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Bangel or Spuffy? #2

thetopher

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Sineya
I understand Fuffy shippers but I think they get carried away.
Compared to who? Bangels or Spuffies? :p
In comparison we Fuffies are mostly a sensitive and discerning lot who see the beauty of what-if and all those fresh, original stories.
We're a live and let live bunch mostly.

I do think they need and compliment each other as friends I love what was done with them in the comics.
But we got nothing interesting from them post-S8, they were in entirely separate comics. No interesting developing friendship or anything, they regressed.
I will say that I loved most of Faith's character growth in her own comic. She had so many great moments. Buffy not so much.. And her romantic development was a bit embarrassing and one-note. A wasted opportunity.
 

Btvs fan

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JOss seems to like playing both sides of the fence. He won't let either ship have a definite end. It's always left open. He comes back to write the comics, breaks up Spuffy, then leaves it open ended for the ship wars to continue. lol

Joss just seems to wanna play both sides of the fence.

He's apparently into Spuffy, no shock given his Marvel pairings. Lol But as soon as he comes back, he breaks up Spuffy, moves Angel back to Sunnydale, then leaves Bangel or Spuffy wide open. I guess to avoid upsetting either fanbase

Open-endings kill me. Seems like the story isn't complete.

Pick something & solidify it.
Back to this 🤔

 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
I am digging the ABS.

katmobile

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Compared to who? Bangels or Spuffies? :p
In comparison we Fuffies are mostly a sensitive and discerning lot who see the beauty of what-if and all those fresh, original stories.
We're a live and let live bunch mostly.



But we got nothing interesting from them post-S8, they were in entirely separate comics. No interesting developing friendship or anything, they regressed.
I will say that I loved most of Faith's character growth in her own comic. She had so many great moments. Buffy not so much.. And her romantic development was a bit embarrassing and one-note. A wasted opportunity.
I don't about mostly but considering you're tendancy to put the boot into Spike and your refusal to accept any compromise on your stance about the Spaith fight I wouldn't call that sensitive at all. Maybe you are IRL on here you're dogmatic and come across as extremely self righteous. Spuffys and Bangels see beauty in their ships too and neither are without reason.

I'll give you Faith's arc in the comic is great IMO it's one of the best reasons to read them but they tried Buffy with Dowling a bit and tried to set her up with Koh but it never felt right to them and with good reason.
 

katmobile

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Compared to who? Bangels or Spuffies? :p
In comparison we Fuffies are mostly a sensitive and discerning lot who see the beauty of what-if and all those fresh, original stories.
We're a live and let live bunch mostly.



But we got nothing interesting from them post-S8, they were in entirely separate comics. No interesting developing friendship or anything, they regressed.
I will say that I loved most of Faith's character growth in her own comic. She had so many great moments. Buffy not so much.. And her romantic development was a bit embarrassing and one-note. A wasted opportunity.
And you need to read season twelve or at least the last two issues.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
I don't about mostly but considering you're tendancy to put the boot into Spike and your refusal to accept any compromise on your stance about the Spaith fight I wouldn't call that sensitive at all.
Yeah, I was mostly joking around with the sensitive comment but my point is generally that Fuffies don't go on and on about how great the pairing is.
I won't apologize for disliking Spike-with-a-soul because I have valid reasons. It has nothing to do with shipping preferences.
And I don't see why I should comprise about somebody punching somebody else for no good reason, it's crappy behavior no matter which character is doing it. But whatever, I'm not getting into it all over again.

Btw- I did read all of S12. I don't see your point.
 

katmobile

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Yeah, I was mostly joking around with the sensitive comment but my point is generally that Fuffies don't go on and on about how great the pairing is.
I won't apologize for disliking Spike-with-a-soul because I have valid reasons. It has nothing to do with shipping preferences.
And I don't see why I should comprise about somebody punching somebody else for no good reason, it's crappy behavior no matter which character is doing it. But whatever, I'm not getting into it all over again.

Btw- I did read all of S12. I don't see your point.
I try not to but I will defend if it's attacked. I thought the set up of the end of season twelve was leaving the door wide open for Fuffy especially with the fact that Buffy is sharing her future with Faith in a real sense I love the fact the two slayers are real friends and building a future together whether you ship them or not it's lovely as is the fact Faith has a home and a future including a pension plan.

