Spoiler! Bangel, season 8

[VisionGirl]

Just a warning: there are spoilers herein. I really don't think we need to hide the spoilers since we all know we're going to discuss the events of season 8 and its aftermath. But if the PTB want me to, I will.

I don't think we have ever done this here. I just finished my re-read of season 8 in anticipation of season 9, and I really, really, really need to talk about it with my Bangel friends. During my first read on this board, it was hard to process all the events, and I often felt that I was put on the defensive WRT Bangel and Angel. But this time, there were only a few of us doing the re-read, and doing it via TPBs gave me the full emotional impact of the arcs.

So do you mind if we talk about it? I have such mixed feelings about it, and I'm feeling really emotional right now.

There are parts of me that are happy: I had moments of happiness (but not perfect happiness LOL!) at Buffy and Angel getting together, getting to be happy for even a brief second. And I am freely admitting to you guys that this time around, I liked the Bangel sex. I almost feel that I should whisper that, you know?

But then, the sadness. Giles' death is almost too sad for words for me this time. And the fact that it was by Angel's hand. I really can't think of anything worse for Buffy and for Bangel.

And anger. I'm angry at Angel, for being manipulated, for believing Twilight's bullshit, for manipulating Buffy. I'm not so angry at him for killing Giles since in that moment he was controlled by Twilight. But all those Slayers that died! I'm angry at Buffy for giving in. And I'm angry at Joss & the writers. Did we need to go down this road again? Did we need to rachet the stakes this high? Will these kids ever get a lousy, goddamn break?!

I don't know what the future holds for them, but to me it seems pretty bleak. I can't really believe they're completely over though. I have faith (heh-heh) in Angel's willingness to try again (thank you to [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] for her inspiring banner!) to earn his redemption. I don't know if they'll ever be able to trust again.

Oh God, just hand me the F^*@ing tissues!!

 

[Taake]

I'm more or less as conflicted as you are in these issues, and *whispers* I liked the Bangel sex too 😉 The aftermath however... (yes, yes Joss. Sex is bad, we get it) leaves a whole lot of gloominess in its wake. For me though I can't feel all that betrayed or disappointed in Angel because frankly speaking the whole Twilight thing - I don't know, I just have a hard time buying it. To me it doesn't feel like Angel... yes he'll make grand 'for the bigger picture' decisions but expecting Buffy to leave her friends behind to die etc it just... it's out of character in my opinion.

Which was why I abandoned the comics even before Giles' death (and boy am I glad that I did) because I don't think I could have stomached watching Angel dispose of Giles.

As for what problems this creates for Bangel in the future... I'm sorry I can't be of much help with perspective there because I've as mentioned, abandonded that part of the verse. Honestly it's because I feel that Joss has just spiralled out of control and lost the soul of Btvs. Instead of creating story arcs true or beneficial to the characters he's just re-hashing old ideas and packing the pages full of soap-opera drama. IMO he should give the verse a rest until he has some fresh ideas again, or until he has some respect for his characters once more cause right now it feels like he's only in it for the money.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

[MENTION=9799]Taake[/MENTION] this is why I stopped reading the comics too, the whole out of character characters and the out of character verse. It doesn't feel like Buffy, and I'm not liking it too much.

The Bangel sex for me is not just that it's a Bangel sex, but that it seems unrealistic. Like, why would they do that, why would he do that, why would she do that? I'm hoping for a better explaination, because Bangel sex is one thing, but having it with stupid explaination for why and how and what the results are... No way I would like it.

 

[Kean]

Just a warning: there are spoilers herein. I really don't think we need to hide the spoilers since we all know we're going to discuss the events of season 8 and its aftermath. But if the PTB want me to, I will.

I don't think we have ever done this here. I just finished my re-read of season 8 in anticipation of season 9, and I really, really, really need to talk about it with my Bangel friends. During my first read on this board, it was hard to process all the events, and I often felt that I was put on the defensive WRT Bangel and Angel. But this time, there were only a few of us doing the re-read, and doing it via TPBs gave me the full emotional impact of the arcs.

