As a Bangel Shipper which of these "other" ships bothered you the most?

[Taaroko]

I think the reason Angel/Cordy has a slight edge on Spuffy in the votes is that while Spuffy is super unhealthy and abusive, it's not an actual threat to Buffy/Angel. Buffy isn't falling in love with someone else. Angel/Cordy, on the other hand, however forced and badly written it is, attempts to position Cordelia as Angel's true epic love. Which is nonsense.

Like everyone else here, I found all variations of Angel/Darla deeply fascinating and compelling. I will always root for Buffy/Angel, but I actually did want to see more Angel/Darla stuff, and that's about as close to multishipping as I ever get.

And dang, @Carrie Hopewell, I never put it together that the writers were trying to make Angel/Cordy work by turning her into Buffy and him into Xander, but it's so true. *shudder* Dork!Angel drove me crazy. Angel was at his funniest in S1, when he was a deadpan snarker who was very uncomfortable in social settings, and that didn't detract from his coolness factor at all. A certain level of dorkiness is only to be expected once he becomes a dad and there are obligatory dad jokes, but what we got was ridiculous.

 

[Kairos]

Man I remember talking to someone at some point about the writers trying to turn Cordy into Buffy, but Angel into Xander just explains everything.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I think the reason Angel/Cordy has a slight edge on Spuffy in the votes is that while Spuffy is super unhealthy and abusive, it's not an actual threat to Buffy/Angel. Buffy isn't falling in love with someone else. Angel/Cordy, on the other hand, however forced and badly written it is, attempts to position Cordelia as Angel's true epic love. Which is nonsense.

Like everyone else here, I found all variations of Angel/Darla deeply fascinating and compelling. I will always root for Buffy/Angel, but I actually did want to see more Angel/Darla stuff, and that's about as close to multishipping as I ever get.

And dang, @Carrie Hopewell, I never put it together that the writers were trying to make Angel/Cordy work by turning her into Buffy and him into Xander, but it's so true. *shudder* Dork!Angel drove me crazy. Angel was at his funniest in S1, when he was a deadpan snarker who was very uncomfortable in social settings, and that didn't detract from his coolness factor at all. A certain level of dorkiness is only to be expected once he becomes a dad and there are obligatory dad jokes, but what we got was ridiculous.

I totally agree with you here.

The writers were trying to make Cangel bigger than Bangel. It fundamentally did NOT make sense....

And even if the writers were trying to do that with Spuffy, they epically failed.
Buffy never looked like she felt anything for Spike other than disgust (pre-soul) and pity (post-soul)

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I think the reason Angel/Cordy has a slight edge on Spuffy in the votes is that while Spuffy is super unhealthy and abusive, it's not an actual threat to Buffy/Angel. Buffy isn't falling in love with someone else. Angel/Cordy, on the other hand, however forced and badly written it is, attempts to position Cordelia as Angel's true epic love. Which is nonsense.

Basically this. 100% this. This is gonna be a long one so settle in ...

I voted for Spuffy and Cangel (despite my hate of Scott Hope he was of no consequence). I wish I would have made this a one vote only quiz now so I could see how Spuffy and Cangel compare, especially for Bangel shippers.

Thoughts on Spuffy: Spuffy always bothered me much less than Cangel. I could see Spuffy coming from a mile away at the beginning of Season 5. I go back and watch Season 4 and now I think the writers already knew what they wanted to do way back then but Spike was always going to be the guy that Buffy slept with and that was fine by me. The Season 6 Spuffy doesn't bother me one bit. Its a depressed girl in her 20's making bad decisions. I have been there myself before, totally get it. Its not epic love stuff, its a symptom of her depression, her isolation, her sadness. Spuffy was always written to respect how Buffy felt about Angel.

"A vampire got me hot. One. But he's gone. You're just... You're just convenient."

Even in Season 7 she says that she loved Angel more than she will love anything in this life. So while the Spuffy stuff is gearing up for the Season 7 silliness, Angel's place in her heart is addressed and respected.

My dislike of Spuffy probably doesn't really reach any type of significance until Chosen when she effectively sends Angel away for Spike. It was narratively necessary so I get it. She has feelings for Spike at that time and I respect that as well. Having Angel there would be weird BUT once again, the moment she sees Angel her face lights up and she kisses him. Bangel respect. Now the comics are a different story and if I include the comics into my Spuffy analysis the scales do tend to even out a bit but Cangel still holds the edge and here is why.

