Anybody think the First Evil should be featured on Angel

[Angelique]

Aren't W&H representing the First anyway? Remember in S2, when Angel got on the lift with Holland to go to the Home Office H. mentioned that W&H has always been there in some form.

 

[Allycat]

Yeah, but that doesn't exactly mean, that they were the first evil. Hell, we don't even know wether W&H is all evil, and always was. In fact, the vagueness of the terms "good" and "evil" assures that it can turn and twist anyway around.

 

[Angelique]

that's why I wrote "representing the First". Doesn't mean they are the First.

 

[Allycat]

Extensive Knowledge of Buffy S7 and the B/A universe in general is needed for the following theory.

Ok then you're possibly right, but still my main problem lies in the vageuness of the term "evil" when is something "evil" and when "good"? In fact don't we all ever do things that can be considered "evil"? So that means that everbody is infact "evil" or semi-"evil" ... but everybody also does "good" things.

Adam acted friendly to his fellow creations, which can be considered a form of "good". Glory acted compassionate towards Dawn, which was "good". Dru and Spike were in love, which is a form of "good". Angelus loved both Dru and Darla and since love is something "good", he has something "good" in him too. Darla killed herself because she knew she was "evil" and couldn't properly raise Connor, which can also be considerd " good". the Mayor had fatherly love for Faith, again that's "good". All people, who were considered "evil" doing "good" so they're all semi-"good" and semi-"evil".

And for the "good" guys. Faith is the first example, she was a girl, who fought the "good" fight, but she was lured to the "evil" side. This happened to Willow too in S6. Xander didn't tell Buffy in S2 that Willow was trying to restore Angel's soul, which can be considered "evil". Giles killed Ben in the Gift, though it was smart, it was also "evil". Buffy said she wouldn't let anybody near Dawn if the ritual would have been started and her selfish thought could have destroyed the world, not the best example, but selfishness is indeed a (tricky) form of "evil". Besides she does some shoplifting with Faith in 3.14 "Bad Girls" consider that "evil".

In the End it seems as though everything alive is semi-"evil" and semi-"good", so if you would really want to destroy either "good" or "evil" that would require you to destroy the whole universe and all other dimensions, you would have to destroy everything. So does Buffy really want to stop the First Evil, life itself? And does Angel want to stop the ongoing batle between "good" and "evil"?

So do we want to have "evil" eradictated through the destruction of everything ?

 

[Shimmer]

Originally posted by Allycat

Ok then you're possibly right, but still my main problem lies in the vageuness of the term "evil" when is something "evil" and when "good"? In fact don't we all ever do things that can be considered "evil"? So that means that everbody is infact "evil" or semi-"evil" ... but everybody also does "good" things.

Good and evil aren't clearly defined even on Buffy/Angel there are the grey areas which comes from human nature

Adam acted friendly to his fellow creations, which can be considered a form of "good".

We are acting under a human impression of the terms good and evil which might not be right but they are the only ones we have and thus Adam's friendliness was false due to his actions. Also Adam by definition was more motivated by logic and a need to gain information rather than any sort of compassion when being friendly. It's not the act it's the motivation being the act that defines it's nature.


Glory acted compassionate towards Dawn, which was "good".

Again false compassion from a human point of view- she needed Dawn to help herself it's not the same as being compassionate towards Dawn for Dawn's sake


Dru and Spike were in love, which is a form of "good". Angelus loved both Dru and Darla and since love is something "good", he has something "good" in him too.

Angelus and Darla were never in what human's can consider love. Angel said as much in S2 Epiphany. Spike and Drusilla are the same. The feelings were left over from there humanity but it was twisted and was more like obsession than love

Darla killed herself because she knew she was "evil" and couldn't properly raise Connor, which can also be considerd " good".

Those episodes state that she is being influenced by Connor's soul so they are not the vampire Darla's feelings or actions completely

the Mayor had fatherly love for Faith, again that's "good".

This one has something too it- I think that the Mayor really did care for Faith but then he was human until he changed so it can be explained by residual human emotion that was buried deep

All people, who were considered "evil" doing "good" so they're all semi-"good" and semi-"evil".

