Arguments against Bangel that annoy you

[Grace]

How more non-threatening can you be when, as a big bad vampire, you get scared off by the slayers mother. Her mother. Come on.

Plus... who contributed to her becoming a bad Slayer? Spike. Because she worked with and made a deal with him. Clearly she felt, even then, that he was trustworthy. Which, to move back to the topic, means there was something there which could also mean, yes, she could love unsouled Spike.

I see these two things as somewhat contradictory. The very fact that Buffy thought she could take out Spike if she needed to meant she didn't really need to trust him to work with him. If he came through on his word that ending the world was less important than getting Dru out of Angelus' sphere of influence, then awesome. If he didn't, then she's no worse off than she was before and he's dust. Inviting him into the house is the same -- she knows it can be undone later if necessary and she's there to take him out if he tries anything fishy.

And while I agree with you to some extent that there was a different quality to unsouled Spike that might make him more loveable than Angelus, that to me makes him worse in the end. If you can control your evil impulses sometimes, then the question of how responsible you are for your actions becomes murkier.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Are all the Bangel vs Spuffy and Angel vs Spike threads in the cemetery now? I thought they were still around? 😕 But I don't get around on the forum much anymore so I wouldn't know.

I'm not talking about Bangel or Spuffy. I was talking about Buffy and why it would be impossible for her to love Angelus should not by default mean it would be impossible for her to love unsouled Spike. I never seen that discussed in those type threads before.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I’m sure you know some of your posts here will stir up responses. For example re he got his soul for her:

How is that a lie? Even your examples in Beneath You proves it's not a lie.

I think most people here feel like this is a club of people who share similar interests (they like the Bangel ship). And this is a space for people with that common interests to discuss - that ship. It would be like me starting a book club for people who love Jane Austen and we get together at a book store in a circle to discuss this common interest and you happen to be passing by and decide to stop to argue that Jane Austen was an anti-feminist (it’s not that you like Frances Burney you just think Jane Austen was SO not a feminist).

Now I agree that meaningful conversation is what it’s all about and obviously I am weak and take your bait every time because I like to argue. Anyway I feel like this post is weird and I don’t know the point I’m trying to make lol.
 
@Mr. Pole I said no such thing! I’m pretty sure the only valid point i made was that Jane Austen was a feminist...

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"this is a club of people who share similar interests (they like the Bangel ship)... this is a space for people with that common interests to discuss - that ship."
I don't have that common interest so this space is not for me. That's why I never posted in here before. I will go back to not posting in here again. No biggie. I just wanted to discuss things that I read.

 

[EarthLogic]

I hate the fact that Spike had to change a big part of himself, something that had never bothered him before in his 120ish years as vampire, so that he would be "worthy" of Buffy's love. People would be crying blue murder if it was Buffy that had to change a part of herself that she had no problem with to be "worthy" of someone else, so why is there such a double standard that when a male character does it, it's "romantic" yet if a female character has to change it's "misogynistic"? Either someone is lovable as they are or they're not. It shouldn't be a case of they're only lovable after they've changed to suit what their partner wants.

The question that bothers me is why a demon would want to commit what is essentially an act of self-annihilation? The only answer I have is that he was so obsessed with having Buffy love and accept him that it didn't occur to him that a soul would basically suppress his demonic self. He should have, since he saw the drastic change it produced in Angel(us) but his behaviour is consistent with his personality as someone whose self-perception is limited, especially when he's obsessed. It sort of takes us back to whether an unsouled and souled versions of vampires can or should be considered the same person - if yes then you can objectively say he - the demon - has changed, if not, then all he/it's achieved is a suppression of him/itself. This also then feeds into the question of whether you think BtVS' blurring of its previously established good/evil binaries, as seen through Spike in the later seasons, is a strength or weakness of the show.

As soon as Angel shanshus, him and Buffy will be together (because that would be the end of Angel's story which means him and Buffy finally being able to be together would be the end of her story and thus the writers won't have to cater to Spuffy fans so Spike can exit stage right and Bangel can finally be together.