Thoughts on Cangel: I still remember watching Season 3 of Angel for the first time and feeling absolutely SLAPPED IN THE FACE by Cangel. I had no idea it was coming, I did not read the signs, I obviously had not read the interviews or the behind the scenes stuff. Just a girl sitting in her dorm room (I didn't watch it when it aired it was a few years later I got into Angel) and then BAM I'm hit with Offspring and Waiting in the Wings and I'm like WHAT THE EVER LIVING F??? I felt like I missed something with all of the Fred and Lorne stuff about Kyrumption and Moira. Not only was it rushed it came on the heals of Buffy's death and resurrection. Its just TWO episodes from Fredless to Offspring and in Offspring we are already in the throws of Cangel. The timing could not have left a more sour taste in my mouth. The only way to read that is that Angel doesn't care that Buffy is back from the dead he is going to pursue his feelings for Cordy.

Whereas Spuffy addresses the "Angel" thing during the course of its relationship (see even the Comics where Buffy has to talk Spike down in Season 10 when Angel is coming to visit). Neither Angel nor Cordy EVER discuss Buffy within the context of the relationship. She is just the giant elephant in the room. It seems the writers decided that it needed to be ignored for the Angel and Cordelia stuff to happen. But for me as a Bangel shipper it leaves me confused, where does Angel stand on Buffy during this time? Does he no longer have feelings for Buffy, does he still love her but he knows it can't happen, is he trying to ignore that Buffy even exists - I have no clue what is going on in Angel's head with regards to his feelings for Buffy and if I'm looking at his actions alone it looks like the guy has just moved right along rather suddenly.

While I agree with the others that the whole relationship seemed rather "forced", this is the only other relationship outside of Bangel that mirrored the stuff of "great love." Sure they have to mold and twist these characters we know and love to get there but they have this passionate scene in Waiting in the Wings (probably more than we ever saw SMG and DB do), they have this sweet "family" dynamic with Connor, they have this romantic "I'll meet you at the Bluffs" discussion wherein we are lead to believe they were both going to confess their love?, Angel loses his soul by imagining a perfect day that includes sleeping with Cordelia. This wasn't written as a rebound (Riley) or a bandaid (Spike), this arc was written to replace Bangel and that was the most heartbreaking thing to me. Glad it didn't succeed though... 😉 Also, very happy that Angel never told Cordy he loved her.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Basically this. 100% this. This is gonna be a long one so settle in ...

I voted for Spuffy and Cangel (despite my hate of Scott Hope he was of no consequence). I wish I would have made this a one vote only quiz now so I could see how Spuffy and Cangel compare, especially for Bangel shippers.

Thoughts on Spuffy: Spuffy always bothered me much less than Cangel. I could see Spuffy coming from a mile away at the beginning of Season 5. I go back and watch Season 4 and now I think the writers already knew what they wanted to do way back then but Spike was always going to be the guy that Buffy slept with and that was fine by me. The Season 6 Spuffy doesn't bother me one bit. Its a depressed girl in her 20's making bad decisions. I have been there myself before, totally get it. Its not epic love stuff, its a symptom of her depression, her isolation, her sadness. Spuffy was always written to respect how Buffy felt about Angel.

"A vampire got me hot. One. But he's gone. You're just... You're just convenient."

Even in Season 7 she says that she loved Angel more than she will love anything in this life. So while the Spuffy stuff is gearing up for the Season 7 silliness, Angel's place in her heart is addressed and respected.

My dislike of Spuffy probably doesn't really reach any type of significance until Chosen when she effectively sends Angel away for Spike. It was narratively necessary so I get it. She has feelings for Spike at that time and I respect that as well. Having Angel there would be weird BUT once again, the moment she sees Angel her face lights up and she kisses him. Bangel respect. Now the comics are a different story and if I include the comics into my Spuffy analysis the scales do tend to even out a bit but Cangel still holds the edge and here is why.

