Anya's soul

[RoxySilver]

Hello!

I was reading the thread about Xander leaving Anya at the alter and suddenly wondered about Anya going back and forth between being human and demon.

Anya was a demon for 1000 years or so, and clearly loved it. She rants about it all the time, including when being human.
After Xander leaves her, she goes back to being a vengeance demon, but her heart wasn't into it, as Alfrek points out. She then goes postal and kills the guys from the fraternity (sorry if my summary isn't accurate, I need to rewatch the series).

But I can't remember any time we talk about her soul.
How come Angel and Spike are both tortured by the atrocities they commited, and Anya can miss being a vengeance demon when she's human? She isn't haunted, even though we see in Selfless how awful and cruel she was.
And when she actually is a demon, she can not feel compelled by the need to avenge everybody.

Is it a particularity of being a vengeance demon?

Sorry if there is a similar thread somewhere, I couldn't find it...

 

[Blaze]

It is never explicitly said whether they have a soul or not, but I'm assuming they do. I think it is important to understand that unlike most demons, vengeance demons are chosen. And they are chosen based on the human having an affinity for vengeance. All in all, they essentially pick some not so nice humans, or some emotionally damaged humans to become demons, which might explain why they don't care too much about killing because to them it's not about killing, it's about the vengeance.

Also, it makes sense that they wouldn't mind too much about the atrocities, because atrocities are culture dependant. We don't care much if we murder a cow for food, but we couldn't do that to other humans or dogs for example. There might be an adaptation period once someone becomes a vengeance demon, but after years and years I can see how they would change to the point of being barely human, even with a soul. It's like they have their own culture of vengeance.

Another point is that we know vengeance it can be such a powerful emotion that human feelings don't get much in the way. We see that with Willow, she was acting almost like a vengeance demon at the end of s6, but using her own powers instead.

 

[EVIL UU]

Vengeance demons work differently. They keep their human souls, memories, morality and everything else. Vampires are powered by a soul of a demon that enters human body, vengeance demons are powered by a pendant they receive from D'Hoffryn.

Is it a particularity of being a vengeance demon?

No, it's just character development. Anya completely changes her moral system throughout the series, it's probably the best executed personal arc on the show.

 

[Still a Scoobie]

It is never explicitly said whether they have a soul or not, but I'm assuming they do. I think it is important to understand that unlike most demons, vengeance demons are chosen. And they are chosen based on the human having an affinity for vengeance. All in all, they essentially pick some not so nice humans, or some emotionally damaged humans to become demons, which might explain why they don't care too much about killing because to them it's not about killing, it's about the vengeance.

Also, it makes sense that they wouldn't mind too much about the atrocities, because atrocities are culture dependant. We don't care much if we murder a cow for food, but we couldn't do that to other humans or dogs for example. There might be an adaptation period once someone becomes a vengeance demon, but after years and years I can see how they would change to the point of being barely human, even with a soul. It's like they have their own culture of vengeance.

Can't rep you but I agree. I was going to post something similar but was too lazy so thanks 🙂

 

[thetopher]

It's strange I know. A lot of Anya fans take the view that Anya and Anyanka are two seperate individulas, the vengeance demons don't have souls even though they were once human.
Putting that aside for a moment, it doesn't explain why, when she becomes human/regains her soul she doesn't feel the slightest bit of guilt for all the terrible things she did. (From what we see of her 'work', the whole vengeance thing is very arbitrary and cruel.)

Then in 'Selfless' she regains her power but now she feels remorse? 😕
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that she was a horrible person before she met Xander and everybody else, and really wasn't able to feel these emotions.

Or maybe that's the problem when poor writers try and give a purely comedic character some depth.

You may have guessed by now the Anya is my least favourite character that's actually in the credits. 😉

 

[Lyri]

I think the issue stems from the fact that Aud wasn't really a very nice person. She was insanely jealous and when her husband/boyfriend wouldn't do what she said and stop going to the tavern, she turned him into a troll.

Magic like that doesn't just happen, Aud explains her spell to D'Hoffryn, she knows what she's talking about, so it's not a huge assumption to think that this wasn't her first spell.

