As You Were

[Fake Shemp]

he really did need to leave... or i might have wrote angry letters (kidding) i really liked him season 4, felt it was harsh on him being buffy's 'joe normal' ordinary guy. once he got all insecure it got irritating, not that i didnt understand it but it was good to see him again, really good.

 

[hyperballadbrad]

I've never been keen on this epsiode but i do like the fact that the Buffy/Riley story came to something more conclusive for Buffy! When he left in S5 it was pretty gut wrenching.... however annoying i thought Riley's character was!

 

[white avenger]

I can't ever watch this episode without getting that same feeling that people get when they talk about Kennedy, Dallas, and the grassy knoll. There just has to be something here that we aren't being told. First off, the Suvolte demon. For such a supposedly vicious demon, it never seemed to attack anyone as much as it just tried to escape. Also, the Suvolte eggs. No animal that size could possibly lay that many eggs of that size in a close enough span of tine that they would all begin to hatch simultaneously. Also, anyone who knows anything about birds knows that the hatchlings, whatever species they are, are never that energetic right out of the shell, because the act of clawing their way out of the shell leaves them exhausted. Next, those spider like things in no way resembled their supposed parent. They looked more like the things that Mayor Wilkins had to eat in Season 3 in order to become invincible. And finally, Riley's arrival at Spike's crypt was just too well timed. Almost as soon as he makes his dramatic entrance, complete with aimed assault rifle (completely useless against a vampire) and makes his accusations, the bugs start popping out of their shells like popcorn.

The whole thing just looks too contrived, with the only real result being the ending of the Buffy/Spike relationship.

Then, his mission accomplished, and whatever faith and trust Buffy might have felt for Spike almost completely destroyed, Riley soars off into the night sky with his faithful companion, Sam, tucked under his arm. About the only thing missing was the "Hi yo Silver...Awayyyyyyy."

The whole thing just seems like a complete set up with Spike as the patsy. And the worst part was, Buffy just swallowed the whole thing, hook, line, and sinker, without ever allowing Spike the chance to give any real explanation. "Spike can't be the Doctor, he's too stupid." So Spike is automatically the liar, and Riley can tell nothing but the truth.

But I guess that, as someone once pointed out, is no more than simple fan wank. (It still makes perfect sense to me, though)

 

[Blondie Bear]

^ I wondered about all that, too. I guess it's by virtue of only having 45 minutes to get through this storyline, and the writers knew it was time, arc-wise, to break up Buffy and Spike. Personally, I wish they'd sped up Spike's arc a bit so that he was back in Sunnydale with a soul and insane before the end of this season and in S7 was already back up and running . . . and Buffy could realize her true feelings for him earlier and there would be more happy Spuffiness.

 

[Karol]

Me too.. I was feeling so sad for Riley... He´s THE boyfriend for her.

 

[Tranquillity]

I’m down with White Avenger’s conspiracy theory! There is certainly more going on in this episode than meets the eye! I read a discussion of this episode once that was truly inspired (darn, I can’t find it again – I think it was on live journal) but it discussed the importance of the fact that Buffy’s co-worker at DMP mentions Machiavelli:

The Italian philosopher Nicolo Machiavelli (1469-1527) was one of the most influential of Renaissance thinkers. His most famous work was the 1515 treatise The Prince, in which he says that to remain in power and be truly effective, a ruler must reject traditional morality and use his power ruthlessly — for instance gaining a reputation for stinginess instead of generosity, or to be severe rather than merciful when administering punishment. As a result, the term "Machiavellian" has come to describe the practice of achieving one's goals by whatever means necessary, whether those means are moral or not. (Tribute to Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

And that the shot of Buffy and Spike having a rendezvous in her front yard implies that someone is following Buffy, watching her, but it can’t be Spike because he’s already there, behind the tree. So it would suggest that Reilly is the one doing some reconnaissance and he doesn’t like what he sees. He also leaves out the vital information that the demons need to be captured, not killed, that he’s married and indeed, seems to manipulate the situation very nicely to achieve his ends. The discussion had more but I can’t remember it now. Wish I could find that essay. But yeah, plenty of unanswered questions there..........or maybe it was just bad writing?