Thoughts on Cangel: I still remember watching Season 3 of Angel for the first time and feeling absolutely SLAPPED IN THE FACE by Cangel. I had no idea it was coming, I did not read the signs, I obviously had not read the interviews or the behind the scenes stuff. Just a girl sitting in her dorm room (I didn't watch it when it aired it was a few years later I got into Angel) and then BAM I'm hit with Offspring and Waiting in the Wings and I'm like WHAT THE EVER LIVING F??? I felt like I missed something with all of the Fred and Lorne stuff about Kyrumption and Moira. Not only was it rushed it came on the heals of Buffy's death and resurrection. Its just TWO episodes from Fredless to Offspring and in Offspring we are already in the throws of Cangel. The timing could not have left a more sour taste in my mouth. The only way to read that is that Angel doesn't care that Buffy is back from the dead he is going to pursue his feelings for Cordy.

Whereas Spuffy addresses the "Angel" thing during the course of its relationship (see even the Comics where Buffy has to talk Spike down in Season 10 when Angel is coming to visit). Neither Angel nor Cordy EVER discuss Buffy within the context of the relationship. She is just the giant elephant in the room. It seems the writers decided that it needed to be ignored for the Angel and Cordelia stuff to happen. But for me as a Bangel shipper it leaves me confused, where does Angel stand on Buffy during this time? Does he no longer have feelings for Buffy, does he still love her but he knows it can't happen, is he trying to ignore that Buffy even exists - I have no clue what is going on in Angel's head with regards to his feelings for Buffy and if I'm looking at his actions alone it looks like the guy has just moved right along rather suddenly.

While I agree with the others that the whole relationship seemed rather "forced", this is the only other relationship outside of Bangel that mirrored the stuff of "great love." Sure they have to mold and twist these characters we know and love to get there but they have this passionate scene in Waiting in the Wings (probably more than we ever saw SMG and DB do), they have this sweet "family" dynamic with Connor, they have this romantic "I'll meet you at the Bluffs" discussion wherein we are lead to believe they were both going to confess their love?, Angel loses his soul by imagining a perfect day that includes sleeping with Cordelia. This wasn't written as a rebound (Riley) or a bandaid (Spike), this arc was written to replace Bangel and that was the most heartbreaking thing to me. Glad it didn't succeed though... 😉 Also, very happy that Angel never told Cordy he loved her.

Perfect Analysis!

I do have one thing to say because I just watched Chosen yesterday.
I can see how to Angel and maybe even to the audience that she is sending Angel away because of her feelings for Spike, but I personally think just the opposite. I believe Buffy was sending Angel away because of her feelings for him. She wanted to send him away to protect him from this fight that she thought she wasn't going to survive. Who else does Buffy try to send away? DAWN (her baby sister, the only other person alive that she loves just as much if not more than Angel). She sends away the people she CANNOT bare to lose/watch die.
I think she also sent him away, because she knows he is her best bet at a second chance of beating the First if she and her army die. She believes Angel is a true champion, more so than she believes in Spike.
Spike literally burns to flames and Buffy smiles at the end bc he atoned for his sins/became a better person. But, if she really loved him she would have been heartbroken that he just died.
Buffy could barely breathe when Angel left Sunnydale (he didn't even die) and when she killed him, she had to leave Sunnydale.
So I whole heartedly believe she wanted Angel to leave because of her love for him and she knew the only way to truly get him to leave was to hint at her feelings for Spike (while she may have had some confused feelings for him at the time, those feelings were not love). Even before Angel left she basically said once she is done growing up- she wants to be with Angel.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Perfect Analysis!

I do have one thing to say because I just watched Chosen yesterday.
I can see how to Angel and maybe even to the audience that she is sending Angel away because of her feelings for Spike, but I personally think just the opposite. I believe Buffy was sending Angel away because of her feelings for him. She wanted to send him away to protect him from this fight that she thought she wasn't going to survive. Who else does Buffy try to send away? DAWN (her baby sister, the only other person alive that she loves just as much if not more than Angel). She sends away the people she CANNOT bare to lose/watch die.
I think she also sent him away, because she knows he is her best bet at a second chance of beating the First if she and her army die. She believes Angel is a true champion, more so than she believes in Spike.
Spike literally burns to flames and Buffy smiles at the end bc he atoned for his sins/became a better person. But, if she really loved him she would have been heartbroken that he just died.
Buffy could barely breathe when Angel left Sunnydale (he didn't even die) and when she killed him, she had to leave Sunnydale.
So I whole heartedly believe she wanted Angel to leave because of her love for him and she knew the only way to truly get him to leave was to hint at her feelings for Spike (while she may have had some confused feelings for him at the time, those feelings were not love). Even before Angel left she basically said once she is done growing up- she wants to be with Angel.