So do you mind if we talk about it? I have such mixed feelings about it, and I'm feeling really emotional right now.

There are parts of me that are happy: I had moments of happiness (but not perfect happiness LOL!) at Buffy and Angel getting together, getting to be happy for even a brief second. And I am freely admitting to you guys that this time around, I liked the Bangel sex. I almost feel that I should whisper that, you know?

But then, the sadness. Giles' death is almost too sad for words for me this time. And the fact that it was by Angel's hand. I really can't think of anything worse for Buffy and for Bangel.

And anger. I'm angry at Angel, for being manipulated, for believing Twilight's bullshit, for manipulating Buffy. I'm not so angry at him for killing Giles since in that moment he was controlled by Twilight. But all those Slayers that died! I'm angry at Buffy for giving in. And I'm angry at Joss & the writers. Did we need to go down this road again? Did we need to rachet the stakes this high? Will these kids ever get a lousy, goddamn break?!

I don't know what the future holds for them, but to me it seems pretty bleak. I can't really believe they're completely over though. I have faith (heh-heh) in Angel's willingness to try again (thank you to [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] for her inspiring banner!) to earn his redemption. I don't know if they'll ever be able to trust again.

Oh God, just hand me the F^*@ing tissues!!

Oh honey, you have no idea how much this has expresses my post S8 journey with Bangel and Angel this past year. I almost feel like it was a grieving period; my posts were so erratic. I wrote apologetic posts; angry posts; defiant posts; excited posts; sad posts and then hopeful posts. You name the emotion; I have felt it about our ship and that season.

Here is what I know:

1. There isn't a force in the verse that could stop me shipping B/A. But nice try, Twilight. 😛

2. I am very disappointed at some of the choices B/A made last season.

3. I will never be sorry for a single second we got of them being happy and free together. Sue me.

4. The Powers that Be are poop heads.

5. Occasionally, so too are Angel and Buffy.

6. We will not see them together in the near future. And that is perfectly fine with me.

7. Because we will see them together again. At the end.

8. Bangel is not over. It is never over.

😀

 

[Chosen Enemy]

8. Bangel is not over. It is never over.

You know I'm a Spuffy, so the Bangel concept doesn't appeal to me. HOWEVER, on some level, I don't think they'll be completely over. I do think, believe and hope Buffy will end up with Spike, but even then I know Angel is gonna be in Buffy's heart, just like it would be the other way around. So what I'm thinking, even if Bangel is over, there will be a smidgen part of not overing. You know, even if she'll be with Spike and they'll get married, and have children 😉

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I'm very much conflicted about it myself.

I mean, we finally got something, after all the time. They were intimate again, after all these years. I was happy. I was more than happy.

But overall, do I like it? I would have to say no.

If you asked me when I first read it, I would probably tell you I don't care about what will happen, only that matters is what happened.. but now, I had a change of heart.

 

[Flannen]

You know I'm a Spuffy, so the Bangel concept doesn't appeal to me...You know, even if she'll be with Spike and they'll get married, and have children 😉

Hey! No swearing! This is the Bangel forum: a safe heaven from such obscenities as those listed above! 😛

I wish I could help, I do. But I haven't any had any interest or read the comics, although I have kept up with the big story lines. All I can do is sympathise with how you feel about the threats to the 'ship. It sucks but you have to have a little bit of faith and acceptance that this is the awful path we call 'shipping!

 

[VisionGirl]

It sucks but you have to have a little bit of faith and acceptance that this is the awful path we call 'shipping!

