As a Bangel Shipper which of these "other" ships bothered you the most?

[WillowFromBuffy]

It wasn't William who was oedipal, so much as the demon who killed his mother using this to hurt him. That's what vampire demons do in the Jossverse. They corrupt genuine feelings into the worst perversion of it that they can. The real Anne would never have seen William's devotion to her as such, even if she might have hoped that William would find a wife and be less focused on her to the detriment of it.

According to Freud, the Oedipal complex is universal to all men. All boys lust for their mothers breasts and resent their fathers. Eventually, the lust for the mother is replaced by the lust for other women and the resentment of the father is replaced by a desire to emulate. Freud would say William has an Oedipal fixation, because he is unable to leave his mother for another woman. That does not mean that he wants to have sex with his mother, just that their bound is stronger than it should be.

Women go through the same development, but something something penises and they turn out different.

The Spike/Angel/Drusilla triangle is ultra-Oedipal, but Freud never claimed it would manifest like that.

 

[NileQT87]

Freud has also been largely discredited in the scientific community.

This is really off-topic.

While the Jossverse plays with the oedipal concept, it is mostly as a psychological attack by vicious demons to hurt others with words. See sick-minded Angelus having a go at Connor.

William's feelings for his mother were perverted into this to hurt him by the demon who killed her, but not actually oedipal.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

William's feelings for his mother were perverted into this to hurt him by the demon who killed her, but not actually oedipal.

Freud would say William has an oedipal fixation, because he is too attached to his mother. He would say Spike-with-soul has an oedipal fixation, because he turns Buffy into a mother figure.

Freud coined this term, so if you want to redefine it into an explicit sexual attraction you should make that clear.

 

[NileQT87]

Did you miss the bit where Freud has been discredited in the scientific community? He's considered to have been wrong on just about everything.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost-1055800815

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Did you miss the bit where Freud has been discredited in the scientific community? He's considered to have been wrong on just about everything.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost-1055800815

You are still using his words, though. You could say William does not have a an oedipal fixation, because there is no such thing.

Also, science is lame.

 

[EarthLogic]

Did you miss the bit where Freud has been discredited in the scientific community? He's considered to have been wrong on just about everything.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-freud-still-matters-when-he-was-wrong-about-almost-1055800815

Freud may have been wrong on applying his theories to all of human psychology - e.g. obviously it's ludicrous to think of every man as harbouring an unconscious desire to kill his father and sleep with his mother, but on Buffy we're not dealing with a random scientific sampling of a wide range of people, we're dealing with fictional characters who are often modelled on or intended to subvert archetypes. Some of these archetypes have their roots in the kinds of Greek myths that inspired Freud, and Freud's ideas in turn, whether discredited by the scientific community or not, have permeated Western thought and culture and so no doubt find reflections in modern fiction. So no, I don't think a Freudian reading of some character relationships is necessarily invalid.

 

[NileQT87]

The Freudian reading of Liam and Kathy is nothing more than a Spike fan trying (rather desperately with no evidence) to say, see, Angel, too! With his sister, no less. Zero evidence.

The only oedipal relationship there is the fact that the sire and childe relationship is often spoken of in parental terms. And by this, I mean, the Master --> Darla --> Angelus --> Drusilla --> Spike --> Anne. And notice how it irritates Darla when Drusilla calls her "grandmum". Likewise, Angelus enjoyed hurting Connor with the Laius/Jocasta joke among his many barbs at his team meant to tear them apart and distract them. Same as how vampire!Anne went at Spike with putting his feelings in the worst possible, most hurtful way.

And yeah, it's invalid to say those are the real feelings of the humans (even if Connor was certainly messed up at the time, Jasmine!Cordy wasn't actually his mother and the age gap isn't supposed to be as much as it looks due to the actors), given that we're talking about demons using words that hurt by perverting the relationships had by the humans in question. While William was a mama's boy who fretted over his sickly mother to the exclusion of living his own life, he and Spike both would have been and was horrified by what Anne's demon twisted his feelings into.