And I tend to you agree with you on this view as well. In fact, Buffy says "Cause I can't risk you" (while it seems to be in the context of the second front I truly believe it is much more than that). I do get the feeling that given that she doesn't know what the necklace does and she doesn't know if she will win sending him away is all she can do to protect him. But textually, the conversation leads us to believe that Spike is a factor in the consideration for sending Angel away. That is certainly what Angel seems to think during the conversation. Joss tells us exactly what he wants us to think, and he pretty much accomplishes it in my opinion, Buffy and Angel are not over, they are for the ages and transcend everything but Spike is, for reasons that escape my me entirely, in her heart presently.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

First of all, I cannot BEAR seeing Angel and Cordy together romantically. It's unnatural and annoying. (I especially hated it when Cordy used the phrase, "...a whiny little cry-Buffy." (Buffy was many things, but whiny?! Nope. Miss Chase whined more than ANYBODY, except Dawn and Connor)

Basically, Angel/Buffy and Spike/Dru are the only couples I fully approve of. And I can't help but giggle at the term "Dangel."

 

[EarthLogic]

Even the big speech in Touched, while sweet, is a remix of Angel from Earshot and Riley from As You Were.

I should start out by saying I don't particularly like thinking about ships as 'threats' to others because it makes discussions feel uncomfortably antagonistic and tribal, and it feels unfair to the writers whose job it is to try and tell new stories in interesting ways (even if sometimes they fail spectacularly *cough*Cordy/Angel*cough*). But onto the question at hand:

Buffy/Spike: what bothers me is the execution rather than the per se; the way they had to take illogical leaps and contrivances in order to keep Spike around and how some glaring issues were never adequately addressed. I also had a problem with the way the darker aspects of the relationship was being romanticised by some writers even as it was being condemned by others. Again read inconsistency.

Buffy/Riley: I can't say I 'enjoyed' it because let's face it Riley was pretty bland, but it was a relationship that needed to happen, a story that needed to be told since Buffy had to try and move on. If you're going to use the 'threat' angle then it never really was a threat since it was clear Buffy couldn't bring herself to fully invest in it.

Angel/Nina & Buffy/Scott : Meh, never amounted to anything, but was never meant to. They were just about the characters trying to live normal, undramatic lives for a change.

Angel/Darla ('Dangel'. really?) was genuinely fascinating because it developed organically from the connection between them and was always intended to be the antithesis of Buffy/Angel. And it wasn't really a ship but an exploration of Angel's past and how that influences his character. Most of all it was brilliant storytelling.

HOWEVER, if Darla was resurrected with a soul and syphilis wasn't about to kill her again, I would have absolutely zero complaints if she and Angel attempted a relationship. I love her and her two redemptions. Angel's love of his life is Connor and I would love to see Darla given a chance outside of being a ghostly visitor to get to be a mother and get the love she so craved in life.

I think we should just let her soul rest in peace for once! 🙂Poor woman doesn't need to be resurrected a fourth time! I think she was redeemed enough through her love for Connor ('It's the one good thing we ever did together'....*sniffs*excuse me while I go dry my eyes..)

Angel/Cordy is where I go 'wha-huh?' It was just bizarre. First there was the timing, so close to Buffy's death which the show didn't even address fully from Angel's POV, then there was 'kyrumption' - I'm surprised Angel's head didn't hurt as mine did because both him and the viewers were practically smacked over the head with it. It came from out of nowhere and it was odd that people had to tell him that he had feelings for her. He can be dense at times but knows what it's like to love, so I don't understand how he wouldn't know instinctively. The whole thing felt very forced and didn't develop organically out of their platonic/familial relationship. I liked slightly dorky Angel. It seemed like a natural result of him interacting more with (happy) people. His 'man...pire' awkwardness was cute and in character IMO. It was later on that it just got OTT. I think it may have also been a fault of the writers/directors in allowing David's own personality to influence the character too much.

