Spoiler! Bangel in Season 8 *Spoilers in this thread*

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

This is my take:

For a Bangel, this is catastrophic. To say that the reason Angel fell for Buffy all those years ago was because of a "magical connection" and not because he truly loved her makes the entirety of their relationship a lie.

Are all of them just pawns in a larger game? Puppets? If so, it's a sad day indeed. These characters forged their way in the world based on their own free will...they made the decisions they made because it was there decision to make. Buffy and Angel fell in love because each had something in them that the other needed. To think that their love was all a sham, a mere magic connection...if unforgiveable for me.

By the way, that wasn't by temporary Bangelness speaking. That was me.

 

[citiegal17]

Buff statement and supppost mythology

The fact that Angel called Buffy "Buff" does not eliminate him out to be Angel at all. He actually called Buffy, "Buff" in the episode where they found out faith was helping the mayor so that whole theory is false. He would and has in fact done this, even in the show. The whole thing that they could only be happy with each other, is totally ridiculous. Also if there was some prophetcy then Giles must have a good reason not to tell Buffy, and Angel knowing about it only proves that he has ulter motives for his actions. The scene in which he called her Buff he was acting, so that should be hinting that he is lying, besides the obvious fact that he is responsible for what he has done. He is in fact so much like his son Connor that he only thinks of himself, the character Connor shows just how selfish someone who thinks they are special can be. I thought Connor was one of the most digusting characters of the Angel series that I saw besides Angel himself. The only real heroes of Angel were Wesley, Fred, Doyle, and Cordelia. Angel lost all of his credibilty of being a hero in that series. His actions of the last two season were totally selfish, and were outright evil and malscious. I am very bias towards my own opinon I admit, but there is so much evidence showing that Angel was never meant to be a hero, and he has turned his back on all he says he loves.

 

[Krj2501]

I'm going have to disagree with you, Joan on this. Here's why - because Angel doesn't say there's a mystical connection. Rather Angel is talks about destiny & fate(as reasons)that have drawn them to each other, not some mysterious mystical connection.

For these that believe that Angel is lying - are you sure. Because Angel rarely lies to people he cares about. And to Buffy - the only times he has lied to her when he's trying to do what best for her(As Angel) or when he really wanted to hurt her emotionally (as Angelus). Neither of which is the case here.

I think before we jump to the conclusion that Angel's attempting to trick Buffy or that his lying to her - we're going to need more facts. Which means we're going to have to see how this situation unfolds.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Thank God I'm not reading this.

Reuniting Buffy and Angel as a couple is like Buffy regressing back to her adolescence . . . at least to me.


Where is Spike?

 

[Adam]

Where is Spike?

Busy dressing in supervillain costumes, calling himself New Moon and telling the Buffy-bot that they are connected.

 

[Krj2501]

Personally I don't think they(Buffy & Angel) are acting out of character.

Here's why

1st - it's not like Buffy hasn't had sex with a guy that has attempted to kill her before -- remember BtVS season 6(Spike).

2nd - It's not like Angel, hasn't ever done dark things, like killed a person or let a person die in order a greater number of people, or fool other evil people in to believing he's on there side -- remember Angel Season 5(Illyria & Black Thorn).

Also Angel/Twilight does have a major valid point. In Chosen - Buffy & Willow did create an Army of Slayers - there by disrupting the natural order. With only 1 or 2 Slayers, they would have gone unnoticed on the Human Radar, and The Demon & Vampire communities would only consider them a minor threat. On the other hand - with 1,800 slayers - that's technical a small Army of Super-powered beings. Which could be considered to be a threat to the Human race & the Demon/Vampire communities. Couple with that the final act in "Chosen" was the complete destruction of Sunnydale - which the US government could consider to be an act greater than 9/11. With the U.S. Military(in a post-9/11 world) united with the demon & Vampire communities against a well-armed Slayer Army - I could also see how that could lead to an Armageddon-style Apocalyspe - that could end with lose of billions of human lives.

In that situation - maybe Angel did the best thing by becoming Twilight. There by keeping the Human death toll to less than 100,000 & a Slayer death toll to less than 500. And yet also allowing him to pushing Buffy to her ultimate destiny.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Personally I don't think they(Buffy & Angel) are acting out of character.

