Arguments against Bangel that annoy you

[Mrs Gordo]

A lot of characters are "badass". What makes Buffy better than anyone else?

Buffy was not perfect but was an admirable person. She fought and saved the world a lot etc. There was a whole show about her so I'll direct you to that. If she didn't speak to you that's ok too.

In either case I liked her. Thought/think she deserves generally good things in her life. I'd like the main protagonist in one of my favorite shows to end up with a good guy for her so I think that's where the "are they good enough for Buffy" comes from.

I love Angel too. I think he deserves good things. And since I think Buffy is a good person and he happens to love her I would be happy if they got together.

And I'll be honest, I don't know that end of BtVS Season 3 Angel was in a good place to be with anyone. He was at the beginning of a journey of self discovery and had a long way to figuring out his self worth.

I won't get into Spike's worthiness because that is not relevant to the topic really and we will end up going down a dark dark path lol.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I'm not even going to bother. Spike fans want to twist my words, I'm used to that.

Hey you were the one complaining about how the age between the actors adds to the "ick" factor of Spuffy, about how JM was starting to look his age in Season 7. I am not a Spuffy fan, the clue is in my avatar and signature, there are plenty of reasons not to like Spuffy but trying to use "the actor looks older than the actress" is not a valid argument. It's ageism. That's like saying Dawn shouldn't be shipped with any of the scoobies ever, even if she's an adult, because MT looks younger than any of the other cast.

*yawn* If you actually bothered with reading the conversation, we were talking about Season 1.

And don't reply to this. Enough with disrespecting the board rules.

Ha! Your response is laughable. Firstly the conversation was about Angel "stalking" Buffy. I merely mentioned an example in Lovers Walk where he was hanging around Buffy's house, specifically the back garden. I suggested she could've called him, though given his reaction to Spike, it doesn't seem like he knew Spike was there which he would've if Buffy had called him. But then again you like to cherry pick what "evidence" you look at rather than trying to see the full picture so I'm not surprised the idea of looking at something from a different season is so offensive to you.

Another explanation is that he merely turned up to talk to Buffy, thinking she would be at the house, which is a perfectly valid explanation for why he could've been there and could explain any other time he turns up at the house unannounced.

FYI Don't tell me what I can and can't reply to. I'm merely responding to some arguments that have been made in this thread. You don't like that, tough shit.

In either case I liked her. Thought/think she deserves generally good things in her life. I'd like the main protagonist in one of my favorite shows to end up with a good guy for her so I think that's where the "are they good enough for Buffy" comes from.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Buffy and I think we can all agree that we'd like her to end up in a healthy relationship with someone she's happy with. It's this whole people have to be "worthy" of her argument that annoys me. Basically it's like Buffy is saying to someone "you're beneath me" which I think is wrong. We wouldn't want anyone having that attitude towards Buffy so why should Buffy have that attitude towards someone else? Obviously some people aren't right for each other and so shouldn't be together, but that shouldn't mean that one person is "better" than the other.

Bangel is still the preferable ship for Buffy out of the 3 she's officially had so far.

 

[Taake]

FYI Don't tell me what I can and can't reply to. I'm merely responding to some arguments that have been made in this thread. You don't like that, tough shit.

Well congrats, you are getting banned from the thread for failing to listen to a moderators warning. And while you're at it you can work on not being so rude.

FFS guys, this is the Bangel forum and a Bangel thread. Take the shipping debate and what makes Buffy great debate elsewhere. It's not that hard. Gees, louise.

 

[BibliophileAnn]

That Bangel couldn't last because it was a first love. That it was unhealthy. That it was over after IWRY and it had run it's course.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

That it was over after IWRY and it had run it's course

Yeah I mean I guess in terms of a "relationship" they don't have one after IWRY but there are still feelings and love there. You can't ignore: Forever, the Season 6 off screen meeting "he needs to see me, I need to see him"; what Buffy says in Selfless; EoD/Chosen both of them filled with emotions; and TGIQ where Angel is still obviously hung up on her. So it's not over it has not run its course. Even in the comics it's on the back burner but not all together done. 😉

 

[BibliophileAnn]

Yeah I mean I guess in terms of a "relationship" they don't have one after IWRY but there are still feelings and love there. You can't ignore: Forever, the Season 6 off screen meeting "he needs to see me, I need to see him"; what Buffy says in Selfless; EoD/Chosen both of them filled with emotions; and TGIQ where Angel is still obviously hung up on her. So it's not over it has not run its course. Even in the comics it's on the back burner but not all together done. 😉

That is why the arguments against Bangel I mentioned are lame. I am glad that Bangel is not over like those arguments indicate.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I thought of this thread when I ran across another favorite /sarcasm/ argument of mine:

"Buffy/Angel were in love with "idealized" versions of each other"

Let's look at whether Buffy was in love with an "idealized" version of Angel.