The things she did as a vengeance demon before she came to Sunnydale, she was relatively detached from it all. There was an air of 'this does't affect me, I'm not involved, therefore, I choose to not feel upset'. She honestly believed she was doing a good thing, I think, by defending the women who's men had abused them and treated them so horribly. She had righteousness on her side. Those men deserved what she did to them.

When Anya lost her powers and became human, she felt what it was like to really be wanted for the first time in her life. Xander loved her, she had friends, albeit reluctant ones, and she was happy. She was included. She saved the world, she helped people, she had her own place in the world that didn't revolve around men and she was a good person. She saw demons from the other side of the coin, saw what demons did to innocent - and maybe not so innocent - people, but she saw that a guy didn't deserve to get his intestines torn out because he got drunk and cheated on his girlfriend at a party. Is he a bastard for doing that? Yes. Does he deserve to die horribly for it? Not really, no.

When Anya went back to being a vengeance demon after 'Hells Bells' she doesn't have the luxury of blind indifference anymore. She remembers all too well what it's like to save people rather than torture them and she feels sick that she's back on the other side of that coin. And she can't deal. The pressure of having to do more and more, to make the spells as awful as she was when she had no remorse resulted in her murdering a houseful of frat boys and she just can't do it anymore.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

Note Anya was SICKENED At what willow was trying to do... she said that willow had gotten past the point of "Vengeance" and into something FAR worse.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Or maybe that's the problem when poor writers try and give a purely comedic character some depth.

Exactly. Anya's character development comes way too late in the show and isn't very lasting. After she becomes human, again, in season 7, she's just back to being old Anya and all that emotional stuff that happened in Selfless goes out the window.

Does Anya have a soul as a vengeance demon? Is it ever said on the show? Because in season 3 when she becomes human again, she begins to have all these feelings and I thought it was because her human soul is back, but unlike Angel, she has no feelings of remorse for what she did, not until season 7.

It's just a result of a poorly written character that was never developed properly. They just want to keep her in the comedic role and hope we don't ask questions. I do like Anya, I think she's funny, but I don't care about her feelings for Xander. I guess it just goes back to the Xader is demon magnet thing.

 

[Xin Rong]

Exactly. Anya's character development comes way too late in the show and isn't very lasting. After she becomes human, again, in season 7, she's just back to being old Anya and all that emotional stuff that happened in Selfless goes out the window.

Does Anya have a soul as a vengeance demon? Is it ever said on the show? Because in season 3 when she becomes human again, she begins to have all these feelings and I thought it was because her human soul is back, but unlike Angel, she has no feelings of remorse for what she did, not until season 7.

It's just a result of a poorly written character that was never developed properly. They just want to keep her in the comedic role and hope we don't ask questions. I do like Anya, I think she's funny, but I don't care about her feelings for Xander. I guess it just goes back to the Xader is demon magnet thing.

Yes D'Hoffryn says that vengeance demons have a soul.

Humans commit evil all the time without guilt, and Anya doesn't seem to think her past actions are wrong, she seems to believe that she was doing the right thing.

 

[Blaze]

Note Anya was SICKENED At what willow was trying to do... she said that willow had gotten past the point of "Vengeance" and into something FAR worse.

Except I don't think she wasn't sickened. Anya was the closest person they had that could understand Willow at that point, Anya knew about vengeance, knew the extent of the issue Willow had. She wasn't sickened, she just knew that they were essentially royally *****.

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------

It's just a result of a poorly written character that was never developed properly. They just want to keep her in the comedic role and hope we don't ask questions. I do like Anya, I think she's funny, but I don't care about her feelings for Xander. I guess it just goes back to the Xader is demon magnet thing.

I actually disagree, I think Anya was one of the best written character. She started out as a bad person, she had many flaws as Aude, and dwelved deeper and deeper in those flaws as a vengeance demon, until she was downright a bad person. That was actually my point, vengeance demon keep their soul, but they don't start out as good people anyhow. And we all know that humans can be just as evil as any demon, without the superpowers. Anya was a comedic role, but under there she was actually a character with a pretty serious tone.