You're taking it too far to try to start looking for Freudian feelings in situations where none are there and taking accusations on the parts of Jossverse demons meant to hurt and pervert the truth in the worst way as gospel.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

There's no point in considering it or bringing the comics into this thread unless you want to derail the thread for Bangel fans in their private section.

Agreed. Not everyone has read the comics so for most people the Buffyverse ended at the end of Not Fade Away. The comics are more or less "official" fanfiction (that sometimes gets considered non-canon anyway) that actually make some characters OOC and the art is terrible at times, so much so characters are only distinguishable by their physical features as to who they're meant to be eg Spike and his platinum blonde hair, Willow and her red hair, Xander and his eye patch etc.

It wasn't William who was oedipal, so much as the demon who killed his mother using this to hurt him. That's what vampire demons do in the Jossverse. They corrupt genuine feelings into the worst perversion of it that they can. The real Anne would never have seen William's devotion to her as such, even if she might have hoped that William would find a wife and be less focused on her (not helped by her TB illness) to the detriment of it.

Agreed. I think Anne was concerned by how focussed William was on her ailing health (and she probably knew the TB would eventually kill her) to the exclusion of all else, it was almost like he was in denial and she knew he wouldn't cope well with her passing which is why she was trying to encourage him to make a life for himself.

The only oedipal relationship there is the fact that the sire and childe relationship is often spoken of in parental terms. And by this, I mean, the Master --> Darla --> Angelus --> Drusilla --> Spike --> Anne. And notice how it irritates Darla when Drusilla calls her "grandmum". Likewise, Angelus enjoyed hurting Connor with the Laius/Jocasta joke among his many barbs at his team meant to tear them apart and distract them. Same as how vampire!Anne went at Spike with putting his feelings in the worst possible, most hurtful way.

I agree that vampires twist things into the most malicious way possible in order to cause the maximum amount of hurt and I agree that technically there is the sire (parent)/sired (child) connection between vampires. However, I don't think the Whirlwind's relationships were played that way. Whilst Darla/ The Master had a kind of father/daughter relationship, Darla/Angelus and Drusilla/Spike were played as romantic entanglements rather than parental relationships. Drusilla is the only one that seems to think of Angelus and Darla in a familial way. She never refers to Spike as "son" or herself as his "mother", the closest she ever got was telling Anne that she was "the other that gave birth to your son" However, she still refers to Spike as "YOUR son" to Anne aka Drusilla didn't consider him her son. Dru viewed Spike as a playmate and a lover but never referred to him with a family name unlike with Angelus (Daddy) and Darla (Grandmother).

It certainly does raise some questions about the Angelus/Drusilla "relationship" though. Drusilla refers to him as "Daddy" and if she does genuinely view him as a paternal figure (like Buffy does with Giles) then the whole "relationship" takes on an incestuous abuse vibe because Drusilla does not see Angelus as a lover (like she does with Spike), but as a father. Given the fact that Angelus drove Dru mad and sired her so her torment would last forever, his repeated sexual conquests of her means that Dru is effectively Angelus' eternal victim. She will never ever truly escape him.

William was a mama's boy who fretted over his sickly mother to the exclusion of living his own life, he and Spike both would have been and was horrified by what Anne's demon twisted his feelings into.

Agreed. Spike never thought of his mother in that way and was horrified when she started coming on to him. He was pushing her away from him and the whole experience traumatised him to the point where he repressed it. I doubt he ever spoke of it to anyone, including Dru.

You're taking it too far to try to start looking for Freudian feelings in situations where none are there and taking accusations on the parts of Jossverse demons meant to hurt and pervert the truth in the worst way as gospel.