The Bluffs thing was also like something out of a cheesy romance movie with the requisite last-minute airport dash where one half of the couple rushes to tell the other how they truly feel before their moment is Lost. For. Ever. Why on earth did they need to go all the way there to meet anyway? Also, phantom Cordy. PHANTOM CORDY!😕😵

 

[Mylie]

Basically this. 100% this. This is gonna be a long one so settle in ...

I voted for Spuffy and Cangel (despite my hate of Scott Hope he was of no consequence). I wish I would have made this a one vote only quiz now so I could see how Spuffy and Cangel compare, especially for Bangel shippers.

Thoughts on Spuffy: Spuffy always bothered me much less than Cangel. I could see Spuffy coming from a mile away at the beginning of Season 5. I go back and watch Season 4 and now I think the writers already knew what they wanted to do way back then but Spike was always going to be the guy that Buffy slept with and that was fine by me. The Season 6 Spuffy doesn't bother me one bit. Its a depressed girl in her 20's making bad decisions. I have been there myself before, totally get it. Its not epic love stuff, its a symptom of her depression, her isolation, her sadness. Spuffy was always written to respect how Buffy felt about Angel.

"A vampire got me hot. One. But he's gone. You're just... You're just convenient."

Even in Season 7 she says that she loved Angel more than she will love anything in this life. So while the Spuffy stuff is gearing up for the Season 7 silliness, Angel's place in her heart is addressed and respected.

My dislike of Spuffy probably doesn't really reach any type of significance until Chosen when she effectively sends Angel away for Spike. It was narratively necessary so I get it. She has feelings for Spike at that time and I respect that as well. Having Angel there would be weird BUT once again, the moment she sees Angel her face lights up and she kisses him. Bangel respect. Now the comics are a different story and if I include the comics into my Spuffy analysis the scales do tend to even out a bit but Cangel still holds the edge and here is why.

Thoughts on Cangel: I still remember watching Season 3 of Angel for the first time and feeling absolutely SLAPPED IN THE FACE by Cangel. I had no idea it was coming, I did not read the signs, I obviously had not read the interviews or the behind the scenes stuff. Just a girl sitting in her dorm room (I didn't watch it when it aired it was a few years later I got into Angel) and then BAM I'm hit with Offspring and Waiting in the Wings and I'm like WHAT THE EVER LIVING F??? I felt like I missed something with all of the Fred and Lorne stuff about Kyrumption and Moira. Not only was it rushed it came on the heals of Buffy's death and resurrection. Its just TWO episodes from Fredless to Offspring and in Offspring we are already in the throws of Cangel. The timing could not have left a more sour taste in my mouth. The only way to read that is that Angel doesn't care that Buffy is back from the dead he is going to pursue his feelings for Cordy.

Whereas Spuffy addresses the "Angel" thing during the course of its relationship (see even the Comics where Buffy has to talk Spike down in Season 10 when Angel is coming to visit). Neither Angel nor Cordy EVER discuss Buffy within the context of the relationship. She is just the giant elephant in the room. It seems the writers decided that it needed to be ignored for the Angel and Cordelia stuff to happen. But for me as a Bangel shipper it leaves me confused, where does Angel stand on Buffy during this time? Does he no longer have feelings for Buffy, does he still love her but he knows it can't happen, is he trying to ignore that Buffy even exists - I have no clue what is going on in Angel's head with regards to his feelings for Buffy and if I'm looking at his actions alone it looks like the guy has just moved right along rather suddenly.

While I agree with the others that the whole relationship seemed rather "forced", this is the only other relationship outside of Bangel that mirrored the stuff of "great love." Sure they have to mold and twist these characters we know and love to get there but they have this passionate scene in Waiting in the Wings (probably more than we ever saw SMG and DB do), they have this sweet "family" dynamic with Connor, they have this romantic "I'll meet you at the Bluffs" discussion wherein we are lead to believe they were both going to confess their love?, Angel loses his soul by imagining a perfect day that includes sleeping with Cordelia. This wasn't written as a rebound (Riley) or a bandaid (Spike), this arc was written to replace Bangel and that was the most heartbreaking thing to me. Glad it didn't succeed though... 😉 Also, very happy that Angel never told Cordy he loved her.

