Arguments against Bangel that annoy you

[Taake]

Let's get back on track guys, Arguments against Bangel that annoy you.
This is the Bangel forum, and though I've already warned against directly targeting Spuffy fans as people/group, there's no need to defend Spuffy here or turn this into a debate better suited for the Battle Ship forum. There are better threads for this.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Athena]

After I and someone else were just told to stop talking bad Spuffy stuff by a mod in a thread that was originally not in the Spuffy section of the forum but it got moved there and suddenly we violated the rules. I feel the need to do the same, even though I'm not a mod. Because do you see a mod here in this Bangel thread (and that was here the whole time) on the Bangel forum asking you to stop doing exactly what the thread topic is about?

I was actually going to mention to @Fool for Buffy exactly the same as I said in the Spuffy thread. Same rules apply in both ship sections.

Btw I have better things to do with my Saturday than being on here 24/7. Just saying. 🙄

 

[S Rou]

Not attacking you... but technically the abuse thing is a major theme of the spuffy relationship. The attempted rape, the endless sex just as a form of Buffy dealing with her depression, Spike stalking her and stealing her underwear.... These things turn off so many people from the Spuffy ship. The Buffy from the first three seasons NEVER would have went for something like this.

It also bothers me what Spuffy did to Spike. He was so mjch better as a villain and went great drusilla. They were an amazing couple. When he fell for Buffy, he completely lost his edge and turned into a lovesick crybaby who steals buffys underwear.

For me, the highlight relationship of the later seasons is WillowxTara and to a lesser extent XanderxAnya. These were great couples and were healthy relationships (even with the Xanya relationship despite Anya's demonic past and their quirkiness, they were good together and did genuinely love each other and it was Xander who set her on the path to redemption from her past). And Willow and Tara were perfect for each other from the beginning. So I watched the later seasons for these two pairings, not for Spuffy.

Spuffy? It had a abuse and was based off sex and spike's infatuation with her. Bangel is based off love. Buffy and Angel loved each other so much that they even managed not to have sex even though they were probably dying inside over it.

But for me, ultimately the thing that absolutely proves that Angel is truly Buffy's soul mate, is the fact that after Buffy after sent him to that hell dimension where time moved differently, when he returned, he still loved her... Their love transcends everything... Spike getting his soul has nothing on this. Angel was tortured in hell for over a hundred years for Buffy and still loved her.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I was actually going to mention to [
Btw I have better things to do with my Saturday than being on here 24/7. Just saying. 🙄

As do we all. But I bowed out when you moved the thread. So I felt the same courtesy should be awarded to the Bangel forum. Hence I felt the need to defend what I said and point out that the member violated board rules. I know that's taking liberties I don't have but I since you can't be on 24/7 I felt the need to state the obvious. Sorry about that btw.

 

[S Rou]

As do we all. But I bowed out when you moved the thread. So I felt the same courtesy should be awarded to the Bangel forum. Hence I felt the need to defend what I said and point out that the member violated board rules. I know that's taking liberties I don't have but I since you can't be on 24/7 I felt the need to state the obvious. Sorry about that btw.

Not me. My life is so boring right now :/

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Another argument I hear often is that Angel is lame/boring and therefore why would anyone choose him for Buffy. First of all, I personally don't find Angel boring, ever at all not even once. Even in the early BTVS seasons when we get short exposition Angel, I was interested, wanted to know more about him, wanted to know his story, who he was, how did he know about Buffy, why did he have so many wife beaters, why he wore velvet blazers, could I see him shirtless....

And as we continued to develop Angel, I find him deep and interesting, complex, trying to find his place in the world and specifically in Buffy's world, and later on in his show constantly confronting and questioning morality. Making the decisions to fight and continue to fight even if it meant never reaching your goal, your redemption. Struggling with the idea of redemption. I guess if you find him boring you found his show boring?

I agree that Spike is the more charismatic character. I happen to love Spike in Seasons 1-4, especially Season 4 where he is a freaking hoot. Of course he has to be more charismatic because he is not our central protagonist and unlike when Angel was first introduced he was also not the love interest so you are coming at it from a different story perspective. But in fact to me the Spike character in Season 4 really cut into seeing him in a serious light later on in the show. Spike is the quintessential side kick. He is goofy and funny and has quippy Cordy-esque lines. He is Joss' way of injecting his witty dialogue that we all love. That makes me love Spike, it doesn't make me want to see him with my heroine. It makes me want to see him along side my heroine, telling her how it really is, or even fighting along side Angel.

So the argument that Angel is dull and Spike is not and therefore Spuffy for ever doesn't work for me.

 

[Taake]

Second reminder guys, let's get this back to arguments against Bangel that annoy you.