I agree that Joss and the writers weren't trying to make every detail of the Buffyverse a deep and meaningful one. Sometimes what's on the screen is all there is to it. Tabula rasa is a latin phrase meaning "blank slate" and peddles the idea that good and evil are taught traits rather than an innate quality. The episode of the same name muddies the water on a soulless vampire's capabilities as "Randy" was a soulless vampire who didn't realise he was one (and was thus unaware of the chip) yet he still helped fight the bad guys. I don't think the writers were trying to go all deep and meaningful into to the subject of morality, instead they were writing an episode about memory loss and "Tabula Rasa" kind of sums up the episode because the characters lose their identities and so could be anyone they wanted because they're a "blank slate".[/QUOTE]

 

[Bite-me]

I agree that vampires twist things into the most malicious way possible in order to cause the maximum amount of hurt and I agree that technically there is the sire (parent)/sired (child) connection between vampires. However, I don't think the Whirlwind's relationships were played that way. Whilst Darla/ The Master had a kind of father/daughter relationship, Darla/Angelus and Drusilla/Spike were played as romantic entanglements rather than parental relationships. Drusilla is the only one that seems to think of Angelus and Darla in a familial way. She never refers to Spike as "son" or herself as his "mother", the closest she ever got was telling Anne that she was "the other that gave birth to your son" Angelus (Daddy) and Darla (Grandmother)

The only oedipal relationship there is the fact that the sire and childe relationship is often spoken of in parental terms. And by this, I mean, the Master --> Darla --> Angelus --> Drusilla --> Spike --> Anne. And notice how it irritates Darla when Drusilla calls her "grandmum". Likewise, Angelus enjoyed hurting Connor with the Laius/Jocasta joke among his many barbs at his team meant to tear them apart and distract them. Same as how vampire!Anne went at Spike with putting his feelings in the worst possible, most hurtful way.

Whether you put stock in the Freud's psychology, the sire relationship is very Freudian. As we see them, not every sire-childe relationship ends up as a romance, some will attack their sires like Darla if they were disoriented and angry when turned. As ultimately soulless beings they will kill their sires if the mood/situation calls for it but the strong bond allows more then a few of them to become close and intimate partners (Have we ever seen a vampiric couple that only met each other?) they probably only use their sexuality to do evil outside of the confined sire space where we have seen romance and affectation that should/would out of the possibility for vampires otherwise. (Caring for a sick partner (Spike/Dru)
Jealousy (Spike/Angel) Affectation/Sexuality (Dru/Darla) in other words, vampires would not enact these actions outside of the childe-sire blood line situation.

We do literally do in some sense give birth to our lovers, as they are our other halfs biologically. Freud pointed out or so his theory goes, that is a romance that takes place between mothers and sons, fathers and daughters, our parents are our very first loves, our relationship with them will set the course for all of our relationships, along with how they model romantic/relationships back to us as well.

And yes, to the abusive incestous subtext towards Angelus & Dru, it is way I maintain it would have been a striking blow if W&H had returned Drusilla to human form, as the damaged person she was. She was not Darla, who turned Liam into Angelus, she was not a exgirlfriend, another vampire victim, she was walking monument to Angelus crimes.

 

[TriBel]

Freud has also been largely discredited in the scientific community.

And? Whilst Freud has fallen out of favour with (many, not all) psychologists because you can't submit his theories to rigorous testing, he's an important figure in the arts/humanities and central to much literary/film/feminist/gender theory. “Some of the most important things in human life are just not measurable…like happiness or genuine religious feeling. Freud, though, is particularly useful for gaining insights into questions of human existence.” Freud Is Widely Taught at Universities, Except in the Psychology Department

Laura Mulvey, Kaja Silverman, Teresa de Lauretis and Barbara Creed are leading feminist film scholars who draw on psychoanalysis and whose ideas are relevant to BtVS. The latter in particular focuses on horror film – good luck finding a serious paper on vampires/the monstrous that doesn’t reference Creed. The unconscious; the return of the repressed; Oedipal drama; dreams; narcissism; castration; hysteria; displacement, disguise, and transformation are all intrinsic to BtVS. From Ted (S2) “Xander: Buff, you're lacking evidence. I think maybe we're in Sigmund Freud territory. Willow: He has a point. Separation anxiety, the mother figure being taken away, conflict with the father figure... Buffy: He's *not* my father figure. Xander: Having issues much? Buffy: I am not! ". This is the text engaging in self-reflection (as most postmodernist texts do)

