Arguments against Bangel that annoy you

[Mrs Gordo]

And with Angel. She wasn't a very good vampire slayer when you really consider it.

She killed Angelus, the second time around anyway. So she did her job. Killing Angel, who has a human soul, is arguably akin to murder. So don't blame her for not staking soulled Angel.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Yes, but in Angelus's case, there was an emotional reason that killing him would be hard, whereas with Spike, it was just...writers caving to fan demand.

I meant when she first found out he was a vampire. She should have killed him. She is the vampire slayer. Her job is to kill vampires. Oh look! Vampire! here's a nice woody stake for you.
 

Killing Angel, who has a human soul, is arguably akin to murder.

You cannot murder something that is dead. Vampires are dead humans.

 

[Taaroko]

*flat stare* Unless you're measuring with the Watchers' Council's yardstick, she is not automatically a bad vampire Slayer for failing to kill vampires who have souls. I do not at all blame her for waiting to find out for sure what Angel's deal was when she found out he was a vampire before she was willing to attack him, nor for standing down as soon as she found out about his soul.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Plus... who contributed to her becoming a bad Slayer? Spike. Because she worked with and made a deal with him. Clearly she felt, even then, that he was trustworthy. Which, to move back to the topic, means there was something there which could also mean, yes, she could love unsouled Spike.

 

[Taaroko]

She didn't think he was trustworthy, she was in "enemy of my enemy" mode because she had few other options once Kendra was dead, she was wanted for her murder, and most of the Scoobies were either kidnapped or injured. He's the one who offered to work with her, and he still had to talk her into it because she was super opposed to the idea and he kept cheering for Drusilla killing Kendra and casually trying to murder cops. And she only grudgingly invited him into her house because they were actively under attack by Angelus's goons and got caught by Joyce. It only starts becoming stupid that she doesn't kill Spike in "Lovers Walk." The second he told her where Xander and Willow were, she should've staked him, because unlike in "Becoming," she was only working with him that time because he was holding her friends hostage.

 

[crazysoulless]

But loving unsouled Spike is not the same as loving Angelus. She could not love Angelus and love Spike. They are not same thing... not even close. I can't fathom any possible way that Buffy could ever love Angelus.

I don't think she loved Angelus so much as she couldn't stop loving Angel and it transferred onto him because he was in his body and had his memories.

Every time she was around him she had to remind herself, "You're not him."

She wasn't about to invite Angelus out for hot chocolate. It was more that he was a constant reminder of Angel.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Give me the mutual attraction with external obstacles over the wear-her-down trope any day! That's the one that I hate the most.

Exactly. One of the reasons I hate Killow.

Mylie: I hate those kinds of ships too. Another one like that is Captain Swan.

CS completely derailed OUAT. By Season 6, Emma Swan wasn't even remotely recognisable as the strong character she was in Season 1.

I hate the "he got a soul for her" lie.

I hate the fact that Spike had to change a big part of himself, something that had never bothered him before in his 120ish years as vampire, so that he would be "worthy" of Buffy's love. People would be crying blue murder if it was Buffy that had to change a part of herself that she had no problem with to be "worthy" of someone else, so why is there such a double standard that when a male character does it, it's "romantic" yet if a female character has to change it's "misogynistic"? Either someone is lovable as they are or they're not. It shouldn't be a case of they're only lovable after they've changed to suit what their partner wants.

And Spike did this as well didn't he? He tortured Angel twice (WML/Into the Dark). He was on a killing rampage as well School Hard/Halloween. He tried to kill her a number of times before he became neutered School Hard/Halloween/sent assassins in WML. I'm not arguing the virtues (or lack thereof) of Angelus v. Spike but I feel that we aren't giving Spike enough credit here. He wasn't initially presented as "non-threatening." I have the same bad habit of forgetting he was the big bad of Season 2 but he was until Angelus upstaged him.

Spike was actually competent in Season 2. He came close to killing Buffy several times and it was only really outside forces working against him rather than his own mistakes that led to failure.

In School Hard, he almost killed Buffy until Joyce hit him with an axe.

In Halloween, he tracked down an impaired Buffy and would've killed her if Giles hadn't stopped Ethan's spell in time.

