Are souls the same for everyone?

[Silverspike]

Sorry, thats not how I saw it at all I'm afraid. But then now I think you can see what I mean about the whole soul issue being complicated. 🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Sorry, thats not how I saw it at all I'm afraid.

That's not surprising at all.

 

[Silverspike]

How so? I have to admit I don't seem to be the only one though. 🙂

 

[Blaze]

I can't imagine a demon regretting crimes - Angelus doesn't. I can't see a soul preventing crimes - murders and atrocities everywhere. So if we made it a equilateral triangle...person(ality) would be the apex and dark/demon and light/soul would be base corners. Acute and obtuse could actually explain a lot.

First off, great post. This part especially seems to make a lot of sense. And if we're comparing the demon as the dark equivalent to the soul in a way, it makes sense that the soul is just the same for everyone. Like, the demon is the same for everyone, but both are strongly influenced by personality. It's just one part of the puzzle, the puzzle will fit differently for different people, but what written on the puzzle spells the same thing.

I'm not so sure I understood the question, anyway seeing that having a soul doesn't necessarily mean being 'good', I'd say that or souls are not the same for everyone - so there is the 'good' soul and the 'bad' one, or they ARE the same but they are affected by the different personalities.

I think the reason some people do good or bad with the soul is influenced by the personality more than anything else. If we look at Darla and Connor, they shared a soul, yet Darla was very different that how Connor is. So I guess the way I see it is a bit more akin to your second point, where souls are the same and affected by different personalities. It seems to make more sense when we look at Connor and Darla. It also makes sense with Spike and Angel, and how throughout everything they maintain their personality, soul or no soul.


@Mr. Pole interesting theory you got there. I don't agree though, all the things you mentioned like the soul still being buried in the vamps doesn't make much sense to me. The reason Harmony and Spike were the way they were was just because of personality, and in the case of Spike conditioning from the chip also. In the show, it's stated clearly that the soul is returned to Angel and Spike. I really don't see how it is just a metaphor, you literally see the soul go in. You see where the soul is contained. I think that memories and personalities are attached to the body, not the soul.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

@Mr. Pole you literally see the soul go in.

You literally see SOMETHING go in.. something that the characters, which are fallible, say is the soul. (but when drugged Angel also acts as though he LOST his soul, when it is fact still there, but.. ) Let me ask you this.. can a human being lose their soul? Was Warren soul-free?

 

[Silverspike]

Warren wasn't a vampire though.

That child in AtS was soul free though wasn't he?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Warren wasn't a vampire though.

I didn't ask if he was a vampire. Just if it was considered if he had a soul or not.

That child in AtS was soul free though wasn't he?

But this will work. Could they have re-ensouled the boy? Or is it only vampires souls that drift in the either? Do demons have souls? because Clem was a pretty nice guy (unless you are a kitten but if you were a kitten its highly unlikely you would be on here typing so my case still stands) but we see some 'good' demons and some 'bad' demons.

I think using/not using the soul makes alot more sense (to me at least) than losing it. Because then you have the whole, how do you lose it, who all can lose it? where does it go? Like you said earlier- alot of questions.

 

[white avenger]

This is the proverbial can of worms that Joss opened when he decided to make Angel, not just a vampire, but the "one vampire in all the world," maybe so that he could be more of a match for the "one girl in all the world," Buffy. It would certainly be an easy way to explain their developing relationship. Maybe the problem was that Joss never really had in mind exactly what a soul was, or what it was supposed to be. Possibly if, instead of having the Gypsies curse Angel with a soul, they had given him a conscience and a sense of guilt, which seems to just about be the definition of a soul in the Whedonverse, it would have worked out better.

It's the same as the "one moment of true happiness" clause, which also makes no sense whatsoever, but that's not part of the subject here.

As for whether the soul is the same for everyone, it's really hard to say, having only Spike and Angel to serve as examples, since both Liam and William were basically decent men. If there had been a former serial killer or pedophile vampire who had his soul returned, then we would have been able to see if the mere presence of a soul in a vampire somehow filled them with an overpowering sense of guilt and a strong desire to become a champion in the fight between good and evil.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

This is the proverbial can of worms that Joss opened when he decided to make Angel, not just a vampire, but the "one vampire in all the world," maybe so that he could be more of a match for the "one girl in all the world," Buffy. It would certainly be an easy way to explain their developing relationship. Maybe the problem was that Joss never really had in mind exactly what a soul was, or what it was supposed to be.

