April 24-30 Episode Discussion led by LoveLoveLovix

[LoveLoveLovix]

Okay, so before I even GET into my topic, I want to post a disclaimer: This is purely in the show. Not for real life. This show is FICTION and so no "I'm right, you're wrong." Thank you.

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That said, the topic I want to discuss is (drumroll, please) What does religion mean in the Buffyverse? Cause truth be told, it's something that's been bugging me for a while. If a vampire is Islamic will a cross still burn? Can Willow really be Wiccan and Jewish at the same time, especially considering the two religions contradict each other so thoroughly? What is the deal with Heaven versus a million bazillion different hell dimensions? Is Glory someone you would want to worship?

Also, do you think that the way different religions were portrayed is okay, considering the show is obviously fiction? Or do you think that even with a fantasy plot, religion should have been truly shown? Can you see a religion being made especially for the show, as some series have done?

Can't wait to hear everyone's opinions! Hope my topic isn't too boring!

Episodes to Review: Witch, Bewitched, bothered, and Bewildered, Bargaining, Once More With Feeling, a lot more you can likely guess.

 

[Icarium]

Can Willow really be Wiccan and Jewish at the same time, especially considering the two religions contradict each other so thoroughly?

I really don't think Willow is a Wiccan. In the show wicca is no more than a synonym for a witch. It's common for Tara in particular to be Wiccan in the religious sense in fanfiction but I don't really see that in the show. She says "Oh, my God!", not "Oh, my Goddess", for instance.

What is the deal with Heaven versus a million bazillion different hell dimensions?

Actually there are many heavenly dimension too (from Tabula Rasa):

TARA: It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions. All we know is that ... it was a good place and she was happy there.

What does religion mean in the Buffyverse?

Nothing, really. I think there is a grand total of one important character that expresses any interest whatsoever in religion and that's Riley who goes to church but that seems mostly like a plot device to put him in the church scene in "Who Are You".

 

[The Unspoken]

Interesting topic.

If a vampire is Islamic will a cross still burn?

This has to do with traditional vampire lore, which Joss (and a lot of other vampire fiction) borrowed from. I imagine this bit of vampire lower exists probably because Christianity was the predominant religion in the western world when people started believing in vampires in that region. I doubt that all of the vampires on the show on which a cross and holy water were used were Christian. It's a fixed trait, similar to their inability to enter a house uninvited.

Can Willow really be Wiccan and Jewish at the same time, especially considering the two religions contradict each other so thoroughly?

Apparently so, since she has no trouble casting spells and invoking many a spirit or deity while doing so. The ability to cast spells in the Buffyverse doesn't seem to be dependent on practicing and honoring any Wiccan customs and traditions. I'm sure being Jewish is not even a blimp on the radar seeing as how people routinely use magic to do evil. It's a free-for-all.

Also, do you think that the way different religions were portrayed is okay, considering the show is obviously fiction? Or do you think that even with a fantasy plot, religion should have been truly shown? Can you see a religion being made especially for the show, as some series have done?

Well, you could argue that the supernatural as depicted on the show puts somewhat of a dent in religions being 'real' in the Buffyverse, which is maybe a reason religion wasn't focused on more. This aspect never bothered me though.

 

[Doppelgang]

Also, do you think that the way different religions were portrayed is okay, considering the show is obviously fiction? Or do you think that even with a fantasy plot, religion should have been truly shown? Can you see a religion being made especially for the show, as some series have done?

There are only a few moments where religion crops up in Buffy, I think there is one episode where Buffy was speaking to a nun I think in season 6. There was Willow being worried if her Jewish parents were to see the cross in her room in S1 or S2. There was the Riley church episode where the vampires were trying to face their fears of the cross inspired by Adam by taking people hostage in a church.

On the whole I think Joss tried to avoid any of the organised religions having much influence on the show, including Christianity, although I'm sure some of the metaphors, morals and stories are influenced by his own background which I would imagine is Christian although I'm not sure of this. I think this was not accidental, but a definite strategy by Joss as he wanted the characters to develop their own moral awareness of how to live and how to be a good person separate from what organised religions have to say.

You could argue this makes the show slightly unrealistic, but I think its in tune with the times here. It's not like religion, in the sense of rituals and traditions doesn't crop up, but in line with it being a fantasy programme, I think Joss tries to some extent to make a religion out of the concept of the slayer as going back really far explored in restless originally and then explored further in Get it Done. Then on the other side in season 7 you have the first evil, so I think he created a kind of religious battle here between good and evil, but it is a religion created within the show different from organised religions as we know them, and a bit more, actually like a tribal understanding of religion.