'Shipping is hard then. Maybe I'm not cut out for it. Breaks my heart too much. 🙁

And I'm going to say this here since it's the Bangel forum: why is Angel always made out to be the bastard, while Spike ends up as the good guy? That's my jealousy coming out (& I am a Spike fan). It's just that I think there are large portions of season 8 that are untrue to and nullify Angel's character from his own series (TV & comic). Don't get me wrong, I did like lots of things about season 8, this part of it is just hard for me. I'm not giving up on the comics, I have hope for the Angel & Faith storyline (just not romance please). I'm hoping it will get him back to where he needs to be. And I do have the IDW comics to finish, I'm enjoying those.

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]- thank you for the beautiful GIFs. I think I may have to use one in my siggy, to remind me why I love them.

 

[Kean]

And I'm going to say this here since it's the Bangel forum: why is Angel always made out to be the bastard, while Spike ends up as the good guy? That's my jealousy coming out (& I am a Spike fan). It's just that I think there are large portions of season 8 that are untrue to and nullify Angel's character from his own series (TV & comic). Don't get me wrong, I did like lots of things about season 8, this part of it is just hard for me. I'm not giving up on the comics, I have hope for the Angel & Faith storyline (just not romance please). I'm hoping it will get him back to where he needs to be. And I do have the IDW comics to finish, I'm enjoying those.

I don't think we should be asking Why Angel and Not Spike, but just, Why Angel? And I think the simple answer is because he is the main man. The way Buffy is the main woman. What happens to him shapes what happens to quite a number of other characters. His influence has a ripple effect.

In one way it is great because we get stories like S9 which I feel will be a great exploration of his character, but in other ways it is awful like S8 which served to tear his character apart.

It's a Catch 22. Do we want him to function only to facilitate and boost other characters stories, or do we want him having his own story, regardless of what that might mean? I'll take option 2 any day.

 

[VisionGirl]

It's a Catch 22. Do we want him to function only to facilitate and boost other characters stories, or do we want him having his own story, regardless of what that might mean? I'll take option 2 any day.

You're right. I love AtS Angel. I love him with his mistakes and all. I think that's what makes him such a fascinating character to me. I've been thinking about your banner a lot lately. Both Spike & Angel tell Buffy that that is why they love her: because she tries. I'm rewatching AtS (at season 3 right now), and Cordy tells Angel the same thing. No matter what stupid, misguided thing he does, he always gets back up, he always tries again. I don't love these characters because they're perfect, but because they keep going despite their shortcomings. It's inspiring to me, and I know I need to focus on that aspect of it.

 

[Kean]

You're right. I love AtS Angel. I love him with his mistakes and all. I think that's what makes him such a fascinating character to me. I've been thinking about your banner a lot lately. Both Spike & Angel tell Buffy that that is why they love her: because she tries. I'm rewatching AtS (at season 3 right now), and Cordy tells Angel the same thing. No matter what stupid, misguided thing he does, he always gets back up, he always tries again. I don't love these characters because they're perfect, but because they keep going despite their shortcomings. It's inspiring to me, and I know I need to focus on that aspect of it.

The sentiment expressed in my banner is the reason why Angel is not only my favourite Buffyverse character, but my favourite fictional character. Period. The fact that he remains ever hopeful, seeing off bitterness that must grab at his very flesh, and does so in the face of the stark truth of his own failings and cruelty of the world he lives in, just awes me.

If he hasn't been beaten before, how I could I ever believe he could be beaten yet?

 

[VisionGirl]

The sentiment expressed in my banner is the reason why Angel is not only my favourite Buffyverse character, but my favourite fictional character. Period. The fact that he remains ever hopeful, seeing off bitterness that must grab at his very flesh, and does so in the face of the stark truth of his own failings and cruelty of the world he lives in, just awes me.

If he hasn't been beaten before, how I could I ever believe he could be beaten yet?

That makes me want to cry!

I find it interesting that Joss says that he has never completely understood Angel. He says that it's because he's a hero, but I think it's more than that, I think it's his complexity. And I still contend that the comics would be much better off if they could employ an AtS writer. Because those guys did get him: Shawn Ryan, David Greenwalt, etc.