When Buffy meets Angel he is no hero. He readily admits to be afraid to go and stop the Harvest in "The Harvest." He is conveniently omits vital information regarding his being a vampire and admits he "wanted to kill her." In Season 2, he continues to be slightly reclusive and he pushes her away for fear that relationship is not a great idea. Shortly thereafter, he loses his soul and his demon basically psychologically tortures her for months and tries to end the world. After he comes back from hell, he comes back feral and hardly recognizes her and THEN tries to KILL himself. Despite all of these flaws (and encouraging Angel to continue to live/fight) Buffy loves him. Please someone explain to me how this is an "idealized" version of Angel?

I do believe that Buffy grew to respect Angel and I don't think that is a negative thing but I see no evidence that Buffy idealized him. Rather she believed in him, believed in his journey.

Now lets look at whether Angel was in love with an "idealized" version of Buffy.

This one is a little trickier because Buffy was the reason that Angel initially chose to forge his path for redemption and I do believe he felt inspired by her. But there is evidence that he recognized her flaws as well in the early years. In Season 1 he seemed annoyed at her in the early days when she wanted to have a normal life instead of doing her job (see NKABOTFD). In "Angel" he didn't think that she would understand that his soul made him different (he believed Darla.) In Season 3, he sees first hand her insecurities regarding Faith/how he feels about her and tells her point blank "you don't have to play games with me." Then post break up he straight up calls her a "brat" in Graduation Part I. So again, he recognizes she is not perfect.

But if there was any doubt as to whether Angel "idealized" Buffy see IWRY/Sanctuary. In IWRY he stands up to her regarding his decision to turn back time telling her that despite what the want (to be with each other) the right thing to do is for him to go back to being a vamp and continue to fight. In Sanctuary he picks Faith's side over hers, hits her and sends her home, all the while telling her "I see you it cuts me up inside" acknowledging his ongoing feelings for her. He is still in love with her and yet he stands in opposition to her because he thinks she is wrong.

I think Angel continues to love Buffy despite understanding that she is not perfect. He does not hero worship her as is evidenced by his ability to disagree and stand up to her.

 

[crazysoulless]

Darla is who he's meant to be with because they had a child together

He was depressed and had been stalked and tormented by her. He was trying to commit suicide via sex. He didn't lose his soul because, like he said, "it was perfect despair." Buffy is the one Angel had the kids talk with several times. He put a ring on her marriage finger and dreamt of their wedding. Angel didn't realize he wanted to be a father until he fell in love with Buffy and it gutted him that he could never impregnate her.

Angel was more honest with Cordelia

Within a month of introducing himself to Buffy, she knew he fought monsters, was a vampire, murdered his family, killed a Romani girl and got cursed with a soul, was fairly religious, was over 200 years old, was romantically involved with Darla for generations but staked her, feels so much guilt over everything he did while soulless and is unsure of his place in the world as neither human nor full demon.

Cordelia didn't even know Angel was a vampire until Buffy told her in BtVS s2. She thought he might be a loser who has to borrow his parent's car.

Cordelia was the only member of AI who didn't know Angel had a one night stand with Darla and didn't find out until she showed up 9 months pregnant.

It doesn't make sense for Angel to still be in love with Buffy in LA

Angel was still in love with Buffy after 100 years in Hell. They are mirrored by Ricky/Lily so it might be true that "he remembered your name long after he forgot his own." The first word Angel said when he returned to Earth was "Buffy." By the time he left town he'd been in love with her for 103 out 372 years and he said despite having hundreds of ex lovers Buffy was the ONLY person he loved.