In Lie to Me, he would've slaughtered the vampire worshippers and possibly killed Buffy if Buffy hadn't used Dru as leverage against him.

In What's My line Part 1&2, he successfully figured out the cure for Drusilla and managed to restore her before Buffy collapsed the church organ on him which left him temporarily paralysed.

In Surprise, Spike successfully gathers all of the pieces of the Judge as a present for Dru. He then takes a backseat to Angelus until the finale.

In Becoming Part 2, Spike successfully negotiates a get out of town pass for him and Dru despite Buffy wanting Dru dead.


In Lover's Walk, Spike's slight incompetence there is used to show how far he's fallen since Dru broke up with him because he spends most of the episode heavily drunk. Even then, he still competently kidnapped Willow and Xander and all but coerced Willow into performing the love spell for him. If Buffy hadn't heard his voice on the phone, she never would've known he was there. Lover's Walk is used as a contrast to how highly competent Spike was in Season 2. During later Seasons when Spuffy becomes a thing, his competency level goes downhill, so much so he looks like a genius in Lovers Walk. The last time he showed any real competence was in nearly tearing the Scoobies apart in The Yoko Factor.

How more non-threatening can you be when, as a big bad vampire, you get scared off by the slayers mother. Her mother. Come on.

Correction, Slayer's mother WITH AN AXE. It's proven how dangerous mothers can be when it comes to protecting their young. Hell hath no fury like a protecting mother. It's the reason you stay far away from bears when they've got cubs around because they will attack you and kill you big time, all in the name of protecting their cubs. Also Spike was expecting a lone slayer, he never thought he'd be facing a team, hence him telling Dru "a slayer with family and friends, that sure as hell wasn't in the brochure".

Back on topic, the scene where Angel sees Buffy for the first time just after she got called as a slayer isn't that bad . At that juncture in time he wasn't expecting to fall in love with her, his early Season 1 appearances basically consisted of him warning Buffy then after the battles going "hey you're not dead yet! Kudos!" His line "I loved you the first time I saw you" (or something to that effect) is the character himself romanticising their "meeting" despite the fact Buffy didn't meet him. It's no different than someone looking back on their long-term relationship and retroactively saying they loved their partner at first sight, even if that first "meeting" was just a look across the room and no actual interaction.

Did angel need time away from Buffy to get rid of his self-pity? Yes, his time on his own show definitely helped him to grow as a character (and gave him a more rounded personality), but was it ever meant to be taken as Bangel being over? I don't think so. As Spike himself says in Lover's Walk, "You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends."

Then we get this exchange between Buffy and Angel:

Angel: Hey. I was wondering when you were coming.
Buffy: I'm not coming back. We're not friends. We never were. And I can fool Giles, and I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason. What I want from you I can never have. You don't need me to take care of you anymore. So I'm gonna go.
Angel: I don't accept that.
Buffy: You have to.
Angel: How can...There's gotta be some way we can still see each other.
Buffy: There is: tell me that you don't love me.

Buffy is well aware that she's still in love with Angel, but she can't have the happy future she wants with him because of the curse. She knows he's still in love with her and if they stay around each other, something is going to happen which potentially risks unleashing Angelus. As soon as Angel shanshus, him and Buffy will be together (because that would be the end of Angel's story which means him and Buffy finally being able to be together would be the end of her story and thus the writers won't have to cater to Spuffy fans so Spike can exit stage right and Bangel can finally be together.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

@Mylie and @DeadlyDuo Jane Espensen, our resident Spuffy, is a writer and co-producer on OUAT and I understand she wrote and loves many of the captain Swan episodes. I’ve seen lots of posts comparing them to Spuffy. I stopped watching back in Season2 so I know nothing about the ship. But I’m not surprised by the comparison

 

[Mylie]

@Mylie and @DeadlyDuo Jane Espensen, our resident Spuffy, is a writer and co-producer on OUAT and I understand she wrote and loves many of the captain Swan episodes. I’ve seen lots of posts comparing them to Spuffy. I stopped watching back in Season2 so I know nothing about the ship. But I’m not surprised by the comparison

Yes, I know! It's really not surprising and also why I couldn't include her in the top 5 writers thread. I am so against her idea of what romance or even quality television is.