 

[LoveLoveLovix]

I really don't think Willow is a Wiccan. In the show wicca is no more than a synonym for a witch. It's common for Tara in particular to be Wiccan in the religious sense in fanfiction but I don't really see that in the show. She says "Oh, my God!", not "Oh, my Goddess", for instance.

I'm Eclectic Neo-Pagan, and I still say "Oh my God!" It's a combination of the fact that that's what everyone else says and also that a lot of Pagan religions (including Wicca) have both a god and a goddess.

TARA: It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions. All we know is that ... it was a good place and she was happy there.

Thanks for catching that... I actually meant to put " blah blah large number heavens versus blah blah large number hells."

This has to do with traditional vampire lore, which Joss (and a lot of other vampire fiction) borrowed from. I imagine this bit of vampire lower exists probably because Christianity was the predominant religion in the western world when people started believing in vampires in that region. I doubt that all of the vampires on the show on which a cross and holy water were used were Christian. It's a fixed trait, similar to their inability to enter a house uninvited.

I know it's based on myths... it makes me wonder, though, if that means a Star of David, an ankh, a lotus flower, or some other kind of religious symbol embodied, would burn.

I'm sure being Jewish is not even a blimp on the radar seeing as how people routinely use magic to do evil. It's a free-for-all.

I just totally imagined some navy guy with one of those animated radars saying, "Holy crap! A BLIMP!" Please forgive my nitpicking. 😛

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Willow does say "goddess" a lot in season 8 so maybe she really has gone over more to the wiccan side and abandoned her heritage a bit. But of course, the very possibility that there are witches who do magic and can "inherit" a talent to do so is directly contradictory to the foundation of Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Because of all this, I don't really know if someone who is very religious in the strictest sense would be comfortable watching Buffy. I don't have any close friends and family who are so religious that they wouldn't consider delving into fantasy worlds such as this but I imagine that the hesitation does exist.

Speaking from my own experience though, I can say that a when a religious person (on any level) does decide to watch something like Buffy, we do have to put aside that which we were taught and enjoy the story in spite of the obvious contradictions. I am not strictly observant by any means but there are many customs and traditions that I follow that don't have a place in the Buffyverse, and vice versa. But that hasn't stopped me from being able to make a place for both in my heart.

I think if Joss tried to tackle the issue of religion in a world where there are demons and magic and lots of hells and heavens, it would probably be a sloppy mess and result in a lot of backpedaling and apologizing at the expense of the story.

 

[LoveLoveLovix]

Maybe I'm odd, but even though I can enjoy the story, the contradictions just bug me. Like a mosquito that isn't trying to use you as nom-noms, but is obviously there, in the room.

My favorite television show actually created it's own religion specifically for the 'verse. Despite the fact that none of the characters actually seem to actively practice religion in Buffy, I think I would have liked to either see this happen, where there were fiction religions rather than fictionalized religions. Of course, that also brings up taking some of the realism away.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

There is a scene in a church where a nun sees Angel and says, "We don't get your kind in here very often", so it appears that a religious person is capable of some sort of supernatural perception. (BTW, does anyone know which episode that is? It's been bugging me.) There is the priest who is killed by the Chumash Indian spirit. Then there is Caleb. The message here is that those in subservient positions in religion are capable, those in more senior positions are not and the top people like Caleb are totally evil. This seems to run parallel with what I have seen in real life.

I have read the entire Bible cover to cover, so I am familiar with the basics. As for Willow being Jewish, this is more a cultural background than a religion for her. In fact, (and don't take this as criticism in any way) the Jewish religion is a system of animal sacrifices (with some grain, flour, wine on accasion) as defined in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. It is now a defunct religion - no one sacrifices bulls or rams at a central temple anymore. I mention this because Willow sacrificed a deer to bring Buffy back from the dead, but this was clearly Wiccan. Judaism is largely cultural now - if you identify yourself as Jewish, you are. According to Jewish law, if your mother was Jewish, so are you. Practitioners of a religion are defined by beliefs and practices and there is no indication of Willow being Jewish in either sense. Her practices are certainly Wiccan and she identifies with Wicca, so that makes her a de facto Wiccan.