As a Bangel Shipper which of these "other" ships bothered you the most?

As a Bangel Shipper which of these "other" ships bothered you the most?

  • Buffy and Spike (Spuffy)

    Votes: 34 52.3%
  • Buffy and Riley (Briley)

    Votes: 13 20.0%
  • Angel and Cordy (Cangel)

    Votes: 35 53.8%
  • Angel and Darla (Dangel)

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • Angel and Nina (Nangel?)

    Votes: 11 16.9%
  • Buffy and Scott Hope (Scuffy)

    Votes: 9 13.8%

  • Total voters
    65
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I think Darla's story ended perfectly. It works because it wasn't drawn out any more than it needed to be, and I wouldn't want it any other way. As I said above, I personally don't consider it a 'pairing' in the same way as the others, though perhaps there are those who might.

And I know you mentioned that maybe putting them on the poll was questionable because of the fact that maybe they weren't a pair. I guess I put them in because they slept together while Angel was ensouled and she had his kid so that is some time of a relationship if anything it is at least physical. I will say that I think Julie Benz and DB had great chemistry that goes back all they way to BTVS Season 1 episode 7 (Angel). And after seeing them try and pair DB with people like Kate, the alien from She and the actress, it was nice to finally see him with someone where there was a spark (outside of course of SMG!).

Ooooh should I have included Angel and Kate?! lol - I think I did right by NOT including them.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
I'm glad you did NOT include Kate!
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
Kate had Buffy like traits, so no.
Oh @TriBel in case the tone of my karma message didn't come across correctly, I'll add a jokey smiley 😛

It did come through - thanks and don't worry.🙂 I was just responding with "LOL - I see your point! Nah...feel free to like it! TBH, he's very vampiric - Spike's "I go were I want and I take what I want" could be his mantra".

In truth, the only time it causes me a problem is when people claim the ability to empathise is a defining characteristic of being human. I actually had a conversation about this with a (well published) Psychologist at work. She thought the ability to universalise empathy was a luxury only afforded to people in the west. I tend to agree.🙂 And I'm digressing as usual!
 
I would not take the word of a soulless vampire about whether soulless vampires can love, because they are incomplete beings and rather biased in their own favor.

I disagree. I think a soulless vampire is the one you should be listening to on whether a soulless vampire can love. The only difference is what a soulless vampire considers love and what a souled being considers love. Just because a soulless vampire's version of love is different from a souled being's version of love, doesn't mean that a soulless vampire is wrong when they say they can love.

Turning her into a monster is not evidence of love, it's horrifying. Human William hopefully would've recognized that he was damning her and that what came back wouldn't really be his mother. I think that particular act was the soulless manifestation of the unhealthy level of attachment he felt for his mother in life, not his love for her.

Spike's whole reasoning for siring his mother was to make her well. It was certainly flawed logic but his reasons for doing it were out of love rather than malice.

We only know he felt "affection and jealousy." The Judge would've called it love if that's what it was. (And I say this as a lifelong Spike/Drusilla shipper.)

Affection is a part of love. I think soulless vampires are capable of a form of love, even if it doesn't meet a souled being's standard on what classifies as love.

Then why do vampires tend to kill their loved ones first? I think they can enjoy the company of people who benefit them in some way, but it's always going to be very selfish. Hence Spike's flippant attitude about torturing Dru or manipulating her with a love potion, not to mention that he wanted to stake her as a big show of his devotion to Buffy (but only if Buffy actually appreciated the significance of it).

I don't think Spike would've staked Dru if Buffy had called him on it. He was going for a big sweeping romantic gesture, the symbolism of which would only work if he still cared for Dru deeply. He still talks about her fondly in Season 7. Dru either appears in flashback or Spike mentions her in every season that he is in, she is still very much on his mind.

(I don't read the comics so for me the Buffyverse ended at the end of AtS Season 5).

I think the biggest surprise of this poll has been the support for Dangel despite the name from Bangel folks. I never bothered much for the pairing but I am surprised to see the support for it. I can't help but wonder if they had continued to develop the relationship into something more along the lines of Spuffy if people would still feel as strongly about the pairing.