Los Angeles is the first place Angel saw Buffy. It's where she was born and raised and Called as the Slayer and mourned him when he was in Hell and had her first full time job and spent the first two summers after moving to Sunnydale. It's only two hours away from her.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

Darla is who he's meant to be with because they had a child together

He was depressed and had been stalked and tormented by her. He was trying to commit suicide via sex. He didn't lose his soul because, like he said, "it was perfect despair." Buffy is the one Angel had the kids talk with several times. He put a ring on her marriage finger and dreamt of their wedding. Angel didn't realize he wanted to be a father until he fell in love with Buffy and it gutted him that he could never impregnate her.

You know, in addition it always bothers me that barely any people acknowledge that Angel has been raped multiple times by Darla. She was having sex with him after she made him fall asleep 😱

 

[Mrs Gordo]

You know, in addition it always bothers me that barely any people acknowledge that Angel has been raped multiple times by Darla. She was having sex with him after she made him fall asleep 😱

By souled Darla to boot!

 

[Taaroko]

The age difference argument is particularly annoying to me because there's no consideration of intent. Buffy was Angel's first assignment from the PtBs, and in the course of carrying out that assignment, he got to know her and fell for her because of the person she was and the admirable way she shouldered her responsibilities even as she struggled to hold onto her normal life. But he fought against his feelings and let her set the pace. They started out at pretty much the same level of emotional maturity, and then grew together.

(The one place age difference and the way the show handles it really does bother me is in "Teacher's Pet." Why does everyone play Xander's crush on Miss French for laughs instead of being horrified by it? Yes, it is dumb and shallow of Xander to have this crush, and that's all it would be if Miss French wasn't encouraging it. EXCEPT THAT SHE IS. And yet her extremely sinister and predatory behavior doesn't seem to be a problem until the main characters realize that she is some kind of praying mantis siren thing.)

I think the "Buffy/Angel is boring/unrealistic" argument comes from people who prefer the love/hate will they/won't they style buildup to a relationship rather than instant mutual attraction and lots of steamy eye contact even if it still takes a while to start dating. It's not that there aren't obstacles for Buffy/Angel to overcome, it's that those obstacles are all external. For me, that's extremely compelling, and it's rare that a love/hate relationship even makes sense to me, let alone is appealing, but I guess there are people who like it or it wouldn't be a trope. (Han/Leia is one of those rare cases where I'm all for it, and if Elizabeth/Mr. Darcy counts as that, then hell yes, but I'm still baffled by Xander/Cordy going from yelling at each other to snogging. Does that actually happen in real life?)

Another reason for that argument is probably that there really isn't a significant phase of unrequited love in the early Buffy/Angel days, just both of them struggling against their mutual feelings because they think it's a bad idea (and I can understand why that might seem melodramatic to some—even I find myself saying "just kiss, you idiots!" during some of those angsty longing-filled standoffs in S1/early S2). Unrequited love is probably way more common than two people falling for each other at a roughly equal pace, but that doesn't automatically make it more engaging. I rooted very hard for Ginny in HP when her crush on Harry was unrequited and I rooted for Jim in The Office, but the way Xander and (to a much greater degree) Spike handle their unrequited feelings for Buffy is so selfish and indifferent to her own feelings that it makes me hope they never get what they want.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

but I'm still baffled by Xander/Cordy going from yelling at each other to snogging. Does that actually happen in real life?

Oh yes. It's more prevalent in High School but it does happen out in the wild as well. Around holiday times are perfect for it as well. It's usually a hit 'n run scenario so it doesn't last as long as Cordy and Xander did, but yeah, it does happen.

 

[RomanticSoul]

(The one place age difference and the way the show handles it really does bother me is in "Teacher's Pet." Why does everyone play Xander's crush on Miss French for laughs instead of being horrified by it? Yes, it is dumb and shallow of Xander to have this crush, and that's all it would be if Miss French wasn't encouraging it. EXCEPT THAT SHE IS. And yet her extremely sinister and predatory behavior doesn't seem to be a problem until the main characters realize that she is some kind of praying mantis siren thing.)

I rooted very hard for Ginny in HP when her crush on Harry was unrequited and I rooted for Jim in The Office, but the way Xander and (to a much greater degree) Spike handle their unrequited feelings for Buffy is so selfish and indifferent to her own feelings that it makes me hope they never get what they want.