That's exactly it. And to expand on the "one vampire in all the world" I dont think he ever planned that there would be another instance of one with a soul. So he didnt really bother thinking it through. Morever, he never PLANNED Angel to stick around past season two, so again, dont think he really thought about it.

If there had been a former serial killer or pedophile vampire who had his soul returned, then we would have been able to see if the mere presence of a soul in a vampire somehow filled them with an overpowering sense of guilt and a strong desire to become a champion in the fight between good and evil.

That's why I mentioned Warren. Because there are plenty of humans as you described which have a soul, and they are still 'monsters' so if it were a serial killer vampire that was re-ensouled I don't see where the soul would impair his ability(?) to be a serial killer. Or, you know, cure him of his serial killer proclivities.

 

[Blaze]

I think using/not using the soul makes alot more sense (to me at least) than losing it. Because then you have the whole, how do you lose it, who all can lose it? where does it go? Like you said earlier- alot of questions.

But then what dictates if you use it or don't use it. How could a spell make you use it? Why wouldn't Angelus just decide to use it when he "loses" it for the second time.

It was never stated if Warren had a soul or not, but we know some humans don't have one. I fail to see how that's an argument towards your point. To my knowledge, Warren did have a soul, but he had one shitty personality. Personality dictates what you do with that soul. Warren just decided to to evil on his own accord, in that sense ya, I think you can ignore the soul. Personality overpowers it in a sense, almost in the same sense that personality almost overpowers evil in some vamps. They're still evil, like Spike and Harmony, but they might be seen as less evil than some like Angel and Dru.

As for whether the soul is the same for everyone, it's really hard to say, having only Spike and Angel to serve as examples, since both Liam and William were basically decent men. If there had been a former serial killer or pedophile vampire who had his soul returned, then we would have been able to see if the mere presence of a soul in a vampire somehow filled them with an overpowering sense of guilt and a strong desire to become a champion in the fight between good and evil

That is why to me the prime example we have to work with here is Darla and Connor. Because neither of them really share anything in common when it comes to personality. But they shared a soul. The soul didn't seem to change anything it either of them aside from wanting to do good.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Why wouldn't Angelus just decide to use it when he "loses" it for the second time.

Why don't alcoholics just stop drinking? I like where you are going with personality. I think there's something there. It goes back to what Joss said "Those without a soul are more instinctually drawn to evil." so, while part of Angel may which to just 'hear' it, he instinctively is conditioned not to.

But then what dictates if you use it or don't use it.

Your personality.

How could a spell make you use it

It literally imparts the ability to hear it.

For me, the whole soul thing works better if I view it as a conscience. I think that is what it was meant to be. I also, and again, this is just my point of view, I also feel that if it was written by someone that was not anti-god it might have had a much different, and easier to grasp in terms of milieu, meaning. Which again is why I simplify it to an alcoholic, as that is what Angel was modeled after.

 

[Blaze]

Why don't alcoholics just stop drinking? I like where you are going with personality. I think there's something there. It goes back to what Joss said "Those without a soul are more instinctually drawn to evil." so, while part of Angel may which to just 'hear' it, he instinctively is conditioned not to.

Some alcoholics do stop drinking though. Or they get help and stop. Why doesn't Buffy try to bring the vamps in therapy so that they learn to use their souls again? If the soul was really like alcoholism, we should see at least one vampire that is able to overcome the demon in favour of the soul, and in my opinion there is none (if anyone brings up Spike I can make a pretty dam convincing argument that he's not different than other vamps, but that argument is pretty long and I really don't feel like rehashing it.) Also, why is it that soul Angel makes a comment that the demon never goes away, it's always inside him. But unsouled Angel, or anyone else for that matter, never make a comment on how the soul is always there. If Angel can feel the demon, surely Angelus should be able to feel the soul too.

Your personality.

Again, why is it that no vampires make use of that soul then?

It literally imparts the ability to hear it.

For me, the whole soul thing works better if I view it as a conscience. I think that is what it was meant to be. I also, and again, this is just my point of view, I also feel that if it was written by someone that was not anti-god it might have had a much different, and easier to grasp in terms of milieu, meaning

I agree, it makes sense that the soul is the conscience. I just don't think vamps have any conscience to start with. But I do think some other demons do. But yes, Joss being atheist probably has something to do with how this was written (aka, very complicatedly)

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Some alcoholics do stop drinking though. Or they get help and stop. Why doesn't Buffy try to bring the vamps in therapy so that they learn to use their souls again?