Dangel works perfectly with Bangel as a love triangle because you've got Angel's past (Darla) vs his present/future (Buffy). Both ships work well and make sense within their own right much like Woz and Tillow. Also a big factor is probably that both Buffy and Darla are likeable characters. Darla and Buffy are not a Kennedy so there is no "what the hell does he see in her?", instead it's I can see why he and Darla would be good together and I can see why he and Buffy would be good together etc. I think fans would be happy if Angel ended up with EITHER Buffy or Darla, they don't care which so long as it is one of them two.

I'm not surprised by the Cangel dislike but I wonder if any Bangel folks out there root for Cangel if so speak up! I would love to hear that perspective.

*crickets*
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
I will never get Tillow.
And I know you mentioned that maybe putting them on the poll was questionable because of the fact that maybe they weren't a pair. I guess I put them in because they slept together while Angel was ensouled and she had his kid so that is some time of a relationship if anything it is at least physical. I will say that I think Julie Benz and DB had great chemistry that goes back all they way to BTVS Season 1 episode 7 (Angel). And after seeing them try and pair DB with people like Kate, the alien from She and the actress, it was nice to finally see him with someone where there was a spark (outside of course of SMG!).

Ooooh should I have included Angel and Kate?! lol - I think I did right by NOT including them.
I suppose they are a pairing in all the ways you mention, I just meant that I feel like they also exist outside of 'shipping' (for me at least) because their relationship is all about their history. When I watch them there isn't the sense of will they/won't they and 'are they going to end up together', it's more 'they did and how does this inform who they are'. Does that make sense?
 
Taaroko
Taaroko
Ooh, I really like this. It's true; we don't really think about Angel and Darla in a sense of "are they going to be together?", we mainly just think about how they've influenced each other.
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Yes I like it - "they did"
I suppose they are a pairing in all the ways you mention, I just meant that I feel like they also exist outside of 'shipping' (for me at least) because their relationship is all about their history. When I watch them there isn't the sense of will they/won't they and 'are they going to end up together', it's more 'they did and how does this inform who they are'. Does that make sense?

I think Darla is a temptation for Angel in the sense that, because of their history, she is trying to lure him back to the darkness whereas Buffy is beckoning him towards the light. Angel is having to fight that temptation within himself, the soul prevents him from giving in, but that desire is there eg when we see him feed on that armed robbery victim during the 70s. There is like a sin/virtue thing going on with Darla and Buffy respectively. Darla represents everything Angel shouldn't want but a part of him desires whereas Buffy represents everything he should aspire to yet is always just out of reach.
 
Even Spike says he didn't love Buffy when he was soulless! It seems you gain some perspective after you have a soul....

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Of course Buffy doesn't believe him LOL. But OH Well...

Ugh that scene... I have no idea who that Buffy is but it's certainly not the one I fell for.
 
I think the biggest surprise of this poll has been the support for Dangel despite the name from Bangel folks. I never bothered much for the pairing but I am surprised to see the support for it. I can't help but wonder if they had continued to develop the relationship into something more along the lines of Spuffy if people would still feel as strongly about the pairing.

I'm not surprised by the Cangel dislike but I wonder if any Bangel folks out there root for Cangel if so speak up! I would love to hear that perspective.

Before my rewatch, I hadn't seen the show in 10 years so all I remembered feeling strongly about was Bangel. I didn't even know how I was going to feel towards Spuffy so even less Cangel. During my rewatch of seasons 1 and 2 of AtS, I found myself having a lot of positive feelings towards Cangel and I was kind of looking forward to see the relationship develop. Then s3 happened and everything about romantic Cangel felt so forced and wrong and just awkward for me to watch. So as someone who absolutely loved the potential, the execution made me very bitter, to a point where it tainted the friendship a bit for me. I still love their friendship and You're Welcome does leave me with a general positive feeling, but where I definitely could have been onboard with the relationship, it ends up being one of my least favorite things AtS has done. And it sucks because I was very open to it.
 
