Well yeah he never goes straight for the kill. He makes the whole situation some kind of art for him. Yeah I don't think he would allow s6 Buffy to use him...sorry to say this, no offense for Spike fans, but I can't see Angelus following Buffy around telling her how much he is obsessed with her...
Anyway, he would play with Buffy's mind and that would leave her into a much worse condition than she was already. If they got physical in the end he would turn her IMO.I think deep inside he always wanted to sire her, make her the thing she hates the most.
And I think Angel is Liam with Angelus memories, and of course add all the experiences he gained after the re ensouling. He has a demon inside him but his voice is very small compared to the soul's commands.
Spike's obsession was based on lust and, arguably, love (I know this is debatable on the season 5-6 level but I do think he loved her in his own crazy way even in season 5). Angelus's obsession was based on hatred, so it definitely would have played out totally differently. He hated her for making him, as Angel, feel human. Angelus is inhumanly evil. Buffy wouldn't want a physical relationship with him. I agree also that he would be more likely to turn her than kill her, if he could (though I think in the end she'd have staked his@$$ 😉 ).
EleftheriaAngelus was evil yeah...but he had many human weaknesses IMO.And I donn't think s6 Buffy cared about whom she was sleeping with...she needed a toy.Spike accepted that at first.Angelus wouldn't.That's what I say.
Spike's obsession was based on lust and, arguably, love (I know this is debatable on the season 5-6 level but I do think he loved her in his own crazy way even in season 5). Angelus's obsession was based on hatred, so it definitely would have played out totally differently. He hated her for making him, as Angel, feel human. Angelus is inhumanly evil. Buffy wouldn't want a physical relationship with him. I agree also that he would be more likely to turn her than kill her, if he could (though I think in the end she'd have staked his@$$ 😉 ).
Eleftheria agrees: Angelus was evil yeah...but he had many human weaknesses IMO.And I donn't think s6 Buffy cared about whom she was sleeping with...she needed a toy.Spike accepted that at first.Angelus wouldn't.That's what I say.
I very much disagree with this. She chose Spike for a lot of unhealthy reasons, but she very specifically chose him. I don't think it was a toy she was looking for at all.
She's a hottie? So looks is everything they had. That's why I don't like Spuffy, I mean, that is one of the reasons. It was all about hot rough sex. Bangel had something more. He saw her, he saw her deep inside. It wasn't physical only. They were attracted to each other because they felt something inside of them.
My point, which I think you're ignoring intentionally, PB, was that if all Buffy wanted was a sex toy, she could have found one she didn't hate. She chose Spike deliberately, because he was the only person she could stand to be around when they brought her back. She said that herself. There was much more to what went on with them than looks; actually, I think looks had very little to do with it. But if you're a chick who just wants to get laid, good looks help. If that was all she was looking for she could have found it in a hundred different places.
By the end of Buffy, Spike knew her better than anyone. A lot better than Angel ever did (since you brought up the comparison).
I love angelus. Hes halarious.... I liked angel and all, but he was just not even close to as amusing as angelus. I love passion, its sad, but hes just so amusing.
Sorry, but I just can't understand you and your theory. My theory of love, needing someone by your side, passion and everything that should make our life better has nothing to do with Spuffy.
Well since this is fiction, and non of us know what it would feel like to be dead, and be free, and at peace, and then brought back to something you feel like you escaped.... we probably wont know why she needed to do SOMETHING just to feel, to feel anything. Whe spike was chosen, i dont know, but I like spike, I liked him from the begining, i thought it was funny, and a good part of the show. I do like them together, and I think Spike infact really cared about her, he went through hell to try and be with her.
Yeah, we don't know what she felt. We only know what we saw. And that's all true, Spike did cared about her, he probably did loved her, I'm not saying he didn't, but I just can't see how someone can think that kind of relathionship is good. I'm not judging anyone or something like that, it's just me. For girl who grew up with Disney Spuffy seems like Darth Vader became president of Disney company and tried to make a movie.
Well, a lot of people have some pretty negative things to say about Disney...lol...my own idea of what a relationship is did not come from Disney, fortunately.
Hardly anyone thinks the season 6 Spuffy relationship was healthy. Do they? I don't and I'm as big a fan of Spuffy as you can find. The discussion was originally about what it would have been like if Buffy had ended up with Angelus instead of Spike in season 6. Neither of those would have been based on love (from her anyway). Someone said that she just wanted a sex toy and Spike was available. I said there was more to her choice than that. I didn't say it was because she loved him; actually, it was in part because she hated him and that season was largely about her own self-loathing and darkness. Either way I guess it's moved way, way off the original topic 😉
The one episode I find Angelus extremely sexy and extremely scary at the same time, is Passion. David was amazing with that look on his face. I just watched the scene where he watches her sleeping and If i didn't know how it would end...I would be screaming "Buffy wake up".
His psychology troubles me. He had many chances to kill her and Passion was one of them. He didn't. That's why I am convinced he had a bigger plan for her. Not just torture. He certainly didn't love her, Angel loves her, but I think he was obsessed. He hated what she did to Angel(humanise him in every way) but I think she is his dark desire somehow.
I'm thinking more and more that it was never that clear cut.
*S8 spoilers*
With the whole Twangel thing, it seems to me that the line between Angel and Angelus is indeed blurry at best. Maybe his denial/split personality/schizophrenia is finally collapsing, and he's accepted by now, that Angel IS Angelus, that the soul does not make the man. After all, they both seem to pretty much hate the world and care only to go get what they want. Angelus merely doesn't make the pretense of doing it for a greater purpose than his own satisfaction.
Come to think of it, that may be the point why Angel calls Buffy "Buff". He's stopped reserving that nickname for the Angelus persona.