Because it's alot of work and that was a point I made before (long time, not in this thread).. if anyone can just reensoul any vampire then a vampire slayer would be obsolete. But apparently anyone can.

If the soul was really like alcoholism, we should see at least one vampire that is able to overcome the demon in favour of the soul, and in my opinion there is none

I wont bring up Spike... but why would you want to? I mean, if you could live solely by the ID why would you want to stop? To quote Mrs Crow, if it makes you happy it can't be that bad.

Angelus should be able to feel the soul too

Angelus does. Thats why Angel and Angelus got in the fight. The opposite side is always there influencing the other. It's if one or the other opted to listen that made the difference.

It's not different than the old cartoon with an angel sitting on one shoulder and the devil the other... if you have a soul (in the buffy verse) you are more apt to listen to the angel, but can still certainly listen to the devil and get into mischief. If you are soul-free you are more apt to listen to the devil, or you could be Spike.

 

[Blaze]

wont bring up Spike... but why would you want to? I mean, if you could live solely by the ID why would you want to stop? To quote Mrs Crow, if it makes you happy it can't be that bad.

It's not different than the old cartoon with an angel sitting on one shoulder and the devil the other... if you have a soul (in the buffy verse) you are more apt to listen to the angel, but can still certainly listen to the devil and get into mischief. If you are soul-free you are more apt to listen to the devil, or you could be Spike

As to why someone would want to stop, you said it yourself. Personality. If there was still this little voice telling the vamps that what they're doing is bad, wouldn't a kind hearted vampire decide that even if killing people feels good, he should probably stop. I mean, my whiskey tastes dam good, but after a few drinks I still stop. I just don't see the spectrum you're explaining, where vampires are predisposed to evil, but the good is still there. If that were right, we'd see a spectrum where at least some vamps listen to the good.

Angelus does. Thats why Angel and Angelus got in the fight. The opposite side is always there influencing the other. It's if one or the other opted to listen that made the difference.

He does? When? Because if so I need to rewatch that episode.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

As to why someone would want to stop, you said it yourself. Personality. If there was still this little voice telling the vamps that what they're doing is bad, wouldn't a kind hearted vampire decide that even if killing people feels good, he should probably stop. I mean, my whiskey tastes dam good, but after a few drinks I still stop. I just don't see the spectrum you're explaining, where vampires are predisposed to evil, but the good is still there. If that were right, we'd see a spectrum where at least some vamps listen to the good.

Hey man (and I know your not a man, just figure of speech, didnt mean to offend) I was going to say one did but you told me not to say the S word. "after a few drinks I still stop" thats because you have a soul and you lean towards the good. Which explains why the S word would stop being eeevil and then start up again.

He does? When? Because if so I need to rewatch that episode.

That's basically the whole point of rat-eating, dog saving bad hair day Angel getting into the little sparring contest with Angelus... I dont remember episode names without looking and I got too many other things going on.. but the episode when Faith went into Angel's psyche.

 

[Blaze]

Hey man (and I know your not a man, just figure of speech, didnt mean to offend) I was going to say one did but you told me not to say the S word. "after a few drinks I still stop" thats because you have a soul and you lean towards the good. Which explains why the S word would stop being eeevil and then start up again.

Aright, you want it I'll give it to you 😛 To me Spike was never special, actually him doing good goes with his evil part and not his "good" part. Let me explain, every time Spike does good prior to his ensoulment, it's to further his own personal good. It's always about himself, sure he loves Buffy, but he does the things he does because he thinks it will make Buffy love him back. It's again, for his gain. Someone that would truly want to do good would comic acts because they are right, not because those act will bring them personal benefits.

Secondly, Spike does a lot of good because of the chip. The chip conditions him no to hurt others. And if he can't hurt anyone, he loses his purpose of being a vampire. He becomes a wild animal trapped in a cage, and after too much fighting, the animal starts to become domesticated. He still got the instinct, but he can no longer use it, which at times makes it seems like he does good. When in fact it's more of a case of him not being able to do bad. Spike never stops being evil, he just not allowed to be evil.

That's basically the whole point of rat-eating, dog saving bad hair day Angel getting into the little sparring contest with Angelus... I dont remember episode names without looking and I got too many other things going on.. but the episode when Faith went into Angel's psyche.