But for me, no, no sympathy for Reilly🙁

 

[hannahfngrl26]

Sine Riley was a good ole boy I think he would always feel inferior to Buffy because she is a super hero as he says. He would always feel inadequate. That is kind of hard to just get over.

 

[Kana]

This is a really interesting post, I can't believe I missed it.

I can't ever watch this episode without getting that same feeling that people get when they talk about Kennedy, Dallas, and the grassy knoll. There just has to be something here that we aren't being told.

I've actually heard something similar in another thread, so although I don't agree, there would be many to support your theory.

First off, the Suvolte demon. For such a supposedly vicious demon, it never seemed to attack anyone as much as it just tried to escape.

While that's what we see, we'd still have to speculate on the whys and the hows? Mainly the whys. Why would they be tracking a demon that wasn't hurting anyone and claim it was?

Also, the Suvolte eggs. No animal that size could possibly lay that many eggs of that size in a close enough span of tine that they would all begin to hatch simultaneously. Also, anyone who knows anything about birds knows that the hatchlings, whatever species they are, are never that energetic right out of the shell, because the act of clawing their way out of the shell leaves them exhausted.

Well it's Joss and in his own words, it's not biology or physics, it's metaphysics. Demon can and do possess properties that other species do not.

Next, those spider like things in no way resembled their supposed parent. They looked more like the things that Mayor Wilkins had to eat in Season 3 in order to become invincible.

Again, demon life cycle stuff, I'm cool with it. 🙂.

And finally, Riley's arrival at Spike's crypt was just too well timed. Almost as soon as he makes his dramatic entrance, complete with aimed assault rifle (completely useless against a vampire) and makes his accusations, the bugs start popping out of their shells like popcorn.

The whole just in the nick of time wouldn't be exclusive to this scene, nor to the Jossverse.

The whole thing just looks too contrived, with the only real result being the ending of the Buffy/Spike relationship.

I agree to a degree but I did actually like that seeing Riley forced Buffy to make some hard choices, which I'll explain below.

Then, his mission accomplished, and whatever faith and trust Buffy might have felt for Spike almost completely destroyed, Riley soars off into the night sky with his faithful companion, Sam, tucked under his arm. About the only thing missing was the "Hi yo Silver...Awayyyyyyy."

The whole thing just seems like a complete set up with Spike as the patsy. And the worst part was, Buffy just swallowed the whole thing, hook, line, and sinker, without ever allowing Spike the chance to give any real explanation. "Spike can't be the Doctor, he's too stupid." So Spike is automatically the liar, and Riley can tell nothing but the truth.

Well I don't think it's that simple. I think the main issue is that seeing Riley again makes Buffy yearn for her old life, when she had that 'fire'.

I think it's not so much about Spike's duplicity although that didn't help. Also when confronted, he didn't say no I'm a good man etc. Firstly, he lied, then he said he "You know what I am, yet you come to me all the same.

Say what you will about Spike or Spuffy but at this point Buffy couldn't be with him. It's too much of a moral chasm to go out on a nightly basis and kill soulless vampires and then sleep with one at the end of the night. It's also too much for to use someone (even if it is a demon) who has feelings for her. This is possibly the most important thing. It wasn't about comparing Spike and Riley but about using the opportunity to reassess the decisions she has been making of late. At this point even if she did love Spike she couldn't be with him, at least not in the way she has been. She can no longer hide in the dark with Spike, she needed to respect herself and demon who loves her. This is why she calls him by his human name. She doesn't want to hurt him but she has to be strong and break the cycle.

But I guess that, as someone once pointed out, is no more than simple fan wank. (It still makes perfect sense to me, though)

I'm sure it makes sense to most, even me, but I just don't agree. I still thought Riley rocked. I can actually understand that it would be terrifying for him to see Buffy again and it couldn't have been easy after everything to see her with Spike but he was able to rise above that and tell Buffy what she needed to hear, also points for not being all that judgemental.