I agree with @Meliza @EarthLogic and @WillowFromBuffy (LOL - "Science is lame"). I wouldn’t claim it’s the only way of engaging with the text but I would suggest that some readings are impoverished because they fail to take Freudian/Neo-Freudian/Jungian/Kleinian/Lacanian/ Kristevian (etc. etc.) criticism into account. Personally, I can’t imagine producing a paper that doesn’t emerge from this nexus. Try reading the following articles – they’re easily accessible. Alternatively, you'll find many psychoanalytical studies on Rhonda Wilcox's excellent Slayage site. www.whedonstudies.tv/slayage-the-journal-of-whedon-studies.html

Returning to the Basement: Excavating the Unconscious in 'Buffy's' Restless
Is Buffy a Lacanian? Or, What Is Enlightenment? – Matthew Sharpe

Also https://people.ucsc.edu/~vktonay/migrated/psyc179d/Psychoanalyse.pdf

I freely admit to being a "Spike fan" but I'm not only a "Spike fan"...and…thankfully…I didn’t start the digression. 🙂

 

[Bite-me]

Thanks Tribel, I would have to recommend Mark Fied's Fragments Of My Imagination: Season 1 blog version of his book "Myth And Metaphor In Buffy" also a big influence on Passion Of The Nerd.

 

[TriBel]

Thanks Tribel, I would have to recommend Mark Fied's Fragments Of My Imagination: Season 1 blog version of his book "Myth And Metaphor In Buffy" also a big influence on Passion Of The Nerd.

Myth and Metaphor - 99p on Kindle - bargain. You're right - it's very good! 🙂

Perhaps someone needs to start another thread - I'm aware this is way off topic. I'd do it but I'm totally inept when it comes to navigating this site! 🙁

 

[TotallySpiked]

To me I always found the worst one Cangel.
Angel and Cordelia had zero chemistry as a couple and they were thrown together for no real reason other than the writers wanted it to happen.
As mentioned previously, Cordelia would never settle for being second best no matter how passive she became as the seasons progressed.
Her and Angel should have stayed as friends. The whole thing felt contrived.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Everytime I do a rewatch, Spuffy gets more and more distasteful. The crescendo is S6, where Spike calls her a bitch about as often as he uses the word love, and psychologically he is abusive and manipulative toward her. How that spells love for anyone I have no idea. I also wonder if any Spuffy had personally been treated like this by someone in real life if they would find it so great. I'm convinced that most Spuffy's simply find Spike attractive and so they cut him all kinds of slack. I find the character funny sometimes, like in Angel S5 and earlier Buffy seasons, but as Spuffy "blossoms" into a wretched and distasteful amorous relationship, I find myself looking forward to non-Spike scenes more and more.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I'm still baffled how anyone can see an Oedipal relationship between Liam and his mother or his sister. From the flashbacks we get, Liam didn't even exchange a word with his mother I think. It's like she doesn't even exist. And the only time I remember seeing him with his sister is when he leaves home. How anyone can get Oedipal from that is beyond me. But hey I'm used to a certain faction in the fandom making up things to blackwash Angel in any way they can or to take him down to Spike's level. Whatever floats on boats I guess. I prefer canon.

I don't think anyone of these ships bothered me because of Bangel because you know, I don't ship it. They bothered me because I love Buffy and Angel the characters. Because it was either OOC for them, done to keep a character relevant in the story or because of network pressure. This is definitely the case for Cangel and Spuffy. And Angel and Buffy were screwed over for these two ships.

I love Angel/Darla for it's complexity. I'm fine with Buffy/Riley and Angel/Nina.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

This is definitely the case for Cangel and Spuffy. And Angel and Buffy were screwed over for these two ships.

I'd say Spike and Cordelia got screwed over as well.