I think she once wrote a text about one of the ships (I think Captain Swan) and you could have interchanged Captain Swan with Spuffy, those ships have so many similarities. I watched Ouat until season 4, then I became bored and couldn't take the ridiculousness of that ship anymore. The show wasn't good enough for me to keep watching despite my annoyances with the main couple.

 

[NileQT87]

Sorry, but no. I totally disagree with the Bangels here bashing Captain Swan. It's nothing like Spuffy. Hook doesn't even act like Spike, given that he has more in common narratively with Holtz! Season 6 Captain Swan is outright taken from the Angelus arc. And Swanfire is a horrible 'ship (Neal, who is mostly the Connor character as Baelfire, is more akin to Spike, given that he's the reason Emma went to prison and Swanfires essentially want her back with her abuser) that should NOT be getting compared to Bangel by actual Bangels. If anything, season 2 Rumple vs. Hook is more like Angel vs. Holtz, except the characters do and learn the opposite lessons (which is where the comparison ends). No, it's just not comparable at all. The main inspirations for Captain Swan are Han/Leia and Westley/Buttercup. The Princess and the Pirate trope has nothing to do with Spuffy or Bangel. MAJOR MISTAKE to compare these 'ships. They don't run on the same tropes.

However, the Doctor/Rose 'ship clearly does operate on the same trope as Bangel (immortal/mortal doomed romance).

Russell T Davies definitely had BtVS/AtS in mind when he brought back Doctor Who and he has fully admitted it. The Doctor was transformed in his era into a lonely, centuries-old immortal in love with a human girl. The blonde mortal girl is the last person you'd think would become a hero, given that the council estate shopgirl is the British equivalent of the vapid Valley Girl cheerleader. The speech that the Tenth Doctor gives Rose is practically verbatim the speech the Mayor gives in Choices about immortals and mortals. Jack is also clearly based on Angel, given their durability feats are a running joke and they lead the darker, more "adult" spinoff. Jack actually kills his own grandson, which is a bit reminiscent of "the father will kill the son" ironically coming to pass in Home. The Tenth Doctor, like Angel, gets worn down by losing everything, is prone to making some very dark decisions that go too far and struggles with a massive amount of guilt. The Tenth Doctor, like Angel, gives up Rose to live a normal human life (and he made that decision for her twice). The Tenth Doctor and Angel are especially tragic characters and both of them go out as such. Jenny the Doctor's Daughter was yet another take on Buffy--the perky, blonde girl with fighting skills and superpowers, though she's also a bit an impossible child like Connor.

Specifically, the characters of Angel and Buffy seemed to inspire multiple characters:

Angel: Ninth Doctor, Tenth Doctor, Jack Harkness
Buffy: Rose Tyler, Jenny the Doctor's Daughter
BtVS: Doctor Who
AtS: Torchwood

 

[Mylie]

I am talking about the dynamic of the bad boy being obsessed with the female savior and then her finally giving in after saying no multiple times. Also look at the show suddenly revolving around that bad boy who was originally just a supporting character, because all the girls are fangirling over him. I stand by what I said.

 

[NileQT87]

Nope. Sorry, but nope. It was clearly more of a Han/Leia and Westley/Buttercup dynamic.

Also, the writers wanted Hook from the start as Emma's love interest in season 1. Adam & Eddy have stated so. The Great Ormond Street Hospital was holding the Peter Pan copyright hostage (which they are notorious for doing, despite the copyright needing to have run out by now, given the age of the work). There were legal troubles getting in the way and OUaT was already dealing with it during season 1, because of their long-term plans.

Disney has been in court a lot with GOSH, going back to the 1953 movie.

 

[crazysoulless]

@NileQT87 You missed a big Doctor Who parallel! Doctor & Clara (Whouffle)

Clara = last shot of her she's an immortal wearing a waitress uniform
Buffy = Whedon said his first idea for her was as an immortal waitress

Clara = exhausted from trying to be fully in two worlds, not wanting to give up her normal life but eventually does
Buffy = exhausted from trying to be fully in two worlds, not wanting to give up her normal life but eventually does

Clara = mom died when she was 18
Buffy = mom died when she was 20

Clara = teacher at Coal Hill School
Buffy = Counselor at Sunnydale High

Clara = dated ex soldier (Rupert "Danny" Pink) she met on school campus
Buffy = dated ex soldier (Riley Finn) she met on school campus