 

[white avenger]

Well I don't think it's that simple. I think the main issue is that seeing Riley again makes Buffy yearn for her old life, when she had that 'fire'.

********************************************************

Except that she never really had that "fire" with Riley. Their relationship seemed to be much more "comfortable" than "firey." Faith in Buffy's body, offering Riley a more imaginative evening's recreation scared the boy so badly that he had to rush off to church the next morning, the first and only time on the series.

*************************************************************

I think it's not so much about Spike's duplicity although that didn't help. Also when confronted, he didn't say no I'm a good man etc. Firstly, he lied, then he said he "You know what I am, yet you come to me all the same.

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Spike said that he was keeping the eggs for a friend. The truth in that statement was never either proved or disproved. Maybe he WAS keeping the eggs for the Doctor, but we'll never know, because the subject never came up again. The "You know what I am..." statement sounded much more like someone saying, "You call ME stupid, but you hop into my bed at every opportunity, and you even come to me for comfort and help, so what, little Slayer, does that make YOU?"

*************************************************************

Say what you will about Spike or Spuffy but at this point Buffy couldn't be with him. It's too much of a moral chasm to go out on a nightly basis and kill soulless vampires and then sleep with one at the end of the night. It's also too much for to use someone (even if it is a demon) who has feelings for her. This is possibly the most important thing. It wasn't about comparing Spike and Riley but about using the opportunity to reassess the decisions she has been making of late. At this point even if she did love Spike she couldn't be with him, at least not in the way she has been. She can no longer hide in the dark with Spike, she needed to respect herself and demon who loves her. This is why she calls him by his human name. She doesn't want to hurt him but she has to be strong and break the cycle.

*********************************************************************

Buffy told Spike that she COULDN'T love him, and it was killing her. That could just have easily meant that she COULDN'T love him, not because of what she felt, but because of the attitude of her friends. Remember that scene in "Gone," when Spike really wasn't doing pushups? Buffy was having a ball, no pun intended, because she could really feel alive again without having to worry about what her "friends" might say. If she had been visible when Xander walked in, it would have been, "I'm sorry...William," right then and there.

******************************************************************


I'm sure it makes sense to most, even me, but I just don't agree. I still thought Riley rocked. I can actually understand that it would be terrifying for him to see Buffy again and it couldn't have been easy after everything to see her with Spike but he was able to rise above that and tell Buffy what she needed to hear, also points for not being all that judgemental.

Whether Riley rocked or not, I didn't see any terror in his expression, words, or actions anywhere in this episode. Quite the contrary, I think that he almost waved his happy marriage and working partnership with another demon fighter in Buffy's face. Remember, Riley learned psychological manipulation from a real master, AND he had always seemed to take pleasure in venting his frustrations on a, to him, defenseless Spike. Again, fan wank or not, if I wanted to break up Buffy and Spike, this would have been a perfect set up for doing it (and, yes, he could have most certainly known beforehand that Buffy and Spike were together. I'm sure that the Initiative was still VERY present in Sunnydale, if only as observers, and the Slayer and Hostile 17 would have been at the top of their priorities)\\


(Sorry about the form above. I thought that I was doing multiple quotes, then was just too lazy to go back and do it all over when I saw what had happened )

 

[Kana]

Except that she never really had that "fire" with Riley. Their relationship seemed to be much more "comfortable" than "firey." Faith in Buffy's body, offering Riley a more imaginative evening's recreation scared the boy so badly that he had to rush off to church the next morning, the first and only time on the series.

I was talking about more where she was at the time. She used to have that fire as a slayer which she just didn't have at this point. This point, where she felt isolated from her friends, where she was working at the DMP and where she was using Spike.

Spike said that he was keeping the eggs for a friend. The truth in that statement was never either proved or disproved. Maybe he WAS keeping the eggs for the Doctor, but we'll never know, because the subject never came up again. The "You know what I am..." statement sounded much more like someone saying, "You call ME stupid, but you hop into my bed at every opportunity, and you even come to me for comfort and help, so what, little Slayer, does that make YOU?"

