I have to start with this, I'm afraid. This may be true. I wouldn't say its true for myself, as I said in a post above. However you can't say this and not accept a Bangel fan saying that most Spuffy fans hate Bangel. Some of the first hardcore Spuffy fans I spoke to on BB, hated Bangel, just as I'm sure you've met some Bangels who hate Spuffy. It is only fair to say that this is the case for both sides.
And referring to WA's OP question, there are just as many Spuffy fans who refuse to accept that Buffy needed, loved and relied upon Angel, and fail to see the importance of that relationship.
It's totally equal.
And she comes back swinging! ☺
For one thing, I can't believe why anyone would dismiss or deny the importance of Angel in Buffys life. That's just dumb. (No offense.)
Now, about Spike and Buffy:
Believe me, I of all people understand why you can't believe she loved him. The way he treated him in S6 was certainly contradictory to it.
Also, I'd like to clarify that I don't believe she realized her love for him
until the end.
OK now for my "rebuttal":
Despite being a Spuffy since Spike and Buffy walked across the screen together, I didn't believe she loved him until recently. I gave it a lot of thought, and I was always trying to justify to myself why I found their relationship to be so important, and why it was so interesting for me. To be honest, I think that Buffy's feelings toward him were developing into love in Season 7, and she just wasn't aware of it. It was a natural progression. He slowly became the kind of man she could love and respect. I mean, it's not like she was doing any serious reflecting on the changing matter of their relationship at that point. After all, there were more important, pressing matters.
I believe, and just recently came to this realization, that it wasn't until she was faced with the real possibility of losing him that she realized her true feelings for him. That's why she told him she loved him. Because she did, at that moment. Just because he didn't believe her doesn't mean she didn't mean it. My mother was watching "˜Touched' with me yesterday and was referring to Buffy's "look of love" she gives Spike when they're just lying together, staring into each other's eyes. So, my point in, even someone who isn't well-versed in the Buffyverse can see she loves him. It's plain to see in the acting.
I have to agree with BS here, if this is what Bangel was then I would have disliked it as much as I do Spuffy, with regards to being violent and destructive, in particular. You make it sound like Buffy/Angel have missed out on something but not experiencing this together, which is really confusing. A relationship founded on violence and destruction, and not necessarily on a physical level, shouldn't be a relationship, as far as I'm concerned.
What I mean here is that is what
I find so interesting about the Spuffy dynamic. I agree that is not what a relationship should be based on, of course - but this is fiction. And it's about what's the most entertaining. And for me, that was Spuffy.
And how is Bangel not passionate? Just because it wasn't portrayed in rather more graphic sex scenes or rooted in 'hatred' and 'disgust' doesn't mean they didn't have passion. They showed passion in body language and words and the way they looked at each other from 'Angel' (if not before) all the way up to 'Chosen'.
Just as you connect to Bangel, just as it resonates with you, Spuffy does with
me. I just never saw any chemistry with Buffy and Angel. We all see things differently, interpret things differently. This is what is so powerful about a complex text like Buffy. And yes, Bangel had passion, of course. I didn't mean to say it didn't. Spuffy had a different, more physical and raw, uninhibited passion.
I'm not going to quote the whole paragraph as you'll know which one I'm referring to. I agree that Spike was Buffy's best friend in season seven, and that was all. You said yourself they went from enemies to lovers to friends. Which is where they are at now. Like Joey and Rachel, (I'm aware I keep using Friends refs in 'ship debates lol) they tried it and it didn't work. Spike and Buffy as friends, works, so much better than they do romantically, they are past romance now, because they're 'romance' was exactly about violence and destruction.
This is where I disagree with you, friend. They never did "try" to make it work, in my opinion. He did, not her. They were sleeping together, sure, but the whole time Spike wanted more. But they were never together or close, as Buffy was so adamant about saying over and over. What if, post-Chosen, they tried again to have a healthy relationship, now that he was a soul? I think it would go quite differently.
Personally I think she chose Spike as her Champion 'cos she had an inkling what might happen and would rather sacrifice him than Angel! 😛 (totally joking here!)
Should I even reply to this? LOL Of course, I feel differently. I believe she gave the amulet to him because she believed in him, because she wanted to give him the chance to prove himself as a hero. And I certainly don't believe she thought it would
kill him. Angel said it was sopposed to give strength to the person who wore it - not kill them.
But, in all seriousness, her reasons for choosing Spike as the 'Champion' didn't come to being about love, it came down to what she said. She needed Angel to prepare for war if she didn't win. Or, looking at if from a more emotional point of view, even if there was more too it than simply having Angel as the 'second wave' she chose Spike and rewarded him for being her friend. For being able to be there for her, after finally ceasing to expect and beg something more from her, for which I think he did deserve it.
I don't know about this. I don't know if she intended the giving of the amulet to him as a reward. It was more a privilege, or a gift he was deserving of.