I would actually really hate for that to happen, at least in the way you describe because once again it will feel like fanservice. One of the appealing things about Spuffy is that we actually see their relationship develop onscreen and the writers did devote time and focus to a complex layering over four TV seasons. With Bangel they obviously maintain their connection but because they are apart their relationship can't really grow or change. To then have Buffy and Angel get together right at the very end in 'oh now we can finally be together, yay!' way will only serve to make Spuffy look even better because the latter will come across as a relationship which has developed in a real way whereas Buffy and Angel will just have been plonked together at the very end. There will have been no journey, no conflict, no sense of having to work hard to understand who the other person really is. It'll just be a fantasy and one which, if Joss writes it will have that same undercurrent of mocking cynicism that I felt with their meeting in 'Chosen'. I don't know if many shippers here feel that about 'End of Days'/'Chosen' too, but it's something I've been thinking about recently, having just reading some B/A meta written by a Spuffy (I know, I know, I shouldn't do so if I want to preserve my sanity) which argues that the whole relationship is subversive in the sense that its failure highlights how it is a fantasy that both Buffy and Angel cling to (especially with their later season meetings being 'an escape' from their lives, as opposed to the 'real messiness' of Spuffy). Obviously I don't agree overall, but I think there may be a kernel of truth in that assessment when it comes to Joss' writing.- makes me wonder if Joss does see B/A that way. The Twilight debacle in the comics certainly seems to support this.

 

[Grace]

I don't know if many shippers here feel that about 'End of Days'/'Chosen' too, but it's something I've been thinking about recently, having just reading some B/A meta written by a Spuffy (I know, I know, I shouldn't do so if I want to preserve my sanity) which argues that the whole relationship is subversive in the sense that its failure highlights how it is a fantasy that both Buffy and Angel cling to (especially with their later season meetings being 'an escape' from their lives, as opposed to the 'real messiness' of Spuffy). Obviously I don't agree overall, but I think there may be a kernel of truth in that assessment when it comes to Joss' writing.- makes me wonder if Joss does see B/A that way. The Twilight debacle in the comics certainly seems to support this.

I would really love to understand what Joss means when he says that Angel is the wrong guy for Buffy. It seemed from context (I think it was Surprise/Innocence) that he was saying that because Angel is a vampire and Buffy is a slayer but as the show went on and Spuffy happened, then that stopped making sense. So I don't know if there's more to it than that. Why he thinks they're fundamentally mismatched.

I do think there is an interesting disconnect between Joss' writing and his directing. I can see what you mean by there being a mocking element to EoD/Chosen, but since SMG and DB played the scene in a heartfelt way (at least in my opinion), I find myself leaving Joss' intentions behind. 🙂 And while I do think Buffy and Angel cling to the hope of being together, they certainly aren't blinded by it. Buffy told Angel she needed time for herself; Angel ended up signing away the Shanshu. Maybe there is an element of fantasy to it, but not delusion.

My biggest disconnect with Joss' work insofar as I have seen it is his view on adulthood being so bleak. I think that may play a role in why he has trouble with happy couples, too. I guess the Spuffy of the comics can be seen as progress on that front, but I wonder how much of that is Christos rather than Joss. Or maybe Joss thinks it's funny to let Spike and Buffy be happy after everything he's done to every other couple on the shows.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I don't know if many shippers here feel that about 'End of Days'/'Chosen' too, but it's something I've been thinking about recently, having just reading some B/A meta written by a Spuffy (I know, I know, I shouldn't do so if I want to preserve my sanity) which argues that the whole relationship is subversive in the sense that its failure highlights how it is a fantasy that both Buffy and Angel cling to (especially with their later season meetings being 'an escape' from their lives, as opposed to the 'real messiness' of Spuffy). Obviously I don't agree overall, but I think there may be a kernel of truth in that assessment when it comes to Joss' writing.- makes me wonder if Joss does see B/A that way. The Twilight debacle in the comics certainly seems to support this.

This is utter BS but that's a problem with Joss and the writing. So I can sort of see how someone can come to that conclusion. The whole Twilight thing kind of makes it clear. Buffy and Angel apparently needed to learn lessons (again) they should have long internalized. Especially with Buffy it has been an issue, where Whedon hit the reset button on her development every Season. Buffy in S2 certainly thought there might be a happy ending. Angel said, correctly, 'this isn't some fairytail'. The Angelus arc and the curse effectively ended that for Buffy. She understood. The problem is, for Whedon to constantly get B/A into the same dilemma again and again (aka bring them together to tear them apart) he has to discard their individual character growth/change. Because then he'd have to deal with the fact that they are different people and therefor the relationship also has to change. And Whedon is just not willing to write an ever evolving relationship. The status quo of lap dog/top dog is easier because that relationship won't change.