Clara = freelanced for her gov's unit that deals with the paranormal
Buffy = freelanced for her gov's unit that deals with the paranormal

Clara = rides a motorcycle instead of car
Buffy = has ridden a motorcycle (in the prequels, would prefer it to a car)

Clara = called a short bossy control freak
Buffy = called a short bossy control freak

Whouffle = they're doing the exact same thing (inspiring people, saving lives, fighting monsters), it started with the immortal man already loving her, he saw her before she became a badass, thought of her as "under my protection", she calls him out on doing things for her own good, they mourned each other's deaths, their relationship is the Hybrid prophecy, he nearly destroyed the universe trying to get back with her, "run you clever boy and remember", it turned out she gave him his mission statement that helped inspire him to be a hero (her speech in s8's Listen), they had to separate because of how much they love each other

Bangel = they're equals doing the exact same thing (imspiring people, saving lives, fighting monsters), it started with the immortal man already loving her, he saw her before she became a badass, thought of himself as her guardian angel, she calls him out on doing things for her own good, they mourned each other's deaths, their relationship is the Twilight prophecy, he nearly destroyed the planet to get back with her, "I will remember you", she gave him one of his mission statements that helped inspire him to be a hero (her speech in s3's Amends), they had to separate because of how much they love each other

 

[NileQT87]

I absolutely loathe Clara with a passion. Moffat couldn't even figure out what the character was from season to season. She was another one of Moffat's vague sassy females that just talk down to males a lot and know everything. Clara is one long list of being too good at everything, to the point where it's Clara Who, not Doctor Who. River had the same problem of Moffat trying to write a character who is always better at everything than the Doctor and is another poorly-written character by Moffat.

Rose was well aware that, while she was amazing in her own way, she's not better, smarter and more competent than the Doctor, even if she's imparting her human perspective when his guilt-ridden alien one sometimes gets in the way of seeing the humanly obvious or dealing with characters on a very human, mundane level that he wouldn't be able to. Rose and her single mother, who is disapproving of her new life, is also much closer to how Buffy and Joyce were written and actually shown (more than just the dead parent thing). Clara's family may as well not have existed (kind of like Amy's parents, even if Rory's dad managed to make more of an impression). RTD and Moffat were exact opposites when it came to writing their characters' family lives. RTD gave everyone fleshed-out families. Moffat cared about plot and his own cleverness, not character building.

Joss Whedon's females at least ran on several different archetypes. And Buffy was more than just a tough, sassy know-it-all. She was often very vulnerable, wasn't the best student, could only get hired at the most mundane of jobs, didn't have all the answers, had deep insecurities and looked and acted like the kind of female character who is NOT taken seriously. Buffy and Rose are female characters where their entire backgrounds are just one long list of reasons they'll be underestimated and mocked as being in any way a threat--and yet, they're extraordinary, despite this. Remember, Buffy was based on the dumb blonde girl in horror films that is killed off all the time, but the trope is turned on its head to make her the unlikely monster killer (Darla's first scene was another riff on this, complete with the Catholic schoolgirl fashion choice making it look like she was the obvious victim). Rose Tyler, the bored shopgirl whose life is going nowhere with a boring boyfriend, who speaks with a cockney accent and lives in a council estate, only to destroy a whole Dalek fleet and fall in love with an immortal she can't have, is a much closer match to the Valley Girl cheerleader who mangles the English language, is trying to have a dating life and do girly stuff in between slaying vampires, then breaks all the rules by falling in love with someone she's supposed to be slaying.

Rose and Jenny were genuinely inspired by Buffy, by RTD's own admission. Same with the RTD-era Doctors and Jack having tons of Angel in them. He never made it a secret that BtVS/AtS were two of his biggest influences. He even looked to BtVS and AtS when it came to the revival format of the show (the season arcs/Big Bads format) and how to make the darker, more-adult spinoff about an immortal action hero with a running gag of not dying from mortal wounds and a team of monster fighters.

Moffat, on the other hand, not anything he ever talked about.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Plus... who contributed to her becoming a bad Slayer? Spike. Because she worked with and made a deal with him. Clearly she felt, even then, that he was trustworthy. Which, to move back to the topic, means there was something there which could also mean, yes, she could love unsouled Spike.