The thing for me is now is I see all those things in a different light. There is stuff that has bothered me since S1. But looking at all this stuff now in light of what we learned about Whedon...it makes so much more sense to me. There are rare occasions when Whedon's avatar is the one who gets the unfair treatment (ala Faith chocking Xander and it being all about Faith), but there are other writers who have issues (hello Marti and Jane) and sometimes maybe it just slipped past Whedon. Or maybe sometimes he feels like he should be punished, when he remembers he's supposed to have a conscience or whatever.

You know, in addition it always bothers me that barely any people acknowledge that Angel has been raped multiple times by Darla. She was having sex with him after she made him fall asleep 😱

Exactly why I would never ship them. Same as Spuffy. You simply can't and shouldn't really, try and build something on a ground so toxic. Angelus/Darla is fine. And I do find the relationship interesting due to it's complexity but just NO.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Or maybe sometimes he feels like he should be punished, when he remembers he's supposed to have a conscience

Replace conscience with soul and it sure sounds like a character he said he could never understand.

 

[EarthLogic]

I think the "Buffy/Angel is boring/unrealistic" argument comes from people who prefer the love/hate will they/won't they style buildup to a relationship rather than instant mutual attraction and lots of steamy eye contact even if it still takes a while to start dating. It's not that there aren't obstacles for Buffy/Angel to overcome, it's that those obstacles are all external. For me, that's extremely compelling, and it's rare that a love/hate relationship even makes sense to me, let alone is appealing, but I guess there are people who like it or it wouldn't be a trope. (Han/Leia is one of those rare cases where I'm all for it, and if Elizabeth/Mr. Darcy counts as that, then hell yes, but I'm still baffled by Xander/Cordy going from yelling at each other to snogging. Does that actually happen in real life?)

If you're going to compare it to real life then the love/hate thing is far more unrealistic - there may be a little bit of back-and-forth/hostility when some people meet but how many couples do you know of who have argued and hated each other for an extended period of time before suddenly realising their attraction and shacking up? Usually the arguments come after people get together.

Han/Leia seems to be Joss' model for Spuffy in some ways, and it shows. But funnily enough whenever he's made comments about why Buffy and Angel can't be kept together the fictional couple he brings up most (apart from Romeo & Juliet) are Sam & Diane, which IMO is probably the most glorious love/hate relationship written since Shakespeare's Much Ado.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Han/Leia seems to be Joss' model for Spuffy in some ways, and it shows.

The comparison of Spuffy to Han/Leia causes a literal visceral reaction from me. Lol. I get that the bickering blue print is there but man is Spuffy light years away from H/L.

And Joss has made clear he thinks of Spuffy as the Much Ado - Beatrice/Benedict.

 

[EarthLogic]

The comparison of Spuffy to Han/Leia causes a literal visceral reaction from me. Lol. I get that the bickering blue print is there but man is Spuffy light years away from H/L.

Yeah I love Han/Leia too, but you can see its influence in Joss' writing.

And Joss has made clear he thinks of Spuffy as the Much Ado - Beatrice/Benedict.

Which is why I find the Sam/Diane comparison for Buffy/Angel intriguing.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

@EarthLogic i had never hear hear the Sam and Diane comparison. It is interesting. Do you recall when that was made by JW?

 

[EarthLogic]

@EarthLogic i had never hear hear the Sam and Diane comparison. It is interesting. Do you recall when that was made by JW?

He's said it a number of times. Here's one example: The man behind the Slayer
It's mainly in the context of 'we can't keep them together because once they've reached their peak then it starts to get boring', which I get because Sam/Diane were the couple that were the Iconic couple for that TV generation and hit their peak early when they got together. Still, it's interesting...

 

[Mrs Gordo]

He's said it a number of times. Here's one example: The man behind the Slayer
It's mainly in the context of 'we can't keep them together because once they've reached their peak then it starts to get boring', which I get because Sam/Diane were the couple that were the Iconic couple for that TV generation and hit their peak early when they got together. Still, it's interesting...

Yeah I was thinking that. I was a kid when Cheers came out so not incredibly intune but wasn’t the thing that once they slept together it kind of ended?

And you know I sometimes forget but Buffy and Angel did have the whole bickering annoying each other early on “who said I needed a friend” “I never said I was yours” “I really didn’t like him” “I thought you’d be bigger with muscles”