Personally, I find it's very frustrating when people categorize it as an eternally childish relationship. As if the characters can't grow. Which we have seen them do. A lot. Both together and apart.
I also think the curse is a nonsense argument because we've seen Angel, on his own show, grow and I don't think that loving and being loved by Buffy is a perfect happiness kind of a thing for him anymore. It was novel to him then, like a first time, but he's lost that innocence. The only reason we don't get to see them have a carnal relationship now, is because Angel has his own series/comic book now and can't just be sandwiched back into being just the boyfriend again. Exactly why I happen to think they're a better match btw, because they're equals, but I don't need them to get married and have kids or whatever. I'd rather Buffy did that with a human to be honest, if she did it at all.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Not me. My life is so boring right now :/

Then talk some more Bangel. Lots of it. The Bangel shipper forum could use it. I even promise to peskily agree or disagree, always in a respectful way of course. Maybe sometimes being a little snarky, ironic or sarcastic. But I promise that it would be funny...maybe. Or dirty, in a PG-13 max sort of way.

 

[Taake]

I guess if you find him boring you found his show boring?

I suspect a lot of people do. Which is fine, but I think they're missing out 🙂

I agree that Spike is the more charismatic character. I happen to love Spike in Seasons 1-4, especially Season 4 where he is a freaking hoot. Of course he has to be more charismatic because he is not our central protagonist and unlike when Angel was first introduced he was also not the love interest so you are coming at it from a different story perspective. But in fact to me the Spike character in Season 4 really cut into seeing him in a serious light later on in the show. Spike is the quintessential side kick. He is goofy and funny and has quippy Cordy-esque lines. He is Joss' way of injecting his witty dialogue that we all love. That makes me love Spike, it doesn't make me want to see him with my heroine. It makes me want to see him along side my heroine, telling her how it really is, or even fighting along side Angel.

Agreed. Spike is the kind of charismatic that makes you go "mm, this was fun for ten minutes, now I'm gonna go talk to a real person with actual depth", to me he is a childish kind of ideal - basically the cool bartender at a club that is broken and wants you to fix him. No thanks, I'd rather you fixed yourself and then we can have a mutual, respectful and mature relationship, thanks!

That's why I think that Spuffy is the immature relationship whereas Bangel is the more mature one. So again, Bangel being childish or immature is one of the main arguments that annoy me the most because I see it in the exact opposite light.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Personally, I find it's very frustrating when people categorize it as an eternally childish relationship. As if the characters can't grow. Which we have seen them do. A lot. Both together and apart.

A similar argument is made when comparing Bangel to Cangel. Argument being that Cordy and Angel being the more mature relationship. But this is situational because Angel and Cordy are not set in small town suburban high school setting, they are set in the darker, seedier, bigger world that is LA. They interact with adults and deal with adult situations.

But you are right the characters continue to grow even when they are apart from each other and of course because Bangel isn't brought together for full on relationships post IWRY we don't get to see that dynamic of their relationship. What we do get to see is both of them growing as people, learning lessons, forming new relationships and yet continuing to have feelings for each other throughout these journeys. And by the time we reach the end of these series both of them have become so much more similar and compatible then they were before.

 

[brinkster130]

An annoying argument is the age difference argument. People often equate Angel with a pedofile but think Buffy/Spike is totally cool because she's like 2 years older. But in reality both vampires are more that a century older than her so it's all weird if we're considering age.

 

[Antho]

In reality, David Boreanaz has 48 years old, so he had 28 years old when the show began. James Marsters has 54 years old, so 34 years old at the beginning of the show. David is more younger than James. Plus, honestly, for me, David never made his age, for me he seems/seemed more younger and on the other hand James makes his age or maybe 1-2 years less... So, the age difference argument, when you look at it from that perspective, it's totally invalid !

 

[RomanticSoul]

An annoying argument is the age difference argument. People often equate Angel with a pedofile but think Buffy/Spike is totally cool because she's like 2 years older. But in reality both vampires are more that a century older than her so it's all weird if we're considering age.

I love the pedophile argument to be honest. It just shows that some people are, as Spike would say, 'uneducated morons'. Angel doesn't qualify even remotely for a pedophile. Pedophilia is people of age 16 (give or take) and older being interested in pre-pubescent children. Buffy is not that, not even close.

The second reason I love it, it's people blatantly ignoring show canon, just to hate on a character or to dismiss a ship. When he was souled, meaning as Liam and Angel, Buffy was the odd one out in terms of age. All the other females were women in their 20's or older. Buffy is an exception rather than a rule.

And yes, William was clearly way past 30 when he was sired. And supposedly Spike's been having the hots for Buffy since S2. Kinda makes him a pedophile then too, no? But in general, just because Buffy is 2 years older or so in S5 makes all the difference? There is a lot wrong with Spuffy but the age difference between the actors always added to the ick factor. There are 15 years between them, JM is almost old enough to be SMGs father. And by S6 and especially S7 he really started showing his age in his face.

These are vampires. In Angel's case even a 100 year old woman would be considered too young.

 

[thrasherpix]

I just want to step in to say that it always struck me as strange (if so common that I'm mentally aware that I'm the strange one) that people are more concerned with an older man with a teenage girl than about someone ignoring a woman's (barely older, and at a vulnerable age for young women to fall prey to cults and abusers) refusal, stalking her, breaking into her house, and even trying to kill her. (I can also point out that many believe Spike was infatuated with Buffy the moment he saw her in season 2, and I hope they're not the ones who bring up the "pedophile" argument, since it's not that there wasn't Spuffy because Spike decided to wait a few years, and in the meantime venting his sexual frustration by trying to kill the Slayer instead. 🙄) It makes me think that they've completely missed the point of why age of consent laws are in place (at least why people like me support those laws as opposed to more Puritan-minded folks) in addition to how bizarre it is to me that smooching Buffy is somehow far worse than the violent and criminal crap Angelus and Spike pulled.