Taaroko
Taaroko
RIGHT?!
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
I never liked the Cangel potential.
Darla *used to be* a temptation towards darkness, but her arc most certainly didn't go in that direction. On the contrary, it became Angel teaching Darla what love really was and saving her soul in the process, ending with her redeeming herself twice in acts of love. Dangel is NOT Spuffy. It's not even Sprusilla.

And no, soulless Spike and Drusilla aren't capable of real selfless love (agape). Jealousy and affection, as the Judge put it.

With Drusilla, she runs to protectors who punish her for her perceived sins. She's stuck in that mode because of her abusively religious upbringing by her mother (blamed for her visions as a sign from God), which is what Angelus used to break her. Angelus latched onto Drusilla's mother situation when he told her to do those acts of contrition, followed by her believing she needs to be punished all the time before she will receive love. Spike even knows this when he says that in order to win her back from the Chaos demon, he's going to find her and torture her. Drusilla believes that punishment = love. Also, as a particularly fragile vampire, Drusilla needs and wants others to protect and care for her.

On soulless Spike's end, it's all about obsession and getting something he wants with little care for the other's feelings or well-being. It's always selfish with him. With Spike's mother, this storge mania is actually quite malignant to start with, but the human William would never have thought vampirism and damnation to the be same thing as 'saving' Anne Pratt by turning her into something that no longer is even her. That's the demonic vampire's twisting of leftover memories and emotions into its own form of procreation and survival (Jossverse vampires are nothing but animalistic predators in their pure form). This is no different than Darla telling freshly-risen Angelus that killing Kathy, the symbol of Liam's only non-eros feelings of love (storge), was an act of love. Angelus then becomes the enemy of love.

But nobody would accuse Angelus of not continuing to feel eros, just as Darla saw it as her former profession and thus an expert. Darla also saw Angelus as her great protector because of her extreme fear of death (just as the Master was when she couldn't have Angelus, who also provided her with "the view"). She desired for him to fulfill the love she had never had, yet didn't really understand how it wasn't real love because both were incapable. She was so desperate to prove that she was loved that she even tried to get soulful Angel back twice by making him prove it. Only her desire to be loved overruled her sense of self-preservation (which is why she left herself wide-open to Angel when he killed her for Buffy, followed by her eventual redemptive sacrifices).

No, ensouled Darla and Angel (as well as Spike when he's not listening to Buffy's delusional garbage like that comic) are much better experts on the subject of what vampires are capable of in terms of love. Angel, in particular, is an expert in agape and Darla also comes to understand it and act on it. Soulless Spike and Drusilla are highly unreliable on the subject. Vampires understand the likes of eros, pragma and mania, even storge and philia on some level that are usually leftovers from the human host, but never agape.
  • Eros: Love of the body. The first kind of love was eros, named after the Greek god of fertility, and it represented the idea of sexual passion and desire.
  • Philia: Love of the mind. Philia, or deep friendship. Also know as brotherly love, philia represents the sincere and platonic love.
  • Ludus: Playful love. Ludus refers to playful love where there is no commitment.
  • Pragma: Longstanding love. Pragmatic, practical, mutually beneficial relationship.
  • Agape: Love of the soul. The highest form of love, charity. Universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance.
  • Philautia: Love of the self.
  • Mania: Obsessive love.
  • Storge: Love of the child. Means "love, affection" and especially of parents and children.
 
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Vampires understand the likes of eros, pragma and mania, even storge and philia on some level that are usually leftovers from the human host, but never agape.

That's what I said.

I think vampires can feel love. As Drusilla herself said in Crush, "we can love quite well.....if not wisely". However, I think they're limited in the types of love they feel.

We know Spike still cared for his mother after he was sired and we know he felt a great love for Drusilla (the show should've kept them together IMO), I think what soulless vampires don't feel is Agape, they don't care for anyone outside their loved ones.
 