 

[EarthLogic]

I would really love to understand what Joss means when he says that Angel is the wrong guy for Buffy.

When did he say that?

do think there is an interesting disconnect between Joss' writing and his directing. I can see what you mean by there being a mocking element to EoD/Chosen, but since SMG and DB played the scene in a heartfelt way (at least in my opinion), I find myself leaving Joss' intentions behind. 🙂 And while I do think Buffy and Angel cling to the hope of being together, they certainly aren't blinded by it. Buffy told Angel she needed time for herself; Angel ended up signing away the Shanshu. Maybe there is an element of fantasy to it, but not delusion.

Yeah I think the way DB/SMG played it gave it depth and made up for what it lacked on paper. I do find the scene a bit weirdly written though. The beginning of the scene in the crypt is good but once they move outside Angel starts too act a little too immature and it becomes all about whether Spike is her boyfriend!😕

I love petty Angel but here it seems off because it's lacking in context. It's like Joss is just relying on the viewers' knowledge of what has happened in S4-7 and his writing for Angel works off that rather than being true to character. The last time Angel and Spike met, Spike had him hanging from the ceiling and being tortured so to our knowledge Angel has no idea that Spike was chipped and working with the Scoobies, and he obviously has no idea that Buffy's been having depressive hate-sex with a soulless Spike and yet his first reaction when he detects Spike's scent is 'Is he your boyfriend?'. 😵 What he should have said was 'I know Spike's scent pretty well....Buffy, what is going on?'. He should have been confused and then shocked because as far as he knows, Spike is evil. To find out Spike has managed to get a soul should be a HUGE deal and Angel should be asking serious questions about that. But no, instead we get petty jealousy - which makes no sense!

I liked the cookie dough bit that came next though.

My biggest disconnect with Joss' work insofar as I have seen it is his view on adulthood being so bleak. I think that may play a role in why he has trouble with happy couples, too.

Actually I think it's kind of the opposite - he doesn't seem to understand that getting two characters together doesn't have to mean END OF DRAMA. Adulthood can be and is bleak sometimes, but that and being in a committed relationship with the person you love aren't mutually exclusive experiences. Happiness isn't something just handed to people when they get together; it's something that they have to work hard to create every day! B/A absolutely has the potential for that because of who Buffy and Angel have become as individuals, yet Joss appears to continually read their relationship through a S2 'doomed lovers' lens as if getting together means end of story!😡😡😡

 

[DeadlyDuo]

@Mylie and @DeadlyDuo Jane Espensen, our resident Spuffy, is a writer and co-producer on OUAT and I understand she wrote and loves many of the captain Swan episodes. I’ve seen lots of posts comparing them to Spuffy. I stopped watching back in Season2 so I know nothing about the ship. But I’m not surprised by the comparison

Didn't she also write Skin Deep which is widely considered one of the best, if not the best, episode in OUAT so far? It kick started the RumBelle fandom overnight.

Yes, I know! It's really not surprising and also why I couldn't include her in the top 5 writers thread. I am so against her idea of what romance or even quality television is.

I think she once wrote a text about one of the ships (I think Captain Swan) and you could have interchanged Captain Swan with Spuffy, those ships have so many similarities. I watched Ouat until season 4, then I became bored and couldn't take the ridiculousness of that ship anymore. The show wasn't good enough for me to keep watching despite my annoyances with the main couple.

I'm still watching OUAT (though am a little behind, but it's a kind of I started so I'll finish kind of things but they can't go on much longer. Season 7 seems like it could be the last, they might get a season 8 at a push, but I can't see it going beyond that). CS took over the show. The main problem with it wasn't necessarily the pairing itself (they did have chemistry in their first episode together) but the fact that it felt like there was a missed step between Emma not wanting anything to do with him and then suddenly being in love with him.

Sorry, but no. I totally disagree with the Bangels here bashing Captain Swan. It's nothing like Spuffy. Hook doesn't even act like Spike, given that he has more in common narratively with Holtz! Season 6 Captain Swan is outright taken from the Angelus arc.

Season 5A CS definitely ripped off the Becoming ending when Emma ran Hook through with the sword. There were bits in Season 5 that you could tell they ripped off of Buffy.