Also remember his "No, actually..." about Willow vs. Vamp!Willow in Doppelgangland when he starts correcting Buffy's assumption that the vampire's personality has nothing to do with the human one. That may have been a HUGE Freudian slip.
Aside from all this, back to the core question... Bangelus in S6 could never have worked, except as a very efficient means of suicide by (evil) cop. Angelus is incapable even of the pretense of love. He would gleefully have destroyed Buffy completely (first emotionally, and then physically), enjoyed every minute of it, and danced laughing on her grave afterwards.
Even an Initiative chip wouldn't have changed it. Angelus was ever a mastermind of torture, not only physical, but much, much more psychological. Not being able to get his hands dirty wouldn't have incapacitated him nearly as much as it did Spike, who had always been straightforward and blatantly physical. William the Bloody is a predatory fighter, Angelus an artist of pain - both get people killed by the dozen, but their "style" in it could hardly have been any more different.
---------- Post added at 09:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------
Suicidal S6 Buffy, yeah, straight on, Angelus would have demolished her, but if he began another torture campaign, the Scoobies would have ousted him...
Who could have done it, though? Only one with the power to stop Angelus would have been Willow, and I'm not sure if she'd have cared that much.
"Yeah, gonna stop the psycho killer, Buff. Just let me make a quick visit to Rack's first."
*comes back three days later with swollen crackwhore eyes to find Dawn, Tara, and Xander's lifeless corpses arranged as abstract concept art in Buffy's livingroom* "Oops!"
It would've been interesting to see Angelus with a chip. Where Spike began a slow evolution towards being a better man even without a soul once his capacity for violence was removed, that would never, ever have happened with Angelus. He'd have been filled with rage, and I think his psychological torture would have been that much more hard core to make up for the fact that he couldn't physically hurt anyone.
It is interesting how, of all the vampires we actually got to know, Angel and Angelus seem to have the least in common. You could see how Angelus was an extension of Liam. Take an insensitive, womanizing, selfish boy and inject an evil demon and Angelus makes sense. But where did Angel come from? It really doesn't make any sense. You can see the poet and lover in Spike; the crazy woman in Drusilla; the plotter in Darla; the psychologist in that guy Buffy went to high school with in Conversations with Dead People. They all have traces of their old personalities, except Angel. It's not the soul, because though the soul changes Spike at first (as he adjusts to it), by Angel S5 he's basically his old self again, just fighting for good because it's good instead of because he can't fight for anything else. Angel is nothing like Liam.
Angel is not much like Liam, but I'm seeing more and more of Angelus in him.
(Spoiler tags are S8 info)
Angel has lied to Buffy right from the start in "Angel" - yes, it's most likely due to retcon, but retcon made it irrefutably canon that "I never fed on a human since that day" is a pretty big one. Hiding your crimes, a sign of remorse? More the sign of a skilled liar and manipulator. Check.
Angelus in Becoming wants to end the world by sending it to hell. Angel, in S8, seems pretty nochalant, at the very least, to have humanity snuff it as long as he gets cookies.
Check.
Angelus sees himself as an artist of torture, with his victims pawns at best, canvas on which to paint exquisite pain at worst. Angel is always sure he knows what's best for others, so me makes decisions over their heads and just informs them of how it'll be going - "my way or the highway." Superiority complex - Check.
Angelus has a mother figure - a lithe, lively blonde vampire - who defines a lot of his identity, and can make or break him (as WA said in another thread, being spurned by a disgusted Darla has a lot to do with decades of depression ensuing). Angel has a savior/nurture figure - a lithe, lively blonde vampire Slayer - who defines his identity totally. Dependency issues to a certain "type" of woman - Check.
Liam does every wench he can get his hand on, Angelus has sex with Dru parallel to Darla (plus the odd rape victim here and there)... and Angel loses Cordy, goes in for a quick kiss and a cookie recipe with Buffy mere days later, then sleeps with Nina for a while before deciding she has to leave, and then
is all soulmatey-destiny with Buffy again
. Dislike of monogamy - Check.
I'm really starting to wonder if the main cause of Angel's depressive brooding is not remorse over what he did pre-soul, but remorse for not having the outlet for his frustration anymore... and he compensates by going borderline psychotic, constructing himself a black-and-white split personality to cope with the stress of it all. Angel has been cursed with a conscience he never wanted - and his depression may well be, for the most part, pent-up rage at "the world that did him wrong". The moment he can lash out at the world again and vent off his rage without having to compromise his "tragic hero" self-image (Jasmine, Wesley, Lindsey,
and above all, the whole Twilight stunt
), souled Angel does so with no more compunctions than unsouled Angelus.
dan k agrees: Angelus making Buffy crazy like he did with Dru would have been interesting. I wonder what he would have done?
Well I guess he would kill all of her friends,her mom,Giles one by one, slowly, painfully in a special way. In the end she wouldn't have the emotional strength to confront him and even if she did, I think Angelus would not kill her in the end. He would turn her. We all know how disgusted Buffy was in "Nightmares" when she discovered that her worst nightmare(being a vampire herself) came true. I think Angelus knows that.
I just want to say a comment about sth InsaneMystic said. In "Angel" , it was still the 1st season of Buffy, Joss never knew if they were going for a second season and of course noone could imagine a spin-off series for the character Angel and his past and future battles. So the "i've never fed on a human soul..." is correct at that moment cause that was the script. I know you see the story itself but we can't ignore the fact that, at that moment the script was exactly what Angel said.
I love the character of Angelus he is soooo much funnier than Angel. I prefer Angel to be Angelus and evil it's so much better than him being soppy and broody all of the time.
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