Before my rewatch, I hadn't seen the show in 10 years so all I remembered feeling strongly about was Bangel. I didn't even know how I was going to feel towards Spuffy so even less Cangel. During my rewatch of seasons 1 and 2 of AtS, I found myself having a lot of positive feelings towards Cangel and I was kind of looking forward to see the relationship develop. Then s3 happened and everything about romantic Cangel felt so forced and wrong and just awkward for me to watch. So as someone who absolutely loved the potential, the execution made me very bitter, to a point where it tainted the friendship a bit for me. I still love their friendship and You're Welcome does leave me with a general positive feeling, but where I definitely could have been onboard with the relationship, it ends up being one of my least favorite things AtS has done. And it sucks because I was very open to it.

How do you think they could have done it better? What kind of a Cangel relationship could you have bought into?
 
How do you think they could have done it better? What kind of a Cangel relationship could you have bought into?

I think they should have kept playing with it in a "more than friends but not soulmates" way, and definitely not have shoved it down our throats out of nowhere (well it was there but it all happened too fast, it didn't feel organic). I think part of it also comes from DB and CC's chemistry working better as platonic. It's really weird because you'd think those 2 would look amazing together but they just look awkward, and not the cute kind of awkward I love.

So in the end, I think it was both the writing and lack of chemistry. Both things just felt forced, like the writers and actors weren't really into it.
 
I think part of it also comes from DB and CC's chemistry working better as platonic. It's really weird because you'd think those 2 would look amazing together but they just look awkward, and not the cute kind of awkward I love.

Agree - do I need to post the WitW gif again for good measure? LOL.
 
Mylie
Mylie
God please no!!! Lol
To be fair, she did not say Spike always good in that strip but that there was good in him. @Mylie, I watched "Expecting" a few months ago and realized Wilson was the only person Cordelia looked great with. She did not get any good romances, she was under utilized in that department. I liked her sparring with Gunn, missed opportunity there.

@BuffyBot22 , a lot has come in between Angel and Buffy breaking up in Graduation Part 2, they are both alive with the knowledge of having their love returned. There is the day Angel spent as mortal, on his side. There is the conversation in "End Of Days" and all those in between. They can call each other up and take comfort/solace in each other if need be. I do not think either is bleeding on the inside when they meet up these days you know what I mean.

It was a metaphorically tragic ending more so then literal and it works because every one can relate to those feelings when a relationship ends.
 
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BuffyBot22
BuffyBot22
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then! But thank you for explaining (:
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
Grumblegrumble Joss' treatment of Charisma grrrrrrrr
Personally. I think it's difficult to use the Greek definitions of love (indeed, any definition of love) and ignore the explicitly Freudian frameworks both Angel and BtVS emerge from. It's difficult to avoid Freud with any vampire story.
Eros: Love of the body. The first kind of love was eros, named after the Greek god of fertility, and it represented the idea of sexual passion and desire
Okay but Eros (the life drive - it's not simply lust - it's a lust for life) is sometimes accompanied be Thanatos (the death drive). When it is, it's destructive. If not it's creative. What we see in S6 is destructive - in S7 creative (Spike is figured as Eros in both seasons). Personally, I find it telling to use the version of Eros told by Aristophanes. I'm wondering whether there's a relationship between Eros and Pandora in S11. Darla - to my mind, prostitution has nothing to do with Eros - it's sex not love - certainly not passion.

Storge: Love of the child. Means "love, affection" and especially of parents and children.
. Difficult to use this term when the relationship between William and his mother is figured as Oedipal. The same with Liam's killing of Kathy - it doesn't really accommodate strategies such as displacement, misidentification etc. What happens to Anne Pratt is simply an actualisation of the child's love and hatred for the mother - just as Angelus' killing of his father is an actualisation of an unconscious wish and leads to over-identification with the tyrannical father. Vampire relationships are extreme because they're not bound be the Law qua Superego as humans are (they ignore the taboo element) but they're only different in degree to human relationships. Most of the main characters have problematic parental relationships that determine their decisions. Beyond this - you have to consider the form these imaginary relationships take in the symbolic.