And Swanfire is a horrible 'ship (Neal, who is mostly the Connor character as Baelfire, is more akin to Spike, given that he's the reason Emma went to prison and Swanfires essentially want her back with her abuser)

I disagree. I think they could've had Emma and Neal not be romantically together but still have them working together to parent their son.

I am talking about the dynamic of the bad boy being obsessed with the female savior and then her finally giving in after saying no multiple times. Also look at the show suddenly revolving around that bad boy who was originally just a supporting character, because all the girls are fangirling over him. I stand by what I said.

I hated Hook from Season 2-5, particularly when he would target Belle, an innocent, just because he wanted to get at Rumple. The whole wants his hand back episode did Hook no favours. But Season 6 I actually liked him, he actually genuinely apologised to Belle for how he treated her AND he gave Belle a place to stay when she left Rumple. In contrast Emma, the plucky heroine in Season 1, became so unlikeable by Season 6 that Hook could honestly do better. She goes rifling through his things and finds an engagement ring then forces him to propose to her despite the fact he wanted to tell her something that he had just found out (that he had killed her grandfather). She doesn't give a crap about her son anymore, everything is about Hook for her now. When Belle goes to Granny's to get a room, Emma does nothing to help her. She doesn't offer her a place to stay or even offer suggestions, she just goes "you don't want to stay here" then walks off. Emma Swan became so selfish and self-centred by Season 6 which happened to coincide with CS when she started Season 1 as a good brave hero who always stood up for the helpless.

@NileQT87 You missed a big Doctor Who parallel! Doctor & Clara (Whouffle)

Clara = last shot of her she's an immortal wearing a waitress uniform
Buffy = Whedon said his first idea for her was as an immortal waitress

Clara = exhausted from trying to be fully in two worlds, not wanting to give up her normal life but eventually does
Buffy = exhausted from trying to be fully in two worlds, not wanting to give up her normal life but eventually does

Clara = mom died when she was 18
Buffy = mom died when she was 20

Clara = teacher at Coal Hill School
Buffy = Counselor at Sunnydale High

Clara = dated ex soldier (Rupert "Danny" Pink) she met on school campus
Buffy = dated ex soldier (Riley Finn) she met on school campus

Clara = freelanced for her gov's unit that deals with the paranormal
Buffy = freelanced for her gov's unit that deals with the paranormal

Clara = rides a motorcycle instead of car
Buffy = has ridden a motorcycle (in the prequels, would prefer it to a car)

Clara = called a short bossy control freak
Buffy = called a short bossy control freak

That is the biggest insult to Buffy you could've given. Clara was the worst thing to happen to Doctor Who and actually stopped my enjoyment of the show. Had she not been killed off, I would've stopped watching long before I did. Then they went and ruined her death episode by unkilling her. Her role as teacher was laughable because she did so many unprofessional things that would've potentially got her fired, taking a photo of a student on her own personal phone would've at least been a disciplinary meeting. Moffat very clearly had a hard-on for Clara because the show became all about her. The Doctor himself became a mere supporting player.

I absolutely loathe Clara with a passion.

I hate Clara more than I hate Kennedy, that's how much I hate her.

The status quo of lap dog/top dog is easier because that relationship won't change.

Add in the fact that they turned Spike into semi-Angel with the soul. The whole sell of Angel's character was that he was unique, a vampire with a soul. The soul was a PUNISHMENT for all his bad deeds as Angelus. It's one of the main problems I have with Spike going to get the soul to be "worthy" of Buffy. He's essentially punishing himself (which for a vampire would be akin to self-harm) all so that she would like him better. He's then rewarded for that self-harm because now Buffy does like him better. That's a horrible message to send. S7 Spike is a shell of Season 2 Spike which is a pity because Season 2 Spike was great.

If Whedon wanted Buffy to be with a souled vampire, then he should've stuck with the original, not dismantle another great character and turn him into proto-Angel 2.0

Yeah I think the way DB/SMG played it gave it depth and made up for what it lacked on paper.

Buffy's face lights up when she sees Angel.

 

[EarthLogic]

Buffy's face lights up when she sees Angel.