There's a world of difference between blaming someone for something and saying they deserved it and saying they used it for carhysis at least partially. No one is saying Spike was blameless either but maybe he got a little too maybe Faith knew that. It's not black and white I love both chracters - I could actually quite happily ship them if you want new - but they both have a violent streak that isn't going to disappear because they reformed. However you described as an unprovoked attack with zero effort to understand why it might not have been even if I think Faith actually had some pretty good and at least partly altruistic reasons to provoke it.
 

Spanky

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my point is generally that Fuffies don't go on and on about how great the pairing is.
That's because deep down they know it's not. Tis but a ship of smoke and mirror. A ship never validated by the show. A ship not much greater than a dingy: it's a fun, fast ride but nothing you'd want to really sail on long term.
 

thetopher

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Sineya
I try not to but I will defend if it's attacked.
Then you might try debating the points of an argument instead of calling a poster self-righteous. A critique of a ship or critism of a character's behavior is not a personal attack on you.

I thought the set up of the end of season twelve was leaving the door wide open for Fuffy especially with the fact that Buffy is sharing her future with Faith
Well, that's just a repeat of the end of S7; the end is there for both of them to share off-screen. It's just more head-canon, which is fine but we already had that.
Except the Buffy of S12 is not the fantastic heroine of the TV show. I really don't really ship comics-Fuffy anymore tbh.

That's because deep down they know it's not. Tis but a ship of smoke and mirror. A ship never validated by the show. A ship not much greater than a dingy
False. It's actually a really sweet, sweet speedboat. Still, it does manage to dodge those Joss-shaped icebergs.
Both Bangel and Spuffy have been victim of those.
 
K
katmobile
I did and I even did in the post you quote but you don't accept them. It's not science you can't prove what someone's motives are there's just interpretation which you won't budge when others try to explain what they're seeing.

Mrs Gordo

Bangel extremist...
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Black Thorn
People shouldn't generalize. All shippers are not created equal. For example I may be a bangel extremist but my views are not representative of all bangel fans. In fact, I think there are board rules against this very thing.
 
WillowFromBuffy
WillowFromBuffy
I am an extremist, too, but I am not sure which kind. I just know that I am an extremist of my chosen position.
K
katmobile
I know it's a spectrum and it's often the extremists who stick out but if you don't want generalisation you shouldn't generalise I mean that in the universal sense

Antho

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People shouldn't generalize. All shippers are not created equal. For example I may be a bangel extremist but my views are not representative of all bangel fans. In fact, I think there are board rules against this very thing.
what you ask is impossible ! People generalize all the time on every subjects. That's not new. But you are right, we shoudn"t do that.
 

DeadlyDuo

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Buffy's a train wreck when it comes to relationships, whether its a slayer thing or not is uncertain, but it seems like a slayer has to keep a certain emotional distance and a romantic partner is someone you need to be really close to.

Spike should've stayed with Dru, Bangel needs a resolution before either party moves on.
 
FaithLehane16
FaithLehane16
She is the cookie dough that needs to be done baking. :D
B
Btvs fan
No no no
K
katmobile
With respect I disagree and how do you resolve Bangel beyond what's happened.

RomanticSoul

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JOss seems to like playing both sides of the fence. He won't let either ship have a definite end. It's always left open. He comes back to write the comics, breaks up Spuffy, then leaves it open ended for the ship wars to continue. lol
Joss is predictable in his limitations and lack of balls. Pick a story and stick to it, if it doesn't work for some viewers/readers so be it. Wasn't that how he used to view BtVS? But his lack of balls in picking a story and preferring to sit on the fence got old in S7 already. If he's into Spuffy and he wants them together, then he should just do it. And then use his much lauded imagination and keep it interesting. Except he didn't keep it interesting and the characters suffered for it.

Fans have dictated the story way too much, or rather Joss let him himself be influenced too much by them. So what if they scream murder? Who cares. Just tell your story the way you want Joss, you wuss.
 

DeadlyDuo

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@katmobile "With respect I disagree and how do you resolve Bangel beyond what's happened."

That's the point. Bangel can't reach a resolution and thus will always have unresolved feelings about each other. Their relationship didn't peter out, it was abruptly cut short. If Angel managed to anchor his soul (maybe using the soul demon that Spike did) then he and Buffy could at least try and make a proper go of it and see what happens; until then, he and Buffy can never truly move on from each other.
 

