Bangel vs Spuffy Screen Time

white avenger

white avenger
Joined
Sep 30, 2006
Messages
16,036
Age
78
Location
rome, georgia
I;ve seen this several times in various discussions that Season 7 contained "too much" Spuffy, to the point that their story kept other favorite characters in the background. I've looked back at some of the earlier seasons, in particular Season 3, and I really can't see a lot of difference in the time devoted to one relationship or the other. In fact, if anything, I thought that Joss spent a bit more time spent on Angel's story after his return from hell than was spent with Spike. Maybe it seemed longer to some folks because his story was more integral to the main story line that Angel's was, but as far as actual Buffy/Spike time in any sort of romantic content, which is what the two ship names imply to me,I simply don't see it.

As I said, Spike's character was more central to the general plot in Season 7, but that was because a large part of the season's story involved the First Evil and its use of him in its plans. It could just as easily have been the same First Evil bringing back Dark Willow from the previous season, or Robin Wood being its agent, assigned to infiltrate and disrupt Buffy's partnership with her friends (which is pretty much what he did anyway) Would there have been as much complaint if that much time and story content had been devoted o Willow, Xander, or Giles?
 
I think it has more to do that it felt more like an us vs them thing between Spike, Buffy and the Scoobies in S7. While Angel and Buffy were a core part of the story in the first 3 seasons, it never felt that Buffy's relationship with the Scoobies was being sacrificed or neglected in favour for her romance with Angel, where as for some people that is exactly what S7 felt like.
 
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
[No message]
L
ladydorotea
[No message]
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
[No message]
NeonNightLight
NeonNightLight
[No message]
brinkster130
brinkster130
[No message]
Dang, Miss K, you're quick! I barely got this posted, and you're already commenting.

I agree, the story line put Buffy and the Scoobies in opposition much more than before, but that was due as much as anything to the various manipulation schemes of the First Evil. It manipulated Spike into killing again and Wood, by telling him that Spike was the vampire who killed his mother, into playing a key part in breaking up the Scoobies and badly damaging the relationship between Buffy and Giles. It WAS an "us vs them" season, with the First Evil in all it's guises being the "them," but does that really make it any more of a "Spuffy" season than Season 3 was a "Bangel" season?
 
I think [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] nailed it on the head, but to me, it isn't a complaint, or at least, not unless it suits my argument 😛.

I was very much on Team Buffy during S