And we all cheer: 'Yay! She's back!' 🙂
 

Add in the fact that they turned Spike into semi-Angel with the soul. The whole sell of Angel's character was that he was unique, a vampire with a soul. The soul was a PUNISHMENT for all his bad deeds as Angelus. It's one of the main problems I have with Spike going to get the soul to be "worthy" of Buffy. He's essentially punishing himself (which for a vampire would be akin to self-harm) all so that she would like him better. He's then rewarded for that self-harm because now Buffy does like him better. That's a horrible message to send. S7 Spike is a shell of Season 2 Spike which is a pity because Season 2 Spike was great

Yeah and if the show wants to turn its moral framework on its head and suggest that not all vampires are inherently evil and that their lack of soul does not preclude them from being treated as decent people in their own right...then they should bloody well alter the mythology to back that up!

And if Spike's soulless actions are selfless enough to be considered 'good' and his personality even while soulless somehow makes him a better match for Buffy, then shouldn't Buffy fall in love with the demon as he is, thereby proving that demons can be good and she loves him for who he is... et cetera...?

But of course that can't happen because then Buffy would not be able to go out and kill vampires every night. She couldn't stake them; she'd have to instead go round the cemetery every night asking all the fledglings how evil they feel on a scale of 1-10 and whether they feel they have an innate desire to do good. Forget Buffy the Vampire Slayer - she'd be Buffy the Vampire Therapist!

 

[Grace]

When did he say that?

Mark Field quotes him in his post on Surprise/Innocence. I don't have the original source but Mark seems careful about that kind of stuff.

But of course that can't happen because then Buffy would not be able to go out and kill vampires every night. She couldn't stake them; she'd have to instead go round the cemetery every night asking all the fledglings how evil they feel on a scale of 1-10 and whether they feel they have an innate desire to do good. Forget Buffy the Vampire Slayer - she'd be Buffy the Vampire Therapist!

Even with the way events unfolded, I still think there's room to argue that Maggie Walsh is the hero of the show. If not for The Initiative chipping Spike, it's hard to see how he would have ever gotten to the point of getting his soul. And if Spike hadn't gotten his soul, then everybody might have died in Chosen. 😉

 

[EarthLogic]

Mark Field quotes him in his post on Surprise/Innocence. I don't have the original source but Mark seems careful about that kind of stuff.

I think maybe it's in the DVD commentary, since Field mentions that at the beginning of his post.

Even with the way events unfolded, I still think there's room to argue that Maggie Walsh is the hero of the show. If not for The Initiative chipping Spike, it's hard to see how he would have ever gotten to the point of getting his soul. And if Spike hadn't gotten his soul, then everybody might have died in Chosen. 😉

Or Angel might have died. or Buffy might have died again. Or Faith might have stepped up to the task...

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Undercurrent of mocking cynicism that I felt with their meeting in 'Chosen'.

There was something there during the meeting that didn't add up to 100% for me. It felt like 93% there. But I didn't pick up on a "mocking cynicism" although I have read that from other people. Based on the DVD commentary I think Joss struggled with the decision to bring Angel back. This is evident when he says "That vocal minority who care about Buffy and Angel meant that we had to do service by him." (Also side note F you Joss...) But once Joss commits to do something I wholly believe he puts his all into it. I don't believe he was purposefully mocking the relationship during the meeting. I think that some of the difficulties of the scene were the limited amount of time they were given to work with DB (7 hours) and tons of dialogue. If he did mean to show its "mocking cynicism" it didn't work on this viewer.

It's no secret that Joss didn't want Angel to be a long term love interest for Buffy. From the get go, he wanted him in and out after Becoming. He thought the story was done after that. Then he was convinced that Angel could be a spin off and he included him in Season 3. Then Angel's show demanded that his relationship with Buffy be presented to his new audience so he gave us IWRY. And I think sometimes as a writer your work, your art, takes on a life of its own for the audience. Right now the tide is strongly pro-Spuffy but I remember when I was young the fans were up in arms about Angel leaving Buffy after Season 3. There was outrage at this. That has obviously been tempered and mostly forgotten. So he may not have intended to write this grand love story but he did. I remember an old quote from him on the pair is "There was nobody getting over Buffy and Angel . Just nobody." (I think this was in relation to the Riley). And part of me feels that he might have been slightly resentful of this.

