Atonement, Redemption, And Appropriate Punishment

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
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I think that it's agreed by almost all here that Angel pretty much screwed the pooch in Season 8, whether or not we're in total agreement as to just how much was actually Angel's own free will and how much was Twilight pulling the strings of Puppet Angel. The big question is, however, just what do you think that Angel can do to make some sort of amends for what he did?
 
think he pretty much screwed the pooch completely...

even ignoring the
death of Giles and a thousands of other Slayers and humans
that he's directly responsable for... there's no coming back from this i think...

in my eyes, this was the major apocalypse, and Angel was on the wrong side...
the next issue needs to be with him being vacuumed up and scattered across the Irish sea

M
 
I think there is a certain possibility that Angel will be reinvented as Buffy's nemesis. But most likely he'll start walking down a new road to redemption.

But.

Joss doesn't like to repeat himself. Most likely he has some twist in mind.

Somebody - either Jeanty or Allie - has said that Angel will try to undo what he has done. It could be an interesting study of fate and destiny.
 
Joss doesn't like to repeat himself.
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He doesn't? So S8's main arc isn't a mix of AtS S3 and BtvS S2? Could have fooled me...

The big question is, however, just what do you think that Angel can do to make some sort of amends for what he did?
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Sunbathing.
 
methos said:
Embrace his destiny as Miss Kitty Fantastico's litter tray filler

M
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She's dead. Sorry. Maybe Harmony's doggy instead? 😀

We've been told what Angel's going to be doing... just not how he's going to go about it. Angel's not dusting anytime soon. He screwed up majorly. Now he's going to face the non-fatal music of his own free will.
 
fine, fine... i'll fit it with canon...

Miss Kitty Fantastico's replacement's litter tray filler...

better?

M
 
What I want to know is how the powers and Cordelia think about this Twilight business. If Cordelia and the powers never reached out to Angel like they did in Hell-A, then they probably were ok with it, unless Twilight the universe could interfere with the connections between Angel and the powers. Granted, the powers sometimes sit on their lazy butts, Cordy would never allow Angel to do something drastic unless she approved or was blocked from communicating. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered before we talk about redemption and punishment.
 
thunderhawk86 said:
What I want to know is what the powers and Cordelia think about this Twilight business.
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For that matter, how do we know for sure that the whole Twilight thing wasn't their plan from the moment that Whistler first recruited Angel in that alley, or even as far back as when the Gypsies first placed their curse on him? They've been manipulating him for years, tricking him into doing things for them while making him think that he was acting on his own free will. Why not assume, or at least consider the possibility, that the Powers aren't necessarily the good guys they've always pretended to be? It would work in perfectly with them pulling him back out of hell in Season 3, rejecting his humanity in Season 1 of his own show, and even his selling out to Wolfram & Hart (especially if the Senior Partners and the Powers were secretly in cahoots together all of this time.)

(That's part of what I like to refer to as the Powers Conspiricy Theory, which I may elaborate on some day)
 
I haven't been keeping up with the comics, but my understanding of this situation was that Angel accepted the Twilight phenomenon as a means to prevent an even greater disaster from taking place, and it began to "possess" him and, later, Buffy.

Where is the evidence that the actions of Twilight were decisions Angel had a choice in making?
 
Gideon said:
I haven't been keeping up with the comics, but my understanding of this situation was that Angel accepted the Twilight phenomenon as a means to prevent an even greater disaster from taking place, and it began to "possess" him and, later, Buffy.

Where is the evidence that the actions of Twilight were decisions Angel had a choice in making?
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I believe it was Scott Allie who stated that the influence of Twilight was kind of like being on drugs. It's not quite possession, and you are still responsible for your own actions (kind of like drunk driving- you're still going to get prosecuted even if you have absolutely no memory of the event!). However I think it's obvious that at certain parts of the story Angel did appear more possessed than others: the death of Giles for example. The way he "snapped out of it" after Buffy destroyed the seed made it seem like he was possessed. But he did make choices along the way to accept Twilight's mission.
 
I suppose I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not a comic-reader and have little interest in the medium; I've only been keeping up with the plot via Wiki, here, and word-of-mouth.
 
white avenger said:
For that matter, how do we know for sure that the whole Twilight thing wasn't their plan from the moment that Whistler first recruited Angel in that alley, or even as far back as when the Gypsies first placed their curse on him? They've been manipulating him for years, tricking him into doing things for them while making him think that he was acting on his own free will. Why not assume, or at least consider the possibility, that the Powers aren't necessarily the good guys they've always pretended to be? It would work in perfectly with them pulling him back out of hell in Season 3, rejecting his humanity in Season 1 of his own show, and even his selling out to Wolfram & Hart (especially if the Senior Partners and the Powers were secretly in cahoots together all of this time.)

(That's part of what I like to refer to as the Powers Conspiricy Theory, which I may elaborate on some day)
Click to expand...

I like it. It culminates the whole Buffy and Angelverse history very well, something we know Joss to be fond of with a lot of his characters. Things don't just "happen", there is a reason, an explanation and plans behind it. Revealing The Powers essentially used Angel (and Buffy and everyone else for that matter) into an elaborate chess game for humanity would be, in my opinion, a genius move. But I don't believe Angel would hang up his redemption seeking hat and stop trying if this were the case. If redemption weren't his true desire, I don't think he would have left Sunnydale in the first place.

As for Angel's redemption, his path has always been about coming back from the brink. I'm guessing this will be another painful, if not profound step in that journey. I'm not justifying Giles' death, not by any means. But I believe that Angel will stop at nothing to redeem himself in any way no matter how small from it, even if that means sacrificing himself, which wouldn't be a huge surprise to me anyway. He will find a way come Hell-A or high water, no matter what it entails.

I don't think this is the last we've seen of Rupert Giles. I believe it against all odds, just as I knew we would see Cordelia again. That could be my heart talking, though. A world without Giles... sucks. A lot of suckage to be had. But I believe Joss can quite literally do anything with his characters. I didn't think I could ever root for Spike after season 2, and I did. I didn't think Willow could be redeemed after her foray into Dark Willow, but she did. I didn't think Buffy would ever recover after her return from heaven, but she did. That's what Joss does, he makes us believe the impossible. He'll do it again, and I'll believe and understand it as I always have, even if I don't agree 100%.
 
The big question is, however, just what do you think that Angel can do to make some sort of amends for what he did?

He could stake himself. That would do the trick.

No, really though - Angel should leave and never come back. When he's around, people get killed, and he only brings chaos and destruction to those he "loves." Yet, Angel is Joss' baby, and I know there's no way he'd kill off Angel for good.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Angel somehow managed to remove people's memories of the whole Twilight fiasco as has been suggested. He's done it before - messed with people's memories, that is.

Angel is gullible and weak. Who says he can change now?

---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------

That said, I don't hate Angel. I'm just severely disappointed, as usual. There are many characters I don't like per say, but that I find interesting because they're dark. Angel is one of these.
 
A
Abby27
[No message]
Can I forgive Angel? Yes I can

He wasn't 100% himself, he wasn't making decisions he normally would. Joss screwed Angel, but it wasn't his fault
 
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