Well, from what I've heard recently, you're alone in that opinion.

Here's why

1st - it's not like Buffy hasn't had sex with a guy that has attempted to kill her before -- remember BtVS season 6(Spike).

Well, I like to think Buffy has learned her lesson since then. Screwing evil vampires = bad. Buffy no longer has a "death wish", and she no longer believes that her death is her "gift." Buffy wants to live.

2nd - It's not like Angel, hasn't ever done dark things, like killed a person or let a person die in order a greater number of people, or fool other evil people in to believing he's on there side -- remember Angel Season 5(Illyria & Black Thorn).

Dark things? Well, this is as dark as it gets. Yes, Angel did get Lindsey killed, Drogan as well, and allowed Fred to die to save thousands - but the magnitude of this really can't be compared to those examples. Twilight has killed hundreds of people, tortured Willow, etc etc. God KNOWS what he might have done to and of A.I. back in L.A. This is evil - mass murder - in its trust form. How Angel can "excuse" these actions is beyond me and how Buffy can forgive him is shocking. To see her resort to a naive, trusting, wet-eyed, desperate school-girl in the presence of Angel is enough to make me feel physically ill.

Also Angel/Twilight does have a major valid point. In Chosen - Buffy & Willow did create an Army of Slayers - there by disrupting the natural order. With only 1 or 2 Slayers, they would have gone unnoticed on the Human Radar, and The Demon & Vampire communities would only consider them a minor threat.

Since when is it within Angel's right to play God? To kill hundreds of Innocent Slayers? This is what I have a hard time reconciling with Angel; his whole utilitarian attitude. If he saves the world, and wins his damned shanshu, he gets what he wants - but at what price? The death of the women he claims he loves and everyone she loves as well?

On the other hand - with 1,800 slayers - that's technical a small Army of Super-powered beings. Which could be considered to be a threat to the Human race & the Demon/Vampire communities. Couple with that the final act in "Chosen" was the complete destruction of Sunnydale - which the US government could consider to be an act greater than 9/11. With the U.S. Military(in a post-9/11 world) united with the demon & Vampire communities against a well-armed Slayer Army - I could also see how that could lead to an Armageddon-style Apocalyspe - that could end with lose of billions of human lives.

Since when did Buffy and her gang become the Bad Guys? If that's where the story is going - Angel needing to kill Buffy and her friends to save them from themselves - I'm through.

And yet also allowing him to pushing Buffy to her ultimate destiny.

I like to think that Buffy has the free will to control her own destiny. Angel does not define and/or control her actions. When they're together, he calls the shots, makes the decisions - with or without her consent. She trusts him and she shouldn't. It might get one of her friends killed.

 

[Krj2501]

Well, from what I've heard recently, you're alone in that opinion.

Personally I like to think I'm ahead of the curve on this one.

Well, I like to think Buffy has learned her lesson since then. Screwing evil vampires = bad. Buffy no longer has a "death wish", and she no longer believes that her death is her "gift." Buffy wants to live.

But as it's been pointed out several times in Season 8 so far - the real question should be asked has Buffy really learned any thing from her past lessons?

Dark things? Well, this is as dark as it gets. Yes, Angel did get Lindsey killed, Drogan as well, and allowed Fred to die to save thousands - but the magnitude of this really can't be compared to those examples. Twilight has killed hundreds of people, tortured Willow, etc etc. God KNOWS what he might have done to and of A.I. back in L.A. This is evil - mass murder - in its trust form. How Angel can "excuse" these actions is beyond me and how Buffy can forgive him is shocking. To see her resort to a naive, trusting, wet-eyed, desperate school-girl in the presence of Angel is enough to make me feel physically ill.

Okay - technically Twilight didn't torture Willow, Warren & Amy did - and there's no reason to believe that Twilight/Angel had any direct knowledge of that event. Like wise when Amy attempted to stab Buffy while she was a sleep - that doesn't mean that it was part of Twilight's/Angel overall plan(in fact iof I had bet - I would bet that it wasn't). If there's be a rogue element in Twilight's planning - it's been Warren & Amy. Just like Simon's group is a rogue element in Buffy's Army.