DayDreamer27

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Joss is predictable in his limitations and lack of balls. Pick a story and stick to it, if it doesn't work for some viewers/readers so be it. Wasn't that how he used to view BtVS? But his lack of balls in picking a story and preferring to sit on the fence got old in S7 already. If he's into Spuffy and he wants them together, then he should just do it. And then use his much lauded imagination and keep it interesting. Except he didn't keep it interesting and the characters suffered for it.

Fans have dictated the story way too much, or rather Joss let him himself be influenced too much by them. So what if they scream murder? Who cares. Just tell your story the way you want Joss, you wuss.
Agreed. I don't care for Spuffy, but if it happens, then it happens. At least that would be a definite answer / ending. Can Angel find a way to fix or cure his curse, if so, do that & let them have the go Spuffy did. Again, least that would be something.

I suppose Joss is a Spuffy, but he's one of the writers that feel stability is boring. So with Spike having a soul, and Buffy not going through PTSD anymore, the relationship could actually be healthy, and to Joss, that made it boring. So he couldn't do anything with it, besides break them up because they "don't work without crisis." Same with Bangel, where I think he mentioned it was boring or didn't have bite to it, which is why he separated them & went for Spuffy.

Either way, I get tired of writers (or editors) wanting to beat around the bush with pairings. If you're gonna have to characters be an item, get them together. If you don't have the balls to do so, give it a definite & permanent end. Rather than dragging it out with the will they, won't they, or have they crap with the door left open.

One of my Marvel OTPs had the exact same issue for the last 3 years. And I am still annoyed. lol I see the relationship exactly like Bangel. The similarities are uncanny, especially when the writer who started the storyline for the male lead says he modeled his change after Angel. But they pussy-footed around with it for 3 years.

  1. The two are in the same series. Uncanny 2016. It's teased they have feelings for each other, with other characters pointing it out. We get no confirmation on their feelings, if they would get together, or even if they already were together, secretly. The book is cancelled & they're left on a cliffhanger where we see they ran away together while battling their dark sides.
  2. After the comic line does a re-branding, both characters end up in separate books, their ship was dropped, and we got no explanation for why they were separated all of a sudden. The relationship went ignored for 17 months.
  3. During that 17 month dry spell, the writer for Uncanny, Cullen Bunn, comes out & says the two characters had a torturous love, which seems to imply they were in love in his book. But he sure as heck didn't show it. We never saw them confess love, kiss, have sex, or even hold hands. It was just a lot of teasing with nothing explicitly made clear.
  4. Our female lead finally ends up in the same book as the male lead for the last arc of his book in 2018, which was 6 chapters running from 22-27. A different writer has taken over, so who knows where he was or how informed he was in the ship. But once again, we get some teasing they have feelings for each other, but no solidification. One line runs with the idea that they were actually together in Uncanny, but the seriousness of said line was debatable.
  5. The relationship is dropped after issue 24. Thee two don't interact issues 25 & 26. Then issue 27 sees out male lead go Angelus and he's last seen running into the Saskatchewan woods while our female lead is back in Aspen sadly wondering what's happened to him. End.
After all this crap, I think my frustration is understandable. lol If they are gonna do anything with that ship, they just need to do it. Let it finally sail. If they don't have the balls, then sink it with some legit closure rather than leaving it wide open with feelings never made clear & one of them mentally compromised. They did that in both books the two shared.

I was never a fan of writers pussyfooting around with will they or won't they. Answer the question eventually & stick with your answer. I hated Sam x Diane, and though it didn't happen until the series finale, they got come legit closure. They are crazy about each other, but realized their was no future for them together because they were not compatible. Great. On the flip, I hated Ross x Rachel, but they eventually got closure. They still had feelings for each other, and realize they've been acting stupid, they get back together. Fine. Least it got an answer.
 
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RomanticSoul

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I suppose Joss is a Spuffy, but he's one of the writers that feel stability is boring. So with Spike having a soul, and Buffy not going through PTSD anymore, the relationship could actually be healthy, and to Joss, that made it boring. So he couldn't do anything with it, besides break them up because they "don't work without crisis." Same with Bangel, where I think he mentioned it was boring or didn't have bite to it, which is why he separated them & went for Spuffy.