As you can see the motive behind the action is not good therefore the action itself can't truely be considered good with the exception of the mayor most had evil motives or the action itself was forced or warped

I'll reply to the rest of you're post later

 

[Allycat]

Originally posted by Shimmer

No need to hurry with reviewing the rest of the theorie yet, I still have some reviewing to do on your review (is anybody still following me?)

My main problem lies in the vagueness of the term "evil" when is something "evil" and when "good"? In fact don't we all ever do things that can be considered "evil"? So that means that everbody is in fact "evil" or semi-"evil" ... but everybody also does "good" things.

"Good" and "evil" aren't clearly defined even on Buffy/Angel there are the grey areas which comes from human nature.

"Good" and "Evil" do NOT nescisarily come from human kind, neither do they come from the possesion of souls. I already gave some examples of demon's being "good" and humans being "evil", so I won't do that again! But this proves every living being (wether human or demon, wether with or without a soul) can be "good" or "evil".

Adam acted friendly to his fellow creations, which can be considered a form of "good".

We are acting under a human impression of the terms "good and "evil" which might not be right but they are the only ones we have and thus Adam's friendliness was false due to his actions. Also Adam by definition was more motivated by logic and a need to gain information rather than any sort of compassion when being friendly. It's not the act it's the motivation being the act that defines it's nature.

I agree on the fact, that your motivation decides wether your "good" or "evil". And Adam is one of the few, I haven't found any solid prove of being "good".

Glory acted compassionate towards Dawn, which was "good".

Again false compassion from a human point of view- she needed Dawn to help herself it's not the same as being compassionate towards Dawn for Dawn's sake

Glory did NOT have to be compassionate towards Dawn during the time of 5.22 "the Gift", like Dawn could ever escape again or something!?! So it was not for her, but for Dawn's sake. Besides her motives weren't that bad at all, she just wanted to go home, and though home might have been a hell dimension, it's not very unusual. And though it was going to destroy the earth (well that's "evil" allright) the thing is, she was strong in her home place, two of her friends turned on her and locked her away in the head of a silly human on Earth! Having this in mind, it doesn't sound very strange to me, that when she gets a chance to get back home she'll take it at any cost!

Dru and Spike were in love, which is a form of "good". Angelus loved both Dru and Darla and since love is something "good", he has something "good" in him too.

Angelus and Darla were never in what human's can consider love. Angel said as much in S2 Epiphany. Spike and Drusilla are the same. The feelings were left over from there humanity but it was twisted and was more like obsession than love

It was pointed out several times during the series and in interviews with both cast and crew, that vampires do experience love.

Darla killed herself because she knew she was "evil" and couldn't properly raise Connor, which can also be considerd " good".

Those episodes state that she is being influenced by Connor's soul so they are not the vampire Darla's feelings or actions completely.

Maybe not completly, but partially they are and that makes her semi-"good".

the Mayor had fatherly love for Faith, again that's "good".

This one has something too it- I think that the Mayor really did care for Faith but then he was human until he changed so it can be explained by residual human emotion that was buried deep.

This proves the fact, that there is some strong presence of grey!

All people, who were considered "evil" doing "good" so they're all semi-"good" and semi-"evil".

As you can see the motive behind the action is not good therefore the action itself can't truely be considered good with the exception of the mayor most had evil motives or the action itself was forced or warped.

As you can see the motives behind the actions ARE good (except for Adam, but I'll figure something)

 

[Angelique]

Ok, there is a tiny demon in each and everyone of us (remember Angel arriving at the Home Office/ back on the surface of earth?!)
And I feel that, what you describe as good in the demons can be better defined as their weaknesses and most likely, if someone is evil the weakness brings out the better part and in good and honest people is brings out the bad side.
Simple example: the mayor and his weakness for Faith and Willow and her weakness/ love for Tara.

 

[Allycat]

This still supports my theory, that there is both "good" and "evil" in all of us, and thus to eradictate "evil" one is required to destroy everything!

 

[Slycat]

Ah the First Evil, represented by the one person Angel fierd (and probably still does) Jenni Calendar.

I always loved that episode (well except for the buffy/angel mushy mushy at the end 😀).

But, thinking about it, i've read in other threads here Wesley is ment to experience his darker side....could it be that the First Evil takes over him?

 

[Buffy Ann Summers]

I'm sorry... I never saw season 1 or 2. What's this first evil?

 

[Allycat]

That's kinda what we are trying to figure out!