Since when is it within Angel's right to play God? To kill hundreds of Innocent Slayers? This is what I have a hard time reconciling with Angel; his whole utilitarian attitude. If he saves the world, and wins his damned shanshu, he gets what he wants - but at what price? The death of the women he claims he loves and everyone she loves as well?

Better a couple hundred Slayers - than Millions or Billions of people around the world. To me a couple of things because very clear about this series in the last issue (#33) - First is there won't be a clear winner - partly because the Big Bad (Angel) isn't any more evil, than Buffy & her team are truely good. Both sides are in the gray area - depending on your point of view.

Since when did Buffy and her gang become the Bad Guys? If that's where the story is going - Angel needing to kill Buffy and her friends to save them from themselves - I'm through..

Angel didn't say that Buffy and her gang - were evil when they stopped the First and destroyed Sunnydale. Just that their actions produced some really bad consequences, which Buffy & her group hadn't plan on.

I like to think that Buffy has the free will to control her own destiny. Angel does not define and/or control her actions. When they're together, he calls the shots, makes the decisions - with or without her consent. She trusts him and she shouldn't. It might get one of her friends killed.

And yet - thru out the whole BtVS & Angel series - it's been stated many times that both Buffy & Angel have destinies that are beyond their control.

---------- Post added at 04:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 AM ----------

Like I've said before - we're going to have to wait and see how this season finally plays out.

But I personally believe that things aren't as Cut & Dry or Black & White they may seem to be. In fact there's seems to be alot of different shades of gray around this season -so far.

And knowing Joss - I won't be surprise if there's a couple of twists in the story before the Finale.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

1st - it's not like Buffy hasn't had sex with a guy that has attempted to kill her before -- remember BtVS season 6(Spike).

Trying to kill her is one thing. This time she's having sex with a man who killed 200 of her friends. Whatever his reasons for doing what he did, she's having sex with a man who she was accusing, thirty seconds before, of killing 200 of her own friends.

That would be out of character for any sane person.

2nd - It's not like Angel, hasn't ever done dark things, like killed a person or let a person die in order a greater number of people, or fool other evil people in to believing he's on there side -- remember Angel Season 5(Illyria & Black Thorn).

Also Angel/Twilight does have a major valid point. In Chosen - Buffy & Willow did create an Army of Slayers - there by disrupting the natural order. With only 1 or 2 Slayers, they would have gone unnoticed on the Human Radar, and The Demon & Vampire communities would only consider them a minor threat. On the other hand - with 1,800 slayers - that's technical a small Army of Super-powered beings. Which could be considered to be a threat to the Human race & the Demon/Vampire communities. Couple with that the final act in "Chosen" was the complete destruction of Sunnydale - which the US government could consider to be an act greater than 9/11. With the U.S. Military(in a post-9/11 world) united with the demon & Vampire communities against a well-armed Slayer Army - I could also see how that could lead to an Armageddon-style Apocalyspe - that could end with lose of billions of human lives.

I wonder if people would be accepting this reasoning as much if Xander, or Willow, or Giles were part of the "acceptable losses." I almost wish Joss had written it that way, so we couldn't just sit back and say "Oh, it's OK, nobody died except some cannon-fodder Slayers whose names we mostly didn't even know. Angel must have had his good reasons."

Because every one of those 200 girls had someone in their lives that loved them as much as Buffy (and we) love Xander, and Willow, and Giles.

The logic of "kill a thousand to save a million" looks a whole lot less sensible when your own loved ones are among the thousand.

I wonder how Xander will react when he realizes Buffy is boffing the guy responsible for Renee's brutal murder.

In that situation - maybe Angel did the best thing by becoming Twilight. There by keeping the Human death toll to less than 100,000 & a Slayer death toll to less than 500. And yet also allowing him to pushing Buffy to her ultimate destiny.

I'm looking for heroes in my stories, not cold-hearted mathematicians.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I wonder how Xander will react when he realizes Buffy is boffing the guy responsible for Renee's brutal murder.

Oh, I can't wait to see his reaction. I think another Xander-tells-Buffy-like-it-is speech is in order. She needs some sense knocked into her.

I'm looking for heroes in my stories, not cold-hearted mathematicians.

