Arguments against Bangel that annoy you

[DeadlyDuo]

Yeah, your opinion on Clara is the most popular. My opinion on Clara:

Imagine if there were 49 seasons of AtS before Buffy Summers was introduced. How would people think of her, near the beginning of her journey, in Welcome to the Hellmouth? If she became leader of the Scooby Gang years after Angel had become leader of the Fang Gang?

How would people think of Clara Oswald if there were 3 seasons of Clara Who before Doctor Who premiered and if DW was a spinoff of her show? How would people think of Angel if Graduation Day #2 was the last we saw him and AtS never happened?

Liam was born in 1727 and didn't interact with Buffy until 1997. That is 270 years of experience, death, sex, adventures, and trauma before he ever walked down that alleyway in Sunnydale. But we know he is soulmates/OTP with Buffy because he was introduced on BtVS, her show, in the same episode we meet her. Angel didn't get his own show---becoming the lead---until years later. We found out about his past through flashbacks and his ex lovers & enemies started popping up after his relationship with Buffy began.

I think Moffat was saying that Clara was always half of the story, we just didn't get to find out in the same way as Bangel. It turned out that Clara has been out there in her own tardis with companions doing what the Doctor does in her own way. I like that her story didn't end because the Doctor isn't there to see it just like BtVS didn't end when Angel left and just because Buffy didn't get to watch AtS doesn't mean it didn't happen. We don't get to watch a Clara Who spinoff but she is out there getting her Buffy on.

To be clear though....

Buffy >>> anyone I've compared to her

A spinoff is completely different to a main show and thus your examples don't work eg The Sarah Jane adventures and Doctor Who- The Doctor even guest stars in some episodes of SJA. A more accurate portrayal of the Clara/ Doctor dynamic with the Buffy characters would be thus:

Imagine you get several good Seasons of Buffy and various companions saving the world. Enter the latest companion and it's Kennedy. Suddenly Buffy can no longer save the day, Kennedy is the one who always comes up with the solution. There is even an episode where Kennedy's actress is credited before SMG and Buffy is hardly in that episode at all. Gradually Buffy becomes a supporting character in the show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer and everything is about Kennedy and how wonderful Kennedy is. Buffy is nearly killed trying to stop a planet sized parasite from devouring a civilisation full of sentient beings by sacrificing all her memories but she's not good enough to do it on her own, instead Kennedy has to save the day with a leaf and a story about her parents.

 

[EarthLogic]

And I mean come on... don't you want to see these two adorable kids fight and make up ??

I know I do.... 🙂 Le sigh.

Which comic season was that from?

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Which comic season was that from?

BTVS Season 10 - Old Demons, Issues 16-18.
The first time Buffy and Angel have seen each other since the Twilight fiasco.
And the last time they saw each other.

 

[EarthLogic]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. My point is that if Buffy can't love Spike as he is, then she shouldn't love him at all and Spuffy should've ended. It shouldn't be a case of he has to get a soul before she deems him acceptable to love. That's almost like someone saying that they will only love you if you dye your hair a certain colour and if you don't then you are not acceptable for them to love.



Lol

Buffy: Hi, I that you've just newly risen from you're grave. I just want to ask you a couple of questions before we proceed from there. First question: On a scale of 1-10, 1 being not at all and 10 being a sure bet, how likely is it that you're going to commit an evil deed?

Vampire: Um........5 I guess.

Buffy: Ooh 50/50 I like it! Second question: If you had the choice between pushing an old lady down some stairs or carrying her up those same stairs, which would you do?

Vampire: Oh I'd definitely push her down those stairs, then carry her back up them so I could push her down again.

Buffy: Honesty, nice. I don't meet many honest vamps in my line of work. Last question: You come across an abandoned child, what do you do?

Vampire: Eat them.

Buffy: Ok, that concludes our Q&A. Hey, look over there! (Stakes vampire) Another one bites the dust!

Question should be: 'If you were chipped and couldn't bite people anymore, would you consider getting back your soul if I had sex with you - 'cause, you know, I'm really hot!

 

[Mrs Gordo]

@DeadlyDuo @crazysoulless @NileQT87 Just to avoid confusion on the "other show relationship comparisons conversation" do you all want to maybe start a new thread? It sounds like there is alot to say on the subject. Just a suggestion! 🙂 I know I went off on that tangent as well by talking about the OUAT and Espensen...