There were so many times when Angel was this person in the earlier seasons, and the later ones! Even in season two, when Buffy is ranting about Ted to Angel, he challenges her reaction to it, guides her round to thinking that it's not Ted, but just the fact he's Joyce's boyfriend, and giving him a chance/ Turns out it was actually Ted, but you get what I'm saying here. Similarly in 'What's My Line Pt I' Angel is there for Buffy when she's feeling down about Career Week and her pre-destined future. Later in the series, when Joyce has died, Angel again comes to her aid and acts as her hero.
Ok, agreed about Angel. What I meant was that Spike was there for her at a time when Angel, or anyone for that matter, wasn't (In 'Empty Spaces' - 'Touched'). Still, I feel that Spike's importance in helping Buffy out of her self-loathing phase after she comes back from the dead, and with her coming to terms with the "darkness" inside of her can't be understated. With his help, she was able to mature and grow.
I honestly don't think she did love him, but that's just my opinion.
I can't "“ I won't "“ believe that Buffy is the kind of person who would lie about loving someone. I have more respect for her character than that. Even to "make him feel better" or because she felt he deserved it. (This is the argument I have heard and once believed.) Riley also "deserved" her love, but she never told him. Joss said in the commentary for "Chosen" that Buffy meant what she said to Spike. She did love him. It's not really open to interpretation, if you believe that Joss should have the last say, like I do.
So, do you reconcile that? So you don't believe she loved him, I get that. But what do you make of Buffy's "I love you"? It happened, she said it, and it can't be dismissed, even if you don't believe her.
Spuffy was just as doomed from the start as Bangel was, and can therefore take on exactly the same connotations as you've described above. But Bangel is more than just a 'great story' or 'melodrama', and its rather dismissive to say so.
I don't think Spuffy was doomed. He died. They didn't have the chance to explore what they could have been together. Bangel did. For three years. And it still didn't work out. Just sayin'.
You see, this is what I have a bit of a problem with. You say it just comes down to opinion, and doesn't mean that either one is better, and then completely deprecate Bangel by saying it just makes for great TV, which suggests that you do think one is better than the other?
I did not intend at all for my comment about "Great TV" to appear flippant, because it was not at all intended that way. Quite the opposite, really. I meant it as a true praise. I truly think that the whole storyline with Angel turning into Angelus and being the Big Bad is one of the best plots in the whole show!
Also, my feelings for Spuffy are something I'm still working through. How I feel about things, it's changing. So, I apologize if I might seem contradictory at times.
😉 It's hard to explain something you love.
No, Spuffy weren't lacking in epic scenes, just like Bangel did have those tiny, subtle moments. Like I said, their body language, the lingering looks they shared, the whole interaction in 'Chosen' the 'I'm not getting any older', even in episodes like 'The Yoko Factor' the subtlety is there.
OK. I just don't see it, really.
I can, and do, accept that Buffy needed and relied on Spike throughout the series, but it's not that I refuse to accept she loved him, I just don't see it, it just doesn't invoke those feelings within me.
"Just don't see it?" I honestly find this hard to believe. Her affection is so strong for him in the last season, its obvious. Perhaps you should go back and re-watch S7 again. The way she acts with him; constantly saving him time and time again, even putting him before her friends, making escuses for him despite him being a threat to her friends, removing his chip, threatening to kill "allow" Spike to kill Wood if he threatened him again, mentioning to Willow why everyone thinks she's "still in love with Spike", the jealous look she gives Faith in 'Dirty Girls' when she's sitting on Spike's bed...and of course, admitting she "was there with him too" when he says it was the best night of his life in "Touched." And I won't even mention 'Chosen', since I already addressed it earlier in the thread.
It's nothing to do with feeling threatened or being a 'romantic' and not a 'realist'. Like I've always said, it just comes down to your own ideals about love, which as far as I'm concerned doesn't mean I'm not realistic or live with my head in the clouds.
Agreed. We all do have ideals about love that effect how we view fiction. Mine happens to be a little more jaded, a little more bitter. I'm well aware of my stellar history with men (lol). Maybe this is why I like Spuffy so much, who knows. And for the record, I didn't mean "romantic" as a derogatory term, which is how you're seeming to interpret it. I love romance like the rest of them. I just simply meant that Bangel was more romantic than Spuffy - I'm sure you agree.
If Buffy and Angel had never seen each other again after 'Graduation Day Pt II' then I can see that yes, that would be the stuff of fairytales and the chances of a long lost reunion would be unlikely, but the chemistry and tenderness they still share in 'Pangs', 'The Yoko Factor', 'Forever' and 'Chosen', not to mention the Angel episodes, shows how much they did reach a level of understanding, how much they have matured from the love of seasons two and three, and how possible it is they will one day find each other again.
Well, I'm one of those who believe that if Spike and Buffy meet again, it will be affectionate and she will be very happy to see him, and there will be tenderness and chemistry. But, that's just me hoping it'll happen
🙂