Even if he was, this makes Spike either kind of a dumbass or someone who really couldn't care about mankind. Why didn't he say the demons were harmless if they were? Just seems a bit dodgy if you ask me.

As for the second part of your statement, yes I partially agree with that, although I still believe it has to do with him being a soulless vampire. Buffy can't be much better if she with him and this is part of Buffy's torture.

Buffy told Spike that she COULDN'T love him, and it was killing her. That could just have easily meant that she COULDN'T love him, not because of what she felt, but because of the attitude of her friends. Remember that scene in "Gone," when Spike really wasn't doing pushups? Buffy was having a ball, no pun intended, because she could really feel alive again without having to worry about what her "friends" might say. If she had been visible when Xander walked in, it would have been, "I'm sorry...William," right then and there.

Buffy was having a ball because she was escaping. Either it wasn't really her or it doesn't matter because Spike just a 'thing' (a little like Spike's complaint in OMWF, a whisper in a dead man's ear doesn't make it real.)

When she finally reconciles herself with her actions in Dead Things, she breaks down and cries, digusted with herself. She beats him up because she's really angry with herself not just for what she was doing but for being drawn to him. I think she is worried about what her friends might thunk but those scenes seem deeper than that. I'd actually agree with your scenario as if Xander walked in and found them, it would bring home the reality of what she was doing and force her to make the hard decision sooner.

Whether Riley rocked or not, I didn't see any terror in his expression, words, or actions anywhere in this episode. Quite the contrary, I think that he almost waved his happy marriage and working partnership with another demon fighter in Buffy's face.

Awww, ever heard of acting cool? Psyching yourself up for meeting with the ex?

Remember, Riley learned psychological manipulation from a real master, AND he had always seemed to take pleasure in venting his frustrations on a, to him, defenseless Spike.

Nah, I don't think Riley did anything wrong. What was wrong with what he said to Buffy? I think you're seeing nefariousness when there are only good intentions. He's not perfect but I don't he's guilty of much in that episode. So what if he's life is going great and Buffy's not in the best place, how is that his fault? How is he gloating? The only person gloating was Spike.

Again, fan wank or not, if I wanted to break up Buffy and Spike, this would have been a perfect set up for doing it (and, yes, he could have most certainly known beforehand that Buffy and Spike were together. I'm sure that the Initiative was still VERY present in Sunnydale, if only as observers, and the Slayer and Hostile 17 would have been at the top of their priorities)\\

Riley did very little to break them up apart from uncover the truth. If there was nothing to hide, then there wouldn't have been a problem anyway.

(Sorry about the form above. I thought that I was doing multiple quotes, then was just too lazy to go back and do it all over when I saw what had happened )

Yeah, admittedly quoting seems to take just as long as posting the message itself lol :lmao:.

 

[Tranquillity]

I Finally Found IT! Here is a link to that episode discussion I mentioned a few posts above^^^.

theohara: Captain Cardboard, or How I Learned To Stop Seething And Love "As You Were"

 

[white avenger]

I Finally Found IT! Here is a link to that episode discussion I mentioned a few posts above^^^.

theohara: Captain Cardboard, or How I Learned To Stop Seething And Love "As You Were"

This lady is brilliant! She covered every detail except one: How does a self avowed missionary girl like Sam evolve into a super ninja kick a** demon hunter in the amount of time elapsed between Riley leaving Sunnydale and his return? Someone so good that she has risen in rank in that short amount of tlme to be Riley's equal or even superior. (Buffy: "You work for him?" Sam: "He WISHES.")

My theory: SAM: Slayer Augmented Metabolism. Maggie Walsh might not have been the only evil genius trying to develop a super soldier working for the Initiative. A little Buffy blood/ tissue samples, undoubtedly taken while was Buffy was working with the Initiative, and we're in business.

 

[Kana]

While I think this person eloquently highlighted the inconsistencies in the episode, my favourite element remains intact. The issues with Buffy still needed to be met and the relationship they had at that point was still unhealthy.

Personally, I think there are lots of Mary Sue/polt conveniences in shows, including Buffy, I don't think all of them need a conspiracy theory attached to them.