Can't say I'm one for the rules, so if it gets a good character out of it, I always say, "Screw the mythology!" Plus, the soul things always just rubbed me the wrong way. People can be just as evil as demons, and they all have souls. Warren is the prime example. In fact, if we look at reality and not Buffy, all of the demons are inspired by the evil that exists in people, right? Theoretically, that's why we enjoy them; they appeal to the darker nature in us.
However, the thing that bugs me the most is, the writers did a complete about-face on this issue. In S5 Spike was almost COMPLETELY humanized by the end of the season. It seems the writers had a panic attack while they were planning S6, realized they'd broken their canon, and decided to do some major, sloppy backpedaling. Very annoying for all involved.
Spike is a great character, and it's difficult to find something i don't like!
i would say the black paint on is nails, especially the toes!
it's ridiculous "hey! i'm a big bad! no! don't fight me now, my nails are drying!"
i would say the black paint on is nails, especially the toes!
it's ridiculous "hey! i'm a big bad! no! don't fight me now, my nails are drying!"
white avenger
Spike has black polish on his TOES? When did you notice that?
in season six, i don't know the episode, Buffy goes to see Spike in his krypt, she doesn't knock and seems angry.
Spike has his foot on a tombstone, and black nail polish in his hand.
he tells to Buffy that the nail polish isn't dry so he shouldn't move right now.
it made me so laugh!!!
Spike has his foot on a tombstone, and black nail polish in his hand.
he tells to Buffy that the nail polish isn't dry so he shouldn't move right now.
it made me so laugh!!!
xaphania
Spike/Buffy
Hm, do you mean in Blood Ties (season five)? He's sitting cross-legged on the sarcophagus when Buffy bursts in - but I think he was just painting his fingernails...