I love petty Angel but here it seems off because it's lacking in context. It's like Joss is just relying on the viewers' knowledge of what has happened in S4-7 and his writing for Angel works off that rather than being true to character. The last time Angel and Spike met, Spike had him hanging from the ceiling and being tortured so to our knowledge Angel has no idea that Spike was chipped and working with the Scoobies, and he obviously has no idea that Buffy's been having depressive hate-sex with a soulless Spike and yet his first reaction when he detects Spike's scent is 'Is he your boyfriend?'. 😵 What he should have said was 'I know Spike's scent pretty well....Buffy, what is going on?'. He should have been confused and then shocked because as far as he knows, Spike is evil. To find out Spike has managed to get a soul should be a HUGE deal and Angel should be asking serious questions about that. But no, instead we get petty jealousy - which makes no sense!

I have no doubt that Angel and Buffy had semblance of what was going on each other's lives to some extent or another although we were not shown that to be the case. They are both warriors fighting evil in California and they are only like 2 hours away from each other. They probably interact with the same demons and they talk. I'm sure Giles and Wesley would call each other to compare notes. We saw Cordy and Willow talking about computer stuff from time to time. I head canon that Angel had some idea or heard rumors that Spike had been neutered or ensouled and maybe even heard through the grapevine that Buffy was sleeping with Spike. I also understand Angel's jealousy and I have no doubt that if they were talking about Darla/Cordy/Nina, Buffy would show jealousy too. But maybe I just personally relate to their characters feeling this way so it worked for me. Alot of times people say, Angel is better than that or its OOC of him to act childish. But these are human emotions. He still has feelings for her and he has a history with Spike and I completely understand him being petty about it.

In a perfect world all of these revelations would have been given more time and space. So I agree with you on that front for sure. It was condensed.

Adulthood can be and is bleak sometimes, but that and being in a committed relationship with the person you love aren't mutually exclusive experiences. Happiness isn't something just handed to people when they get together; it's something that they have to work hard to create every day! B/A absolutely has the potential for that because of who Buffy and Angel have become as individuals, yet Joss appears to continually read their relationship through a S2 'doomed lovers' lens as if getting together means end of story!😡😡😡

This is incredibly well said. Buffy and Angel have so many things to work through. When I write my fics alot of that stuff tends to come to the forefront because you cannot ignore all that they have been through. Both of them have hero complexes. Both of them are stubborn. Buffy at times feels she is the authority on the moral high ground (see Sanctuary) and Angel feels more comfortable trying to find the good in the bad. I read on another post recently (although I can't remember which one) that they thought that Angel was an "extremely confident person" and I disagree with that. I think he often questions his path, his choices. I don't know if that is a flaw or not but I think that could be annoying in a relationship. Buffy needs to deal with her Angel abandonment issues, Angel needs to learn that the people he loves can be happy with him (he seems to believe they can only be happy without him - See Connor too).

the whole relationship is subversive in the sense that its failure highlights how it is a fantasy that both Buffy and Angel cling to

I think sometimes people think that Bangel fans want Angel and Buffy together frolicking and sparkling in a beautiful green pasture with not a care in the world. B/A fans are told to "grow up" because the kind of love that Angel and Buffy had is not realistic. And as you say above the relationship fails because Buffy and Angel cling to this idealization of each other. And if the Buffy and Angel relationship had stopped at Surprise (Buffy/Angel snuggling post coital bliss END SCENE THE END). Then I could totally see where they are coming from. But you are missing the second half of the story here. Nothing post Surprise is easy for the two. (Angelus' words/actions, Buffy's killing Angel, Angel's suicidal attempt, Buffy's reluctance to be close to him, Buffy forcing Angel to drink her nearly to death, Angel leaving Buffy, Angel giving up a chance at humanity with Buffy, Buffy and Angel fighting over the Faith situation). Buffy says as much in Chosen "What was the highlight of our relationship, when I killed you or when you left me?"

And so for me, the life is hard and messy and therefore Spuffy, is an incongruent argument because Buffy and Angel never had it easy. And going forward, they wouldn't have it easy.

What I find INCREDIBLY ironic about the argument of "the realness/messiness" of Spuffy is that Spike and Buffy's relationship in the comics in Season 11 anyway has become somewhat unrealistically ideal, little conflict, little attention to their past and how it would/should affect their issues with each other.

 

[crazysoulless]

Yeah, your opinion on Clara is the most popular. My opinion on Clara:

Imagine if there were 49 seasons of AtS before Buffy Summers was introduced. How would people think of her, near the beginning of her journey, in Welcome to the Hellmouth? If she became leader of the Scooby Gang years after Angel had become leader of the Fang Gang?