I hate to be the one to have to point this out again. But this section was for Bangels to complain about the reasons Spuffy's used to hate on our ship. If you would like to have a ship war, Lovers Walk is the place for that.

I'm sorry if this comes off rude, it's just getting ridiculous at this point that we can't have a conversation in the Bangel section without someone coming in and trying to defend Spike.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I hate to be the one to have to point this out again. But this section was for Bangels to complain about the reasons Spuffy's used to hate on our ship. If you would like to have a ship war, Lovers Walk is the place for that.

I'm sorry if this comes off rude, it's just getting ridiculous at this point that we can't have a conversation in the Bangel section without someone coming in and trying to defend Spike.

Yeah, I know the rules thanks. If you read my initial post I wasn't having a "ship war" I was saying that I agree Buffy could never love Angelus. I didn't make it Angel versus Spike, the other people in the thread did. I specially said you CANNOT compare Angelus to Spike and then everyone ELSE started comparing them, thus creating the "ship war" you mention.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Yeah, I know the rules thanks. If you read my initial post I wasn't having a "ship war" I was saying that I agree Buffy could never love Angelus. I didn't make it Angel versus Spike, the other people in the thread did. I specially said you CANNOT compare Angelus to Spike and then everyone ELSE started comparing them, thus creating the "ship war" you mention.

But you are doing a wonderful job of baiting. All your posts lately in the Bangel forum have been in defense of Spike and even Spuffy. And since this is the Buffy and Angel forum, it's a given that those fans come to the defense of both Angel and the ship. Hence 'ship war'.

Certainly keeps the conversation going though.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But you are doing a wonderful job of baiting. All your posts lately in the Bangel forum have been in defense of Spike and even Spuffy. And since this is the Buffy and Angel forum, it's a given that those fans come to the defense of both Angel and the ship. Hence 'ship war'.

Certainly keeps the conversation going though.

Oh if I wanted to bait, I would bait. I wanted to have a conversation and since the most threads that have any conversation are either on bangel only thread or spike only threads and most of the spike only threads tend to discuss his physical attributes I come here to discuss the differences in the character. I wasn't trying to start a war but have a conversation.

I believe some opted to read it as my defending Spuffy, where, from my point of view, I was just talking about what I saw on the show. That's why there were only a few of the arguments against that were posted which I bothered to comment on. Because in my opinion those are valid arguments against Bangel. Especially when the last one had nothing to do with Bangel but Bangelus, and Buffy's inability to love Angelus.

Further, I even made a thread for people that don't ship any ship to discuss things, but it got closed down.

 

[EarthLogic]

I hate to be the one to have to point this out again. But this section was for Bangels to complain about the reasons Spuffy's used to hate on our ship. If you would like to have a ship war, Lovers Walk is the place for that.

I'm sorry if this comes off rude, it's just getting ridiculous at this point that we can't have a conversation in the Bangel section without someone coming in and trying to defend Spike.

I think defence of Spike for the sake of constructive argument can or should be allowed up to a point - that point being as long as it's not bashing B/A or defending him in a way that's detrimental to the positive discussion of B/A, or is designed to bait posters. I myself am happy to defend aspects of Spike/Spuffy and criticise weaker aspects of Bangel for the purposes of creating meaningful discussion about it. A safe space does not have to be an echo-chamber of viewpoints, otherwise it'll just become a nodding game.

I should add that non-shippers who comment should also be mindful of the possible emotions that their arguments may provoke and so temper their language and tone in a way that respects the purpose of the forum as a safe space. Tone is often difficult to discern and control online, especially when people post comments in a matter of fact way, which in shipper forums can tend to come across as a little bashy, even if it's not intended that way.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Oh if I wanted to bait, I would bait. I wanted to have a conversation and since the most threads that have any conversation are either on bangel only thread or spike only threads and most of the spike only threads tend to discuss his physical attributes I come here to discuss the differences in the character. I wasn't trying to start a war but have a conversation.

Further, I even made a thread for people that don't ship any ship to discuss things, but it got closed down.

Are all the Bangel vs Spuffy and Angel vs Spike threads in the cemetery now? I thought they were still around? 😕 But I don't get around on the forum much anymore so I wouldn't know.