But that's all about Angelus being inside of Angel. Or the demon being inside of Angel, we never see the opposite.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Aright, you want it I'll give it to you 😛 To me Spike was never special, actually him doing good goes with his evil part and not his "good" part. Let me explain, every time Spike does good prior to his ensoulment, it's to further his own personal good. It's always about himself, sure he loves Buffy, but he does the things he does because he thinks it will make Buffy love him back. It's again, for his gain. Someone that would truly want to do good would comic acts because they are right, not because those act will bring them personal benefits.

But there were other instances before the whole Buffy courting.. things with Dru whereas he got her a necklace versus a human heart like Angel for VD. I cant remember others off the top of my head, but I want to think School Hard also, that he could have taken Joyce out if he wanted, he was 'touched' by the maternal instinct. If you want to read that far into it. Just little instances where he knew the correct behavioral response. As few and fleeting as they may have been!

The chip conditions him not to hurt others.

Exactly. He was conditioned to do the right thing. So that he knew the correct and acceptable response. But there was still the impulse to do the opposite. You can again relate this to people with addiction.

But that's all about Angelus being inside of Angel. Or the demon being inside of Angel, we never see the opposite.

Go back and watch it.. you dont see it, but you hear it. Angelus complained about having to listen to Angel all of the time. That he couldnt enjoy it because he always heard Angel in the background. Something like that. So, in my mind Angelus knew what he was doing was 'wrong' he heard his conscience/soul (Angel) but just opted to ignore it.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

So which bit of Buffy was in heaven if souls stay with the body?

I think the rules change at death. The soul leaves the physical body and gets a new spiritual body in the afterlife.

 

[bespangeled]

Souls are not sentient on their own... when a vampire gets his soul back, he has no memories of what the soul was doing during the time it was lost. It was just sort of "out there somewhere."

I do kind of like the idea that a soul is really just a kind of battery or power source, and any soul will work in any body. Since we know a person's mind and consciousness and personality are tied to his or her physical body and not soul (until after death), there shouldn't be any problem with that. In Brian Lynch's "Spike" comic series at IDW, we see Spike giving his soul to Drusilla. (That's not really canon, though.)

I think souls are exclusively a human thing. The only demons who have souls are those who were originally human (like vengeance demons). Regular demons find their moral compass in other ways, for better or worse.

I like this,but vampires were also originally human. Making Anya souled really screwed things up. 

You literally see SOMETHING go in.. something that the characters, which are fallible, say is the soul. (but when drugged Angel also acts as though he LOST his soul, when it is fact still there, but.. ) Let me ask you this.. can a human being lose their soul? Was Warren soul-free?

And demons are also literal beings in the B-verse. Angel, Spike and Harmony retained personality and memories. Harmony never got a soul. Angel did good with his only after he met Buffy. Spike was the Clockwork Vamp, but also retained memories and an excess of feelings. Both Spike and Angel did bad things souled, and Harmony did good ones without a soul.

I think the personality rules, in humans, how much toward the darkness they wish to travel. Demons are darkness. Souls are light. Souls in vampire are an invitation and a way to to move to the light. But the personality decides if, how, and when. 

As to why someone would want to stop, you said it yourself. Personality. If there was still this little voice telling the vamps that what they're doing is bad, wouldn't a kind hearted vampire decide that even if killing people feels good, he should probably stop. I mean, my whiskey tastes dam good, but after a few drinks I still stop. I just don't see the spectrum you're explaining, where vampires are predisposed to evil, but the good is still there. If that were right, we'd see a spectrum where at least some vamps listen to the good.



He does? When? Because if so I need to rewatch that episode.

Orpheus (the fight).

But the triangle theory still works. Two left angle triangles (flip one) make an equilateral. Angelus has no access to the light half of the equilateral. Angel has a soul and therefore access to the entire triangle. The personality remains the apex - and the amount of triangle accessible can influences decisions.

I imagine different demons have different systems. 

I think the rules change at death. The soul leaves the physical body and gets a new spiritual body in the afterlife.

But if the vamp is resouled, the soul can be damned for the deeds of the demon. Hardly fair, that.

 

[thetopher]

Spike does good prior to his ensoulment, it's to further his own personal good. It's always about himself, sure he loves Buffy, but he does the things he does because he thinks it will make Buffy love him back. It's again, for his gain.

This, for me, is what makes unsoulled Spike so complex because he doesn't always act this way. In S5 'Forever' for example he brings flowers for Joyce and is simply going to leave them...because he liked Joyce. It doesn't have anything to do with Buffy.
He also helps Dawn with her resurrection spell, and while this isn't the wisest action, the reasons Spike does in aren't that much to do with Buffy, but to do with Dawn and how she is mourning/feeling.