Either way, I get tired of writers (or editors) wanting to beat around the bush with pairings. If you're gonna have to characters be an item, get them together. If you don't have the balls to do so, give it a definite & permanent end. Rather than dragging it out with the will they, won't they, or have they crap with the door left open.
Relationships are only boring if there are people not talented enough to write them. That will always be the #1 issue and any writer who excuses crappy relationships or badly written ones or boring ones is just admitting to lack of talent. Bangel didn't have to be boring if they had explored the internal issues of the ship. They didn't have the talent to do that hence all the obstacles faced by them were external. Spuffy got boring and repetitive once they didn't have their destructive relationship anymore. And even the S6 one got old pretty damn fast because it was just 'lather, rinse, repeat'. The very fact that quite a bit of comic Spuffy is directly taken from Bangel (and Spike gets Angel-y sometimes) just shows Joss has never worked out how to do slayer/vampire or human/vampire period.
 

Antho

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Relationships are only boring if there are people not talented enough to write them. That will always be the #1 issue and any writer who excuses crappy relationships or badly written ones or boring ones is just admitting to lack of talent. Bangel didn't have to be boring if they had explored the internal issues of the ship. They didn't have the talent to do that hence all the obstacles faced by them were external. Spuffy got boring and repetitive once they didn't have their destructive relationship anymore. And even the S6 one got old pretty damn fast because it was just 'lather, rinse, repeat'. The very fact that quite a bit of comic Spuffy is directly taken from Bangel (and Spike gets Angel-y sometimes) just shows Joss has never worked out how to do slayer/vampire or human/vampire period.
Yes but all of that is of course subjective ! What you find boring can be interesting for someone else. Something bad explored for you can be well explored for others. So saying that a writer is talented or not is one more time a question of point of view.
 

RomanticSoul

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Yes but all of that is of course subjective ! What you find boring can be interesting for someone else. Something bad explored for you can be well explored for others. So saying that a writer is talented or not is one more time a question of point of view.
It's not my opinion, it's Joss'. He was the one who called happy, stable relationships boring. But happy and stable does not equal boring in fact. You can have a good relationship without making it boring if you have talented writers or storytellers. So he admitted to lack of talent on his end, it's not an assumption of mine if the show runner who is also a writer admitted it himself.

And S6 Spuffy might have been interesting for some, I was bored (though usually more in stitches over the most fake sex scenes ever when I wasn't completely disgusted watching Buffy be degraded for Spike's story) of the repetitive nature of the story.

Spike: I lurve you, slayer.
Buffy: Get lost pig.
Spike: Oh come on, you know you want it.
Buffy: No.
Spike: You are worthless, let me give it to you good.
Buffy: Ok.

How that did not get old for some after a few episodes is a mystery to me.
 

Antho

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It's not my opinion, it's Joss'. He was the one who called happy, stable relationships boring. But happy and stable does not equal boring in fact. You can have a good relationship without making it boring if you have talented writers or storytellers. So he admitted to lack of talent on his end, it's not an assumption of mine if the show runner who is also a writer admitted it himself.
Why do people watch TV shows in your opinion ? Do they watch it to see perfect characters have a perfect life ? or do they watch it to identify with characters and what they are going through ? I guess Joss just by using words like 'happy" and "stable" juste wanted to mean that nobody is interested by a relationship where everything it's normal, in place and perfect. And why ? Because it's not like that in real life for most of the people. And this is also why Briley is so much hated... It's the complexity of the relationship that keep the fan invest in the story, tha's why Bangel and Spuffy have a lot of fans. If Bangel is the definition of "happy" and "stable" for Joss, and that it means for him "boring", then I disagree with him ! because there is a lot of issues they need to work on but again people like melodrame so.......

How that did not get old for some after a few episodes is a mystery to me.
Simple principle : All the tastes are in the nature and we aren't all alike. That's all !
 

Btvs fan

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Relationships are only boring if there are people not talented enough to write them. That will always be the #1 issue and any writer who excuses crappy relationships or badly written ones or boring ones is just admitting to lack of talent. Bangel didn't have to be boring if they had explored the internal issues of the ship. They didn't have the talent to do that hence all the obstacles faced by them were external. Spuffy got boring and repetitive once they didn't have their destructive relationship anymore. And even the S6 one got old pretty damn fast because it was just 'lather, rinse, repeat'. The very fact that quite a bit of comic Spuffy is directly taken from Bangel (and Spike gets Angel-y sometimes) just shows Joss has never worked out how to do slayer/vampire or human/vampire period.
Bangel (particularly S3) was melodramatic pap to me. It was just Twighlight Mk1 albeit with a 27 yr old fixated on a 15 yr old instead of 2 weird teenagers. I was so bored with it, it was just rinse repeat with every scene they did. Hell the writers were openly mocking Bangel in the Zeppo even they knew what they were writing.
 
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