 

[DeadlyDuo]

crazysoulless: I don't think being unable to love a soulless mass murderer is quite the same as not loving someone who has a weird hair color

It's difficult to explain but I'll try. Spike is a soulless mass murderer, Angel is a souled mass murderer. The only thing that makes them different is a soul so the mass murdering part is cancelled out. Why should Spike have to change being soulless, something which has never bothered him before, all so that he is more "acceptable" to Buffy? Why can't Buffy either love him soulless or not love him at all?
 

@DeadlyDuo @crazysoulless @NileQT87 Just to avoid confusion on the "other show relationship comparisons conversation" do you all want to maybe start a new thread? It sounds like there is alot to say on the subject. Just a suggestion! 🙂 I know I went off on that tangent as well by talking about the OUAT and Espensen...

I don't think it's really a prolonged conversational piece but more something was only brought up in regards to Bangel.

 

[EarthLogic]

BTVS Season 10 - Old Demons, Issues 16-18.
The first time Buffy and Angel have seen each other since the Twilight fiasco.
And the last time they saw each other.

Oh yeah, I remember seeing panels of those. I hated the sound of it - everyone was so friendly by the end - urgh!

And also there was the panel of Buffy's goodbye peck on the cheek which had the WORST rendering of Angel I have EVER seen* - I mean, I didn't think it was possible for a human face to look like that! I'm still haunted by it.

*barring the art for Angel: Aftermath, which we shall not speak of here - *shudders*

Grace: I put the winky face! 😉

Heh, soz, misinterpreted the wink.
 

One of the shipper arguments against Bangel being together has been that it would be unrealistically ideal (basically what Joss has always said: happy = boring b/c nowhere to go), but now that Spuffy are in a comfortable warm fuzzy place, people are talking about weddings and babies! 😵

@dcai0830 further to this here's what Joss said in Salon:

Q: Often what the fan base wants is for two characters to get together romantically, but that often doesn't leave the narrative with anyplace to go.

A: It's Sam and Diane [from "Cheers"]. That's why we had Angel go bad when he and Buffy got together. Because -- and I've gotten into so much trouble for this phrase -- what people want is not what they need. In narrative, nobody wants to see fat, married Romeo and Juliet, even if fat, married Romeo and Juliet happen to be [Dashiell Hammett's detective couple] Nick and Nora Charles and they're really cool and having a great time in their lovely relationship and really care about each other and have nice, well-adjusted children. Guess what? People don't want to see it.

Earth to Joss: Nobody's actually asking for that!

 

[crazysoulless]

It's difficult to explain but I'll try. Spike is a soulless mass murderer, Angel is a souled mass murderer. The only thing that makes them different is a soul so the mass murdering part is cancelled out. Why should Spike have to change being soulless, something which has never bothered him before, all so that he is more "acceptable" to Buffy? Why can't Buffy either love him soulless or not love him at all?
 


I don't think it's really a prolonged conversational piece but more something was only brought up in regards to Bangel.

If the soul was as nonsequential to his morality as it is for some people (Hitler for example) then I can see why she shouldn't make it a prerequisite for her love. But the lack of soul is why he didn't feel remorse murdering people. He could never truly understand Buffy if he had a physical inability to understand what she feels as a souled ethical human.

How is Angel a mass murderer? Because of what happened with Twilight? Or the WR&H lawyers? Or the criminals he fed on in 1898-1900?

 

[DeadlyDuo]

If the soul was as nonsequential to his morality as it is for some people (Hitler for example) then I can see why she shouldn't make it a prerequisite for her love. But the lack of soul is why he didn't feel remorse murdering people. He could never truly understand Buffy if he had a physical inability to understand what she feels as a souled ethical human.

How is Angel a mass murderer? Because of what happened with Twilight? Or the WR&H lawyers? Or the criminals he fed on in 1898-1900?

I'm talking about his Angelus days. I'm not saying Soulless Spike and Buffy should be in a relationship, far from it, obviously their different morality outlooks are incompatible. What I am saying though is that someone shouldn't have to change a part of themselves, a part they've had no issues with before, just to please someone else and be accepted by them.

 

[RomanticSoul]

But the lack of soul is why he didn't feel remorse murdering people.

Arguably he didn't feel remorse with a soul either. Except for what he did to Buffy...well when he wasn't victim blaming her that is.

He could never truly understand Buffy if he had a physical inability to understand what she feels as a souled ethical human.

Which still begs the question...why would a demon with no conscience fall in love with a souled human?