Spike was a fantastic character in Season 2 and Lover's Walk. The Harsh Light of Day and In the Dark are the last time we see pre-neutered Spike. However little by little the writers started chipping away at the character. He was more or less comic relief in Season 4 and that worked fine (though the chip storyline should've been treated more seriously than just an impotence joke), but by the time we get to Season 5, Spike's storyline is literally just about Spuffy and this continues throughout the rest of the series. Spike is my favourite character (because of how great he was in Season 2) but I would've been happy to see him less (so that it would always be nice when he did so up) so long as they could've kept what made him great in Season 2. He should've stayed with Drusilla and they should've both been in Angel for the Darla plot. Not only would we get to see all of the Whirlwind together in present day but it would cause Angel a dilemma as he is split between his old family (The Whirlwind) and his new family (Cordelia, Wesley and Gunn). Spike and Dru should've been used to advance Angel's story rather than Dru just being tossed aside and Spike being forced to be Buffy's lapdog.

Cordelia's character was just completely destroyed, first by Cangel then by the Connor plot. Cordelia used to have a confidence to her where she was nobody's fool. She was humbled by her experience in LA which made her less uppity towards people of lower income since she was now one of those people. This was good character development. She learnt to work as a team and care about other people but then Cangel happened. The real Cordelia would never settle for being second best to someone else. She knows Angel's heart belongs to Buffy and always will. She was there when Angel lost his soul and went evil and killed Jenny, she was worried that he could enter her car because she invited him in one time and wanted to de-invite him from her car, the point is she knows what would happen if Angel had one moment of perfect happiness. For Cordy to be in a relationship with Angel, she's either willingly risking bringing forth Angelus despite witnessing the consequences of that first hand or she's settling for being second best. Neither of which the real Cordelia would do. Cordy then went blonde which looked awful and also has the added connotation that Cordy is changing herself to be more like Buffy in appearance, which again the real Cordelia would never do. The writers tried to big up Cangel as being on the same level as Bangel but the comparison just falls flat because Cordelia is not Buffy and is nothing like her. Trying to force Cordelia to be more like Buffy is just ruining Cordy's character. Then came the Connor plot and what little dignity Cordy had left then just got trampled to death.

Buffy freefalling after her resurrection in Season 6 wasn't a bad storyline in itself, it shows consequences to such a big spell. Her confiding in Spike was a nice touch since he would be the only one who knows what it's like to come back from the dead. However, the sexual "relationship" was just awful and not something Buffy would do even if she was depressed. In "Anne" when she was falling apart after killing Angel and sending him to hell, she couldn't stand to be around her friends but she never jumped into bed with someone she didn't love to "feel" something. Xander and Willow were screwed over in Season 6 with the way they just left Buffy to it after her resurrection. They were worried about her all over the summer between Seasons 2&3 yet when she starts displaying withdrawn behaviour again, they couldn't care less. Xander and Willow were never that self absorbed.

Giles just leaving because he thought Buffy needed to "grow up" was another wildly OOC moment. In Season 5, he was going to leave because he thought he wasn't needed but then stuck around when he realised he was. In Season 6, he was needed more than ever, even more so than in Season 5, yet he decided to leave anyway. Obviously ASH wanted time off so Giles had to be out of the picture, but the writers could've given a better reason for why he had to leave, like maybe there were reports of the potentials being killed off and Giles had to go back to England to assist. He'd tell Buffy he was just a phone call away if she needed him, however when Buffy calls it's a bad connection and she can't get through. Right there you've got Giles out of the picture without him completely abandoning Buffy in her hour of need.

With Angel, I don't think he'd want to enter a relationship given the fact that if he has one moment of perfect happiness then he'll lose his soul and become Angelus. Bangel caught him by surprise so he was too involved there before he realised the risk of losing his soul, however post Buffy Angel knows what might happen. If he doesn't want to lose his soul, then he'd be constantly holding back emotionally which isn't fair on the other person. Angel wouldn't want either situation to happen. Besides the fact that he still loves Buffy, he can't allow himself to fully love someone else or else he risks becoming Angelus.