I agree. Why build these characters up as heroes for so long, only to force them to fall?

Boy, is this going to be a long year yet.

 

[LyteHouse]

Scott Allie just commented that the slow monthly schedule is a particular problem with this arc.

This is true.

Allie pointed out that many fans will be upset (<----lol understatement!) but he hammered the point home again and again that none of this will make sense until at least the end of Issue 35.

There's a lot of blanks to be filled in.

To the Exposition Room!

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Allie pointed out that many fans will be upset (<----lol understatement!) but he hammered the point home again and again that none of this will make sense until at least the end of Issue 35.

There's a lot of blanks to be filled in.

To the Exposition Room!

I know, I know...and I am trying to reserve judgment until the end. I'm by no means writing off Angel as my favorite character until we see what's really going on, but...I feel mighty skeptical.

I'm worried about Gwen, Nina, Spike, Conner...where were they these past two years when Angel was becoming Twilight? Sitting in their a**? They should have been stopping him!

 

[Kean]

I know, I know...and I am trying to reserve judgment until the end. I'm by no means writing off Angel as my favorite character until we see what's really going on, but...I feel mighty skeptical.

I'm worried about Gwen, Nina, Spike, Conner...where were they these past two years when Angel was becoming Twilight? Sitting in their a**? They should have been stopping him!

This is apparently destiny, I get the feeling that no force in the verse could have stopped him.

I'm still witholding any real opinion until this is done.

 

[Krj2501]

Given that Joss Whedon is a master at plot twists - I think it's sound advice to with hold judgements until we see how things play out.

After all - this isn't the first time - that it's been said that the characters' aren't acting like themselves - remember the whole Buffy/Satsu thing.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

After all - this isn't the first time - that it's been said that the characters' aren't acting like themselves - remember the whole Buffy/Satsu thing.

Sleeping with Satsu was about the sanest thing Buffy's done this season. Too bad she wasted that opportunity in her rush to self-destruction.

 

[Krj2501]

Obviously we completely differ on that topic - Since I tend to see her Sleeping with Satsu is quite possibly the most uncharacteristic thing that Buffy's done all season.

And yes that means I find the idea of Buffy sleeping with Angel, after all his put her thru this season - is to be more believable and in character than her, then for her to sleep with Satsu.

As proof just remember what Spike told Riley about Buffy -(i.e."the Girl's got to have a little Monster in her Man" speech) and what he told about Buffy & Angel in "Lover's Walk".

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Obviously we completely differ on that topic - Since I tend to see her Sleeping with Satsu is quite possibly the most uncharacteristic thing that Buffy's done all season.

And yes that means I find the idea of Buffy sleeping with Angel, after all his put her thru this season - is to be more believable and in character than her, then for her to sleep with Satsu.

You're right. We will differ on that topic. Completely.

 

[Krj2501]

Yeah - that's kind of what happens when a Bangel & a Batsu debate Season 8. There's even more disagreement that you get with a Bangel & a Spuffy debate.

 

[InsaneMystic]

This is apparently destiny, I get the feeling that no force in the verse could have stopped him.

Dunno, stake through the heart might've done the trick. (Repeat as needed, if W&H should keep bringing him back.)

The way things stand at the moment, I hope (but realistically, I won't bet a single cent on it) we'll get to see either Xander or Spike do exactly that to Captain Glowing Forehead before the Season is through.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Dunno, stake through the heart might've done the trick. (Repeat as needed, if W&H should keep bringing him back.)

The way things stand at the moment, I hope (but realistically, I won't bet a single cent on it) we'll get to see either Xander or Spike do exactly that to Captain Glowing Forehead before the Season is through.

I'll wait for the rest of the story before I do something as drastic as wish Angel dead (and he's invulnerable right now anyway, so the point is moot.) I've seen him through too much to have the heart to pull the trigger that quickly, as angry as I am with him now.

But I'm damned if I can see a way of saving him as an admirable character at this point. Not sure that's Joss's intent anyway.

I certainly expect Xander will do his best to do it, though, if he gets evidence that Angel was behind the Tokyo vamps and what they did to Renee. At the very least, I hope he somehow gets to give Angel the beat-down that's been brewing since the very beginning of the series.