How would people think of Clara Oswald if there were 3 seasons of Clara Who before Doctor Who premiered and if DW was a spinoff of her show? How would people think of Angel if Graduation Day #2 was the last we saw him and AtS never happened?

Liam was born in 1727 and didn't interact with Buffy until 1997. That is 270 years of experience, death, sex, adventures, and trauma before he ever walked down that alleyway in Sunnydale. But we know he is soulmates/OTP with Buffy because he was introduced on BtVS, her show, in the same episode we meet her. Angel didn't get his own show---becoming the lead---until years later. We found out about his past through flashbacks and his ex lovers & enemies started popping up after his relationship with Buffy began.

I think Moffat was saying that Clara was always half of the story, we just didn't get to find out in the same way as Bangel. It turned out that Clara has been out there in her own tardis with companions doing what the Doctor does in her own way. I like that her story didn't end because the Doctor isn't there to see it just like BtVS didn't end when Angel left and just because Buffy didn't get to watch AtS doesn't mean it didn't happen. We don't get to watch a Clara Who spinoff but she is out there getting her Buffy on.

To be clear though....

Buffy >>> anyone I've compared to her

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Yeah and if the show wants to turn its moral framework on its head and suggest that not all vampires are inherently evil and that their lack of soul does not preclude them from being treated as decent people in their own right...then they should bloody well alter the mythology to back that up!

And if Spike's soulless actions are selfless enough to be considered 'good' and his personality even while soulless somehow makes him a better match for Buffy, then shouldn't Buffy fall in love with the demon as he is, thereby proving that demons can be good and she loves him for who he is... et cetera...?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. My point is that if Buffy can't love Spike as he is, then she shouldn't love him at all and Spuffy should've ended. It shouldn't be a case of he has to get a soul before she deems him acceptable to love. That's almost like someone saying that they will only love you if you dye your hair a certain colour and if you don't then you are not acceptable for them to love.

But of course that can't happen because then Buffy would not be able to go out and kill vampires every night. She couldn't stake them; she'd have to instead go round the cemetery every night asking all the fledglings how evil they feel on a scale of 1-10 and whether they feel they have an innate desire to do good. Forget Buffy the Vampire Slayer - she'd be Buffy the Vampire Therapist!

Lol

Buffy: Hi, I that you've just newly risen from you're grave. I just want to ask you a couple of questions before we proceed from there. First question: On a scale of 1-10, 1 being not at all and 10 being a sure bet, how likely is it that you're going to commit an evil deed?

Vampire: Um........5 I guess.

Buffy: Ooh 50/50 I like it! Second question: If you had the choice between pushing an old lady down some stairs or carrying her up those same stairs, which would you do?

Vampire: Oh I'd definitely push her down those stairs, then carry her back up them so I could push her down again.

Buffy: Honesty, nice. I don't meet many honest vamps in my line of work. Last question: You come across an abandoned child, what do you do?

Vampire: Eat them.

Buffy: Ok, that concludes our Q&A. Hey, look over there! (Stakes vampire) Another one bites the dust!

 

[BuffyBot22]

Yeah, I know the rules thanks. If you read my initial post I wasn't having a "ship war" I was saying that I agree Buffy could never love Angelus. I didn't make it Angel versus Spike, the other people in the thread did. I specially said you CANNOT compare Angelus to Spike and then everyone ELSE started comparing them, thus creating the "ship war" you mention.

Sorry for the late reply, I had exams.

I did read your posts and they were antagonizing. Something that would ignite ship war. But, I personally do not want to get into explaining why since it seems that others have already done so while I was absent, and you seem to have left the conversation.

And there are plenty Spike vs. Angel and Spuffy vs. Bangel threads open. And if you ever want to talk about something specific that you don't see an open thread on, you can always pose the question. You do not have to wait on others to post it first.

 

[EarthLogic]

@dcai0830 'mocking cynicism' may be too strong a term, but I definitely think there was something there; I just can't quite work out what. I dunno, maybe I've just grown cynical about Joss after what happened with S8. Not sure I can ever forgive him for that.

This is evident when he says "That vocal minority who care about Buffy and Angel meant that we had to do service by him." (Also side note F you Joss...)