You are making me see things a lot differently. I'll have to rewatch to make up my mind, but I do think there's something here. I guess I was more against Spuffy because I don't like the way it impacted Buffy's character and that was the biggest annoyance to me, but it's true that there's never a doubt when it comes to her feelings for Angel. It's more complicated on Angel's side. And I guess Cangel also had an impact on Angel's characterization, so it does kind of annoy me but I don't think it was as intense and drastic as Buffy's.

Perfect Analysis!

I do have one thing to say because I just watched Chosen yesterday.
I can see how to Angel and maybe even to the audience that she is sending Angel away because of her feelings for Spike, but I personally think just the opposite. I believe Buffy was sending Angel away because of her feelings for him. She wanted to send him away to protect him from this fight that she thought she wasn't going to survive. Who else does Buffy try to send away? DAWN (her baby sister, the only other person alive that she loves just as much if not more than Angel). She sends away the people she CANNOT bare to lose/watch die.
I think she also sent him away, because she knows he is her best bet at a second chance of beating the First if she and her army die. She believes Angel is a true champion, more so than she believes in Spike.
Spike literally burns to flames and Buffy smiles at the end bc he atoned for his sins/became a better person. But, if she really loved him she would have been heartbroken that he just died.
Buffy could barely breathe when Angel left Sunnydale (he didn't even die) and when she killed him, she had to leave Sunnydale.
So I whole heartedly believe she wanted Angel to leave because of her love for him and she knew the only way to truly get him to leave was to hint at her feelings for Spike (while she may have had some confused feelings for him at the time, those feelings were not love). Even before Angel left she basically said once she is done growing up- she wants to be with Angel.

Yes!!!

Those are in my opinion the 2 people Buffy loves the most (s2 and s5 being parallels seasons is not a coincidence) and that's how I always interpreted it too.

 

[Grace]

I should start out by saying I don't particularly like thinking about ships as 'threats' to others because it makes discussions feel uncomfortably antagonistic and tribal, and it feels unfair to the writers whose job it is to try and tell new stories in interesting ways (even if sometimes they fail spectacularly *cough*Cordy/Angel*cough*).

Since you quote me there, did you think I was being antagonistic and unfair to the writers with that comment? (I'm seriously asking, not trying to be sarcastic or anything.)

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I don't particularly like thinking about ships as 'threats' to others because it makes discussions feel uncomfortably antagonistic and tribal...

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I should start out by saying I don't particularly like thinking about ships as 'threats' to others because it makes discussions feel uncomfortably antagonistic and tribal,

In all fairness this is the Bangel section so if we are going to be antagonistic to other ships this IS the place to do it! 😉
 
@Grace you absolutely weren't what you posted was perfectly fine. And while I can't speak to @EarthLogic I'm sure she just meant when we start talking about ships v ships things can get testy. But if we are going to get testy about non-Bangel ships, I'd say this is the proper arena to do it!

 

[Grace]

@dcai0830 Thanks! Since I haven't posted here much, I want to make sure I'm not out of line 🙂

 

[Bite-me]

I would have absolutely zero complaints if she and Angel attempted a relationship. I love her and her two redemptions. Angel's love of his life is Connor and I would love to see Darla given a chance outside of being a ghostly visitor to get to be a mother and get the love she so craved in life.

Buffy and Angel had closure, Darla and Angel were two people who could never be together despite loving each other. It was truly a tragedy. I would love a alternative Season story where Darla is saved from Wolfram & Heart, restored half-way between being mortal and immortal (vampire with a soul was kind of Angel's thing / well it was) A little domestic story of them trying to be a couple for Connor's sake, is so sad but beautiful too.

 

[EarthLogic]

Since you quote me there, did you think I was being antagonistic and unfair to the writers with that comment? (I'm seriously asking, not trying to be sarcastic or anything.)

No! Absolutely not! I was merely referring in general to the language sometimes used when comparing ships. Totally didn't mean it in an accusatory way, sorry if it came across like that. 😳

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Darla and Angel were two people who could never be together despite loving each other. It was truly a tragedy

Can I ask why you think Angel loved Darla? I never saw any evidence of that. I saw him try and save her sure. I saw that their relationship was complex and twisted with the sire/mother aspect but Angel pretty much hates what he is and Darla is what made him that way. He tells her point blank that he could never have loved her when he was a Demon. Just curious about what your take was on them loving each other and not being able to be together.