What I am saying though is that someone shouldn't have to change a part of themselves, a part they've had no issues with before, just to please someone else and be accepted by them.

I'm with you there. Either someone loves you for you or that so called love is meaningless. If you have to change who you are just to be with someone...in the real world that never works out.

 

[EarthLogic]

Which still begs the question...why would a demon with no conscience fall in love with a souled human?

Well firstly it depends what you define as 'in love' when concerning a soulless demon. I'd say it's a 'love' characterised by obsessive lust. In which case when it comes to why - well, why not? He's clearly attracted to her physically so he desires her. Like any other stalker he exists outside her life so has no knowledge of who she really is and operates under the illusion that her beating him up a lot is indicative of her desire for him (which it really isn't until s6). Conscience doesn't really come into it - in fact it makes him a more persistent stalker because he feels no guilt about pursuing her and continues even when she tells him to get lost.

Then there's also the sex/violence thing vampires have. For Spike especially those two impulses are what drive him most so when the chip stops him from carrying out violence, it makes sense that his impulses would be channelled sexually.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Just an aside:

There seem to be a lot of good tangent discussions happening here, but let's move them to their own threads, and make sure we're sticking to the topic of this thread which is "Arguments against Bangel that Annoy You."

Also, if you feel something someone has posted is anti-Bangel, please report it and the mods will have a look, instead of taking it to the thread itself. I honestly did not see anything that contravened the rules, but we are happy to take another look. But it is better to do it that way rather than starting arguments in the thread.

Further, I even made a thread for people that don't ship any ship to discuss things, but it got closed down.

No, you made a club, that is not the same thing. All unapproved clubs are closed, as per the board rules.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Just an aside:

There seem to be a lot of good tangent discussions happening here, but let's move them to their own threads, and make sure we're sticking to the topic of this thread which is "Arguments against Bangel that Annoy You."

Also, if you feel something someone has posted is anti-Bangel, please report it and the mods will have a look, instead of taking it to the thread itself. I honestly did not see anything that contravened the rules, but we are happy to take another look. But it is better to do it that way rather than starting arguments in the thread.



No, you made a club, that is not the same thing. All unapproved clubs are closed, as per the board rules.

There were some antagonizing posts about pro-Spike and pro-Spuffy as well as people using the arguments against Bangel that we were saying we didn't understand in a thread specifically about what arguments against Bangel bothers you.
I thought we could address certain things without involving mods as long as it could be handled in a civil manner, which I thought it was. I apologize if this assumption was wrong.
I have just seen so many posts in the Bangel section lately that are unnecessary and it's beginning to get grating to the point the Bangel section does not even feel like the Bangel section anymore.
Idk about other pro-Bangel people, but I know that I personally stay out of the Spuffy section out of respect even if I have something to contribute. I know that Bangel vs. Spuffy conversations are to be had in the Lover's Walk forum. At least this was my understanding.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

So here is an argument against the ship that I personally struggle with:

Angel loved Buffy more than she loved him.

Now, it’s hard to quantify love. So this is tough. But I do know that even lobotimized Season 7 Buffy says:

“I loved him more than anything I will ever love in this life”. Then in Season 8 she calls him the love of her life. So I tend to feel that Buffy loves Angel to the maximum of her capacity to do so. She essentially placed her life at risk to heal him in Graduation.

But she was able to have other relationships whereas Angel didn’t/doesn’t seem to be able to do so as well. So hmmm... does Angel love her more? Can we even know? Does that even matter?

 

[Taaroko]

Considering that Buffy is more of an extrovert than Angel, I wouldn't necessarily say that having more other relationships means she loves Angel less than he loves her. Also, it seems like his curse makes him think relationships aren't worth the risk (at least when the writers aren't conveniently forgetting about that to push Cordy/Angel). And Angel does date Nina, who kinda seems like his equivalent of a Riley.

 

[BuffyBot22]

So here is an argument against the ship that I personally struggle with:

Angel loved Buffy more than she loved him.

Now, it’s hard to quantify love. So this is tough. But I do know that even lobotimized Season 7 Buffy says:

“I loved him more than anything I will ever love in this life”. Then in Season 8 she calls him the love of her life. So I tend to feel that Buffy loves Angel to the maximum of her capacity to do so. She essentially placed her life at risk to heal him in Graduation.

But she was able to have other relationships whereas Angel didn’t/doesn’t seem to be able to do so as well. So hmmm... does Angel love her more? Can we even know? Does that even matter?