 

[Kairos]

I find it interesting that Joss says that he has never completely understood Angel. He says that it's because he's a hero, but I think it's more than that, I think it's his complexity.

Whoa, I think you just hit on something major there. It always irked me (very slightly) that Joss thought Spike was the "most evolved" character because it sounds like he's saying Spike is the most complex or in some way the best character. I never lined those quotes up with his other quotes about having trouble writing Angel, though, and now it seems clear: Angel is so complex that even Joss can't fully understand him.

Suddenly Spike's fabled independence doesn't seem quite so impressive.

 

[VisionGirl]

Whoa, I think you just hit on something major there. It always irked me (very slightly) that Joss thought Spike was the "most evolved" character because it sounds like he's saying Spike is the most complex or in some way the best character. I never lined those quotes up with his other quotes about having trouble writing Angel, though, and now it seems clear: Angel is so complex that even Joss can't fully understand him.

Suddenly Spike's fabled independence doesn't seem quite so impressive.

Lol, I completely agree! And I admit that I just plain don't understand that quote, in fact I have thought about starting a thread on it. But I guess evolved doesn't necessarilly equal complex.

 

[Kean]

The thing is, Angel's continued existence stands as a complete contradiction to Joss's comments. If he didn't "get" Angel or wasn't interested in his story why did ATF or S9 for that matter, happen at all? He didn't have to merge the verse, he didn't have to bring Angel in last season.

And him saying that he doesn't get Angel because he is a hero is crap; Buffy is a hero. Buffy is THE hero. Angel isn't anymore likely to be one than she is. His billowy coat and scowl doesn't create a hero status as unchallenging or simple as Superman, which I know Joss doesn't like much. Angel shouldn't be a hero. Not at all. Why Whedon keeps saying otherwise baffles me.

 

[VisionGirl]

I've been thinking more about this and have a question for y'all: what do you hope to see in season 9 with regards to Bangel? For me, I first of all love that Angel has his own series. I'm hoping that his work and friendship with Faith will be a source of growth for him (although no romance, please!). And I completely agree that Buffy & Angel need to be apart for now. What happened in season 8 was so huge, so devastating. But I honestly hope at some point for some kind of interaction. I think they need to talk about things. I'm not saying that that conversation will resolve everything. But really, they're the 2 pivotal figures in what happened in season 8, and they're both going through a lot of the same emotions: guilt, depression, anger, confusion, betrayal, blame, isolation. While Angel certainly deserves the greatest share of the blame, they both participated together in those actions. And they both felt happiness with each other for some fleeting moments. It just makes sense for them to at some point to discuss some of that together. What do you guys think?

 

[brinkster130]

I've been thinking more about this and have a question for y'all: what do you hope to see in season 9 with regards to Bangel? For me, I first of all love that Angel has his own series. I'm hoping that his work and friendship with Faith will be a source of growth for him (although no romance, please!). And I completely agree that Buffy & Angel need to be apart for now. What happened in season 8 was so huge, so devastating. But I honestly hope at some point for some kind of interaction. I think they need to talk about things. I'm not saying that that conversation will resolve everything. But really, they're the 2 pivotal figures in what happened in season 8, and they're both going through a lot of the same emotions: guilt, depression, anger, confusion, betrayal, blame, isolation. While Angel certainly deserves the greatest share of the blame, they both participated together in those actions. And they both felt happiness with each other for some fleeting moments. It just makes sense for them to at some point to discuss some of that together. What do you guys think?

I hope we get to see both Angel and Buffy work through this and come out stronger. Not together as a couple, but as individuals who are both dedicated to the fight and who have found some sort of peace with the events that took place. As of right now they are both broken and I think we need to see them put themselves back together before we can see them together again.

I'd like to see them talk at some point. I don't know how much time they will need before they can face one another, but I do believe that some sort of conversation could benefit them both.

And I am really hoping we don't see a Angel/Faith romance. It would be damaging to both their characters.