I could also quibble on how Spike and Angel both come from a time when a 16-year-old was a woman, not a child (and thus find the concept of her being underage difficult at best to understand on a gut level)...and if Buffy really was too young then to be with Angel then she was surely too young to be out late at night fighting monsters (especially when her grades suffered for it), too. 😛 (Come to think of it, I wonder what the Watcher's Council position on child labor laws are, or about a minimum age before one could sign up for the military? 🙄 )

 

[BuffyBot22]

The Angel stalked Buffy argument annoys me to no end because:

A.) Angel did NOT stalk her. Whistler specifically took Angel to Buffy (probably put in place by the powers that be) to turn Angel's life around on his way to heroism and to help out Buffy on her heroic journey as well. Then after he sees her in the parking lot, he clearly went off somewhere cleaned himself up, took a bath, got some wife beaters and black jackets, and probably physically trained. Then he possibly followed her for a bit before introducing himself. But, I hate to say follow, I feel like observe is the better answer. He wanted to check out her skills and see what she needed help with. Any time we see him lurking in s1-2 as Angel (not Angelus) it was for Buffy's protection.

B. Spike ACTUALLY did stalk Buffy. He would stand outside her house. Follow her without her knowing her. Come into her house un-welcomed and steal/sniff her underwear. That is considered stalking, all of that was for Spike's benefit, none of it was for Buffy's protection.



Angel is a pedophile- LOL really?
-Depending on state laws (not sure about Cali) but some states consider 16 the age of consent.
-Regardless of state laws, Buffy was the one to make the sexual move on Angel. He seemed more hesitant about sex in Surprise than she did.



Bangel is an immature/puppy love, while Spuffy is mature- this one really ticks me off
-Age does not always equal maturity especially when it comes to relationships.
-Bangel's love was based on mutual respect and mutual love. They had conversations and dates. They even remained together and in love without being able to physically be together- that's some real commitment right there. I know a lot of people would have just thrown in the towel.
-Spuffy's entire relationship is based on sex (if you take out the abuse, bc some of that is the whole Slayer/vampire thing), then you are basically left with what I would like to call a Fun Buddy- where basically you are each other's booty call- this is not a mature relationship because it's not even a relationship, it's basically just meaningless sex
-Buffy and Angel had a real relationship with real obstacles. They cared deeply about one another and wanted each other to be happy. In Spuffy all I saw was Buffy using him to feel anything after her death and Spike selfishly wanting her to give him something she could not.
-The whole age/maturity thing just doesn't fly with me either- I had a relationship in the 8th grade that was more mature than any of my high school relationships... Maturity in the relationship often depends on compatibility, mutual goals, and mutual respect- not your age.

 

[Mr Trick]

The age difference doesn't bother me. I'm guessing part of the argument from some fans is that Angel does act creepy in S1 or at least appears to the way he follows Buffy around, or just shows up at random times. Once the show establishes who he is, it wasn't such a problem.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I'm guessing part of the argument from some fans is that Angel does act creepy in S1 or at least appears to the way he follows Buffy around, or just shows up at random times. Once the show establishes who he is, it wasn't such a problem.

Another argument I don't get. On what is it based? A feeling in someone's pinkie? Can't be canon. We see Angel follow Buffy twice from what I recall. In the Pilot and Angel. So that means he was following her around ever day or what? Because if that's true than apparently Angel is either blind most of the time, followed the wring girl or willingly doesn't help Buffy because if he did follow her all the time there were some jams he could have helped her out with.

 

[Mr Trick]

Another argument I don't get. On what is it based? A feeling in someone's pinkie? Can't be canon. We see Angel follow Buffy twice from what I recall. In the Pilot and Angel. So that means he was following her around ever day or what? Because if that's true than apparently Angel is either blind most of the time, followed the wring girl or willingly doesn't help Buffy because if he did follow her all the time there were some jams he could have helped her out with.

Yeah we see it a couple of times, but it must have happened a lot because of the amount of times he happened to show up in places Buffy were at. Its more of a problem because Angel is meant to be a good guy.

 

[Taake]

Just a friendly reminder that this is the Bangel forum and the topic is arguments against Bangel that annoy you.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Yeah we see it a couple of times, but it must have happened a lot because of the amount of times he happened to show up in places Buffy were at. Its more of a problem because Angel is meant to be a good guy.

Season 1 is basically Angel showing up at the bronze saying "I hoped you would be here" over and over. Not all that unusual to go to a club looking for a girl who goes there often to talk to her and to give her some warnings about what she might face.

I always looked at it as Angel wanting to stay out of the way (remember that at this point he is not one for the socializing) while coming around to offer help where he could or give info. Never felt creepy to me.