When she goes back to vengeance, we actually notice the difference between her in the Wish, vs her in selfless. And in s7, she grows even more until she becomes a good person, the best version of herself. She's not my favorite, but I think she has good character development.

 

[thetopher]

Except I don't think she wasn't sickened. Anya was the closest person they had that could understand Willow at that point, Anya knew about vengeance, knew the extent of the issue Willow had. She wasn't sickened, she just knew that they were essentially royally *****.

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:57 PM ----------



I actually disagree, I think Anya was one of the best written character. She started out as a bad person, she had many flaws as Aude, and dwelved deeper and deeper in those flaws as a vengeance demon, until she was downright a bad person. That was actually my point, vengeance demon keep their soul, but they don't start out as good people anyhow. And we all know that humans can be just as evil as any demon, without the superpowers. Anya was a comedic role, but under there she was actually a character with a pretty serious tone.

When she goes back to vengeance, we actually notice the difference between her in the Wish, vs her in selfless. And in s7, she grows even more until she becomes a good person, the best version of herself. She's not my favorite, but I think she has good character development.

I really can't agree with this. When I think character development I think Wesley or Spike or Faith or Willow, hell even Buffy.
Anya arguably changes the least out of any main character on either show. She acts pretty much the same in S4, 5 and 6. Yeah, she changes a little when she becomes a vengeance demon again- but that's reverse character, development- it was lazy writing. 🙁
And it doesn'y even stick, when she goes back to being human after 'Selfless' she's still tactless, ultimately selfish and can't really see things from anybody's point of view but her own. (Well, maybe Xander- I think she always genuinely cared about him)
I didn't even really understand why she stayed in Sunnydale in S7, apart from Xander, and maybe a small freindship with Willow, she had zero ties there.

 

[RoxySilver]

I actually disagree, I think Anya was one of the best written character. She started out as a bad person, she had many flaws as Aude, and dwelved deeper and deeper in those flaws as a vengeance demon, until she was downright a bad person. That was actually my point, vengeance demon keep their soul, but they don't start out as good people anyhow. And we all know that humans can be just as evil as any demon, without the superpowers. Anya was a comedic role, but under there she was actually a character with a pretty serious tone.

When she goes back to vengeance, we actually notice the difference between her in the Wish, vs her in selfless. And in s7, she grows even more until she becomes a good person, the best version of herself. She's not my favorite, but I think she has good character development.

I didn't know vengeance demons keep their souls, thanks for the precision!

I really agree with you, I think she has a great development, but it is sometimes confusing. As Anya often says herself, she struggles with those human feelings, so maybe it is actually good writing that we struggle to sometimes understand her.

The entire Buffy series is dedicated to identity, and the quest of oneself. "Who are you", right? Anya goes through this repeatedly, as a human, as a demon and as a human again.
I'm just realizing how I laughed at her growing up, her reactions misplaced comments, just like the other characters laugh at her. Beneath the comedy, there is indeed a very serious tone that I never really looked carefully at, curiously.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I really can't agree with this. When I think character development I think Wesley or Spike or Faith or Willow, hell even Buffy.
Anya arguably changes the least out of any main character on either show. She acts pretty much the same in S4, 5 and 6. Yeah, she changes a little when she becomes a vengeance demon again- but that's reverse character, development- it was lazy writing. 🙁
And it doesn'y even stick, when she goes back to being human after 'Selfless' she's still tactless, ultimately selfish and can't really see things from anybody's point of view but her own. (Well, maybe Xander- I think she always genuinely cared about him)
I didn't even really understand why she stayed in Sunnydale in S7, apart from Xander, and maybe a small freindship with Willow, she had zero ties there.

I completely agree. When compared to the rest of the cast Anya has very little character development. Aside from her emotions in the Body, she is pretty much the same throughout seasons 4,5,6 until Hells Bells. It's all about money and Xander. One episode is the last season, which I only think is there to give a reason to keep her on the show, is not good character development, it's a failure on the writers part. And I also think she goes back to her old self after Selfless. I can't remember but does she say sorry to that guy demon that crashes her wedding for revenge? Point being it's not til the end of season 6 or maybe in 7 that she begins to feel remorse.