Agape: Love of the soul. The highest form of love, charity. Universal, unconditional love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance.
There is an argument as to whether agape is achievable on earth or whether it's utopic. The problem with it is, it has an abject underside. When do we see Angel involved in - quite literally - transcendent or higher love? Unconditional - regardless of circumstances? The premature utopianism of Twilight (a tyrannical father whose desire is to birth a new universe where he gets to keep the mother for himself). That aside, to presume Agape is to presume Buffy is the real object of his desire and his desire is "untainted" - I don't think it is. To take it back to the question, if I were a Bangel shipper (I don't "ship" as such - it's ultimately form that interests me*), it's Cangel that would worry me. Twilight happens twice a day - light slipping into dark - dark slipping into light. Angels tend to fall (he's done this) or be raised. I can - quite honestly - see Angel elevated to the pantheon and I wonder whether the comics (which make perfect sense to me in terms of kernel events) are taking it in this direction now? Much depends on how Angel's therapeutic journey is resolved.

*Full declaration - I have a vested interest in Spike (in terms of what he represents) but not particularly in Spuffy. I've tried to keep it neutral. If this bothers you I'm happy to have the post deleted. 🙂
 
Liam's killing of Kathy
Should read Angelus.
 
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VisionGirl
VisionGirl
[No message]
When do we see Angel involved in - quite literally - transcendent or higher love? Unconditional - regardless of circumstances? The premature utopianism of Twilight (a tyrannical father whose desire is to birth a new universe where he gets to keep the mother for himself).

The Twilight justifications are so murky that I don't feel able to debate them intelligently 🙂, but I certainly thought we saw Angel demonstrate a transcendent love well before that in The Trial, when he was willing to sacrifice his own life for Darla's. Did you also see that as tainted in some way?
 
The Twilight justifications are so murky that I don't feel able to debate them intelligently 🙂, but I certainly thought we saw Angel demonstrate a transcendent love well before that in The Trial, when he was willing to sacrifice his own life for Darla's. Did you also see that as tainted in some way?

I didn't mean tainted in a totally negative way (which is why I put untainted in "") and it wasn't meant to be a negative comment about Angel. I suppose the closest you get is the argument about whether there can be a truly altruistic act. Twilight in the way it was portrayed was ludicrous but the concept of premature utopianism is, I think, inferable. As I said...it will be interesting to see how the comics pan out. 😉
 
Grace
Grace
Oh, yeah, I didn't mean tainted as necessarily bad either. I should've used quotes too :)
Twilight isn't in character. It literally goes against Angel's entire characterization for 8 seasons.

The stupid OOC comics also pull weird sh!t out of their behinds like Willow saying Angel hasn't changed since the 1920s, yet I can show a bunch of flashbacks and the actual series that proves her to be an idiot. Same as Buffy turning into an idiot about the mythology of her own show just to support soulless Spuffy against even what Spike is saying there. Spuffies are always wanting it both ways: Spike was always good even when he was murdering orphanages because Spuffies are desperate to consider Angelus and Angel the same character, yet not responsible for the AR just like Angel isn't responsible for Angelus. Huh?

There's no point in considering it or bringing the comics into this thread unless you want to derail the thread for Bangel fans in their private section.

It wasn't William who was oedipal, so much as the demon who killed his mother using this to hurt him. That's what vampire demons do in the Jossverse. They corrupt genuine feelings into the worst perversion of it that they can. The real Anne would never have seen William's devotion to her as such, even if she might have hoped that William would find a wife and be less focused on her (not helped by her TB illness) to the detriment of it.

And there was NOTHING oedipal shown between Liam and Kathy. Kathy was there to show the person Liam had the most genuine affection for and Angelus destroying her. Seriously, where on Earth did you get that bullsh!t from? That was nothing but genuine storge. What a bizarre interpretation.
 
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VisionGirl
VisionGirl
Also OOC when you consider Angel's development in the whole of the IDW comics as well.
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