 

[BuffyBot22]

Buffy and Angel had closure, Darla and Angel were two people who could never be together despite loving each other. It was truly a tragedy. I would love a alternative Season story where Darla is saved from Wolfram & Heart, restored half-way between being mortal and immortal (vampire with a soul was kind of Angel's thing / well it was) A little domestic story of them trying to be a couple for Connor's sake, is so sad but beautiful too.

I'm also curious as to when you believe Bangel got closure?
Sure they broke up, but to me there was never any closure. They were 2 souls desperately in love with one another but could not be together due to circumstances. To me that is the exact opposite of closure. So I'm just honestly curious when you thought they got closure?

 

[Bite-me]

@dcai0830, @BuffyBot22, Right. Their relationship was complex, love is a multifaceted thing and then the question of vampire love but Darla's undying love/devotion is similar to Spike, his devotion to Drusilia and then Buffy, which gives credence to what Drusilia claimed. Darla definitely hates Angel and despite that, still loves him.

Angel is a Spike mirror in "Darla" "You disgust me" is "You're beneath me", cut to the present day and he still can't let Darla go even though he knows he should, he is a "Fool For Love" and the devotional love Darla has as a "returned vampire/then human/then vampire again" makes her a kindred spirit to Spike in a way.

Angel hates what he is and Darla is what made him that way. Correct, he could never love Darla when he was a demon, at least not what is called pure unselfish love but he is not solely a demon anymore and as we saw he cares deeply for her and couldn't let her go, even when it was the right and sane thing to do, he had a passionate irrational need to save her and it tore him up inside, I'd call that love.

I'd say two people who wanted the same thing, to love each other and couldn't have it is tragic. It's indisputable Buffy and Angel have each others love and have each other as old lovers and old friends who are still around. I am reminded of "People enter your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime" Bangel could be seen as all three. Every romantic relationship one ever has will come to an end, until the day one doesn't, no vampire is required but because Buffy and Angel's day came, does not make their relationship a failure. Whether or not Buffy marries or falls in love again or never does, doesn't change the fact that for the both of them, it will remain, one of their most successful love relationships in its own, everlasting way.

As Harmony told Wesley "The girl you loved, loved you back" I feel as if, does Darla ever get that? I don't think Angel and Darla's hearts ever truly mended and now can't, not ranking the ships but to me it is more tragic. In a alternative version of events, if Angel could in the present day, love and be loved by Darla in the healthy moral sense, maybe he could reconcile himself and hate himself a little bit less

 

[NileQT87]

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that Angel loved Darla when she was willing to die her natural human death in The Trial (Darla even makes a comment about how she feels cared about the way no one has ever cared) and when she gave up her life out of love (her first time that she loved something greater than herself) to give Connor life. This was also Darla's act of love for Angel, by giving him the child he never thought he could have, but so desperately wanted (going back to his statements in Bad Eggs, The Prom and War Zone).

While Angel's desperation to save Darla was also his attempt to prove that he, himself, was worthy of being saved, it also meant something else to Darla. Angel taught Darla what selfless, sacrificial love and being cared for really was and felt like. She learned from him, shown by her act in Lullaby.

I have no difficulty believing that Angel loved Darla at the end of Lullaby and was perhaps even getting there at the end of The Trial in Darla's last human moments. Darla's whole story going back to her days as a prostitute was believing that nobody had ever cared about or loved her. She was desperate to feel that with Angelus even after she was a vampire, but of course, he was incapable of it just like she was. But with the souls, that made a difference and her story was about learning what selfless love greater than for yourself was and feeling it for the first time in her entire life. Angel very much treated Darla with a soul in an entirely different way than when she was soulless, just as there was a difference between Angelus and Angel. Their relationships were different.

I realize we're Bangels here, and I am, too, but I don't agree that we have to reduce what Angel with a soul felt for Darla with a soul during her redemptive sacrifices.

 

[Taaroko]

Oh, I fully believe that Angel loved Darla when he went through the Trials for her. However, I don't think he was ever *in* love with her. That was pure agape.