I love Angel/Darla for it's complexity. I'm fine with Buffy/Riley and Angel/Nina.

Dangel is the only Angel ship that could rival Bangel in my opinion, it's such a natural triangle as Darla represents the darkness of Angel's past whilst Buffy represents the light of his future. Being with Buffy after Shanshuing is ANgel's light at the end of the tunnel. It's natural that the vampire in ANgel would want to return to Darla whilst Angel's soul wants to be with Buffy. There is an organic conflict there where both ships make sense and Angel could go either way depending on the day he had.

Angel/Nina (Nangel?) doesn't have the punch to it that Bangel and Dangel has. Firstly, Nina isn't a "big" character so in the grand scheme of things she's insignificant. Secondly, she was only introduced in the final season of Angel, sometimes it takes the audience a while to take a character to heart so there was no way she was going to compare to Buffy or Darla who the audience had a lot more time to love. Kennedy suffers the same problem in Buffy Season 7. She was introduced in the last season and was given importance despite not earning it at all. The scene where Buffy gets kicked out of her own house could've been absolutely heart breaking (though still annoying since it was her house) if it had just involved the Scoobies. However, because Kennedy initiated it (and all because she wanted a bigger say as she later admitted to Faith) it was infuriating because Kennedy had neither the right nor the status to do that.

Briley was okay in Season 4. However, his behaviour towards her is concerning in Season 5 and makes his actions in the Yoko Factor look even worse than they did originally. In Season 5, Riley is all about control and wanting Buffy to "need" him.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I'd say Spike and Cordelia got screwed over as well.

Well yeah, but this is the Bangel forum so I stick to discussing the ship or their characters. And I don't care about Spike or Cordy enough to be bothered by how they were ruined. Just the negative effect they had on Buffy and Angel.

Buffy freefalling after her resurrection in Season 6 wasn't a bad storyline in itself, it shows consequences to such a big spell. Her confiding in Spike was a nice touch since he would be the only one who knows what it's like to come back from the dead. However, the sexual "relationship" was just awful and not something Buffy would do even if she was depressed. In "Anne" when she was falling apart after killing Angel and sending him to hell, she couldn't stand to be around her friends but she never jumped into bed with someone she didn't love to "feel" something.

I didn't mind Buffy's long depression. I think she was long overdue. I don't even mind her having degrading sex as a result. My problem will forever be that she did it with a soulles vampire. That was so OOC I wouldn't even know where to start explaining it. Maybe part of it was her wish to be dead again, Spike is unpredictable and he could snap and kill her. But that she rolls around in the dirt with him and laughing about his killing days, that's not Buffy. Ever. It was disgusting what they turned Buffy into just to get her on Spike's penis. That was also the moment when Dawnverse!Buffy became dead to me as a slayer and human being. Someone who has no regard for innocent lives and sleeps with someone who would happily murder if he didn't have a choke collar, they shouldn't be a slayer.

And as you said, we have seen Buffy depressed before and she didn't feel the need to jump on some demon's penis, like Ken in 'Anne'. IMO it would have made much more sense for Buffy to turn to mystical drugs (something like Orpheus). She misses heaven and the feeling of peace and quiet and would love nothing more than have that again. She would seek that out rather than go further into hell (meaning Earth is now hell for her and getting with Spike is even hellish-er). Pre-Dawnverse Buffy would never let Spike touch her, no matter how depressed she is.

I consider Dawnverse!Buffy a watered down, plot twisted weakling compared to her canon version. After all Canon!Buffy had nothing but eye rolls and quips for old Windbag (aka The First) whereas Dawnverse!Buffy in S7 said she was terrified of it.

Xander and Willow were screwed over in Season 6 with the way they just left Buffy to it after her resurrection. They were worried about her all over the summer between Seasons 2&3 yet when she starts displaying withdrawn behaviour again, they couldn't care less. Xander and Willow were never that self absorbed.

Without question. They were just as twisted around and OOC just so Buffy has no option but to turn to Spike. It's sickening how much the characters were warped for Spuffy and Spike.