Funny you bring this up, because I have actually seen the opposite argument against Bangel: Buffy loved Angel more than he loved her.

I just don't buy that. I always felt the love between them was equal regardless of which argument was being used.

Buffy let him almost drain her of all her blood just so she didn't have to watch him die.

Maybe Buffy went on to have other relationships, but none of them were successful. She wasn't able to tell another man she loved them. Comics don't count in my head lol. I always felt that her relationships failed because she couldn't let go of Angel, which she clearly had not because in s7 as you mentioned she said she loved him more than she will ever love anything in this life. That's a pretty strong statement.
Then when he showed up in End of Days/Chosen she implied that she still thinks of him as her future.

I always felt like Angel didn't try to have other relationships because he knew if he ever was to feel that happy again he would just ruin another girls life. He didn't want that. (Idt he ruined Buffy's life, but I feel like sometimes that's how he feels).
And I think a part of Angel knew he would probably never feel that type of love for someone again, so what's the point in having a half glass empty kind of love.
Buffy kept dating because she was trying to be normal, which is what Angel wanted for her. But, just because she dated other people doesn't mean she loved Angel less than he loved her.
And just because Angel walked away from Buffy so she could have a normal life, does not mean Angel loved Buffy less than she loved him. I think that means he loved her enough to want more for her.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Some arguments against Bangel are down right diluted. I read on tumblr something along the lines of:

When Buffy came back from the off screen meeting she tells her friends or was intense but her body language says otherwise. You could tell she she felt nothing for Angel anymore.

Really? The text is telling you the opposite the big greasy comfort food is telling you the opposite, in All the Way a few episodes down the line she looks sad when Amya talks about spending your life with the person you are meant to be with (which the shooting script literally says hits Buffy in the Angel parallels), then she says she loves him more than anything in S7, kisses him in Chosen, has sexy dreams of him in S8 and then space sex with him, and tells us in S10 that she is confused about her feelings for him.

Oh yeah but totally over him... 🙄

 

[EarthLogic]

When Buffy came back from the off screen meeting she tells her friends or was intense but her body language says otherwise

How exactly do they expect her body language to reflect that intensity then? 😕

'Oh, the pain! The pain!'

 

then she says she loves him more than anything in S7,

You're gonna hate me for this but technically she says 'loved', which if I were to play anti-Bangel could be taken to mean that she did love him more than anything but not necessarily that she will never love anyone else again. I don't even know why I'm nitpicking this; I love that line anyway...ok, you can hit me now.

has sexy dreams of him in S8 and then space sex with him, and tells us in S10 that she is confused about her feelings for him.

Meh, comics Buffy is a whole other person to me.* In S8 she goes straight from having sex with him to having sexy dreams of Spike, then in S10 she's confused about her feelings even though she's with Spike at that point? (Unless she said that in S9??). FFS just make your mind up, woman!

*Though you could argue that the flip-flopping started in 'End of Days/Chosen'

 

[Taaroko]

The way I read the "I loved him more than anything I will ever love in this life" line is Buffy giving us a snapshot of her feelings in "Becoming: Part II." It's not a commentary on her current feelings, it's her arguing that Xander has no leg to stand on regarding Anya, when Buffy was able to do the right thing even though her soulmate's life was the price. So it's kind of cool that even as jaded as Buffy is in S7, she hasn't retroactively muted the intensity of her relationship with Angel in her mind and heart. And yeah, any remaining doubt should be resolved by the way she looks at him and kisses him without hesitation in "End of Days"/"Chosen."

 

[Mrs Gordo]

You're gonna hate me for this but technically she says 'loved', which if I were to play anti-Bangel could be taken to mean that she did love him more than anything but not necessarily that she will never love anyone else again. I don't even know why I'm nitpicking this; I love that line anyway...ok, you can hit me now.

True what that line says to me is up until that episode and that moment in S7 she hasn’t loved anyone as much as him. And at that time,she can’t concieve of the fact that she will ever love anyone that much. Now this may be different in S11. Who knows.

And listen the thing about that line is she is talking about a past event when she killed him. “I loved him and I killed him.” So while I agree it doesn’t speak to her current feelings it doesn’t out right negate that she still loves him. I’m otherwords the argument I hear a lot is that she chose the word “loved” because it’s not how she feels now. I think she chose the word “loved” because she is talking about a past tense event.

Yes it’s s10 she says she is confused re Angel feelings. She has never really chosen in as much as being with Spike currently is a choice but then again it’s not like Angel’s come to her and said: can we try this out?