😀

It's no secret that Joss didn't want Angel to be a long term love interest for Buffy. From the get go, he wanted him in and out after Becoming. He thought the story was done after that.

He also wanted Spike dusted and out in S2, but changed his mind after seeing how fans took to him. Absolutely the writing sometimes takes on a life of its own, but Joss has been oddly resistant to some organic possibilities of B/A while happily championing Spuffy.

I have no doubt that Angel and Buffy had semblance of what was going on each other's lives to some extent or another although we were not shown that to be the case. They are both warriors fighting evil in California and they are only like 2 hours away from each other. They probably interact with the same demons and they talk. I'm sure Giles and Wesley would call each other to compare notes. We saw Cordy and Willow talking about computer stuff from time to time. I head canon that Angel had some idea or heard rumors that Spike had been neutered or ensouled and maybe even heard through the grapevine that Buffy was sleeping with Spike. I also understand Angel's jealousy and I have no doubt that if they were talking about Darla/Cordy/Nina, Buffy would show jealousy too. But maybe I just personally relate to their characters feeling this way so it worked for me. Alot of times people say, Angel is better than that or its OOC of him to act childish. But these are human emotions. He still has feelings for her and he has a history with Spike and I completely understand him being petty about it.

In a perfect world all of these revelations would have been given more time and space. So I agree with you on that front for sure. It was condensed.

Yes headcanon is the only way to make sense of it. I understand him being petty and jealous too, but like you say because it was so condensed with little context it comes across as a really odd reaction to hearing about a suddenly souled Spike, when you take it just as it was shown on screen. It only works with headcanon in there to fill the gaps. But good point about the time constraints - I guess that was a factor too.

I think sometimes people think that Bangel fans want Angel and Buffy together frolicking and sparkling in a beautiful green pasture with not a care in the world. B/A fans are told to "grow up" because the kind of love that Angel and Buffy had is not realistic. And as you say above the relationship fails because Buffy and Angel cling to this idealization of each other. And if the Buffy and Angel relationship had stopped at Surprise (Buffy/Angel snuggling post coital bliss END SCENE THE END). Then I could totally see where they are coming from. But you are missing the second half of the story here. Nothing post Surprise is easy for the two. (Angelus' words/actions, Buffy's killing Angel, Angel's suicidal attempt, Buffy's reluctance to be close to him, Buffy forcing Angel to drink her nearly to death, Angel leaving Buffy, Angel giving up a chance at humanity with Buffy, Buffy and Angel fighting over the Faith situation). Buffy says as much in Chosen "What was the highlight of our relationship, when I killed you or when you left me."

FYI that was me paraphrasing the meta-writer's argument - which is obviously coloured by Spuffy-bias and IMO betrays a cynicism itself, whether intentional or not (but that's to be expected). I think there is idealisation early on but Surprise/Innocence shatters that. The writer's argument was that the idealisation continues throughout the show, which I strongly disagree with.

What I find INCREDIBLY ironic about the argument of "the realness/messiness" of Spuffy is that Spike and Buffy's relationship in the comics in Season 11 anyway has become somewhat unrealistically ideal, little conflict, little attention to their past and how it would/should affect their issues with each other.

Me too! One of the shipper arguments against Bangel being together has been that it would be unrealistically ideal (basically what Joss has always said: happy = boring b/c nowhere to go), but now that Spuffy are in a comfortable warm fuzzy place, people are talking about weddings and babies! 😵

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Sorry for the late reply, I had exams.

I did read your posts and they were antagonizing. Something that would ignite ship war. But, I personally do not want to get into explaining why since it seems that others have already done so while I was absent, and you seem to have left the conversation.

And there are plenty Spike vs. Angel and Spuffy vs. Bangel threads open. And if you ever want to talk about something specific that you don't see an open thread on, you can always pose the question. You do not have to wait on others to post it first.

I didn't think they were antagonizing at all, but hey, that's your opinion and that's cool. Again, thanks for letting me know that I can open a thread on any subject I want. I would rather be able to participate in any thread I want... the purpose of the Back Steps was to not say anything negative about the Bangel ship. I still don't see where I did. But thanks for responding nonetheless.

 

[EarthLogic]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

Definitely sarcasm

 

[Mrs Gordo]

And I mean come on... don't you want to see these two adorable kids fight and make up ??

I know I do.... 🙂 Le sigh.