With Angel, I don't think he'd want to enter a relationship given the fact that if he has one moment of perfect happiness then he'll lose his soul and become Angelus. Bangel caught him by surprise so he was too involved there before he realised the risk of losing his soul, however post Buffy Angel knows what might happen. If he doesn't want to lose his soul, then he'd be constantly holding back emotionally which isn't fair on the other person. Angel wouldn't want either situation to happen. Besides the fact that he still loves Buffy, he can't allow himself to fully love someone else or else he risks becoming Angelus.

The easiest relationship for Angel would be a non-serious one, so long as both parties are aware of it. However I'm of the opinion that Angel is incapable of perfect happiness post S2 BtVS. Just knowing what could happen, part of him would always hold back. Once he gets though the stuff he's been through on his own show, it's even less likely. That's why I'm fine with Nina/Angel because for Angel it was not very serious. If that's also enough for Nina, then I'm ok with that relationship.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Everytime I do a rewatch, Spuffy gets more and more distasteful. The crescendo is S6, where Spike calls her a bitch about as often as he uses the word love, and psychologically he is abusive and manipulative toward her.

Interesting discussion going on in the Spuffy section re Season 6 not being all that unhealthy. If you would like a brain anuerysm or two go check it out. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions that is for sure but its hard to argue with the text of the show.

She was there when Angel lost his soul and went evil and killed Jenny, she was worried that he could enter her car because she invited him in one time and wanted to de-invite him from her car, the point is she knows what would happen if Angel had one moment of perfect happiness.

I'm on a Season 3 re-watch and Cordelia's complete lack of empathy for all things Angel post re-ensoulment always has me chuckling to myself. I mean this is going to be Angel's great love? She wants the guy dead. She doesn't give a crap that his soul is restored. I'm surprised Cordy in AtS Season 1 goes and meets up with Angel after how afraid she is of him in BTVS Season 3. She wants to pick up the pitch fork right along with Xander and kill him.

Anyway I KNOW its not fair for me to judge AtS Cordy by Season 3 BtVS Cordy but its kinda interesting to see when I know where the writers are going to go with it.

With Angel, I don't think he'd want to enter a relationship given the fact that if he has one moment of perfect happiness then he'll lose his soul and become Angelus.

Unless Angel knows Cordy won't ever mean perfect happiness. And isn't that just so romantic?

 

[RomanticSoul]

Anyway I KNOW its not fair for me to judge AtS Cordy by Season 3 BtVS Cordy but its kinda interesting to see when I know where the writers are going to go with it.

But the same was true of Angel. The characters were sort of reworked post S3 BtVS. I mean just in the pilot of Angel...he suddenly knows how to use computers when in S2 he had to ask Willow, he knows explosives and wiring, he knows how to drive. And later we learn he knows how to cook. On and on it goes.

I'm kind of ok with that because it was a new show so I accept that. Where I have my issues though is Cordelia being all knowing about Buffy/Angel. Seriously nothing gets my eyes rolling more than that. She was the least involved with that love story. Often not present. And Angel doesn't talk about it. The only one who can maybe claim to be in the know is Willow. And even that's little. It's also why that scene of Cordy and Wesley mocking B/A in 'Fredless' annoys the crap out of me. Sure it's funny, because B/A could be that melodramatic. But this is coming from 2 people who know literally NOTHING about B/A. So them mocking it, probably because that's how they think it was, blech.

Unless Angel knows Cordy won't ever mean perfect happiness. And isn't that just so romantic?

Haha. Ouch. And burn.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Anyway I KNOW its not fair for me to judge AtS Cordy by Season 3 BtVS Cordy but its kinda interesting to see when I know where the writers are going to go with it.

Well they are supposed to be the same character...... maybe Cordy got hit in the head off screen and suffered amnesia?

Unless Angel knows Cordy won't ever mean perfect happiness. And isn't that just so romantic?

And Cordy agrees to that. The hit in the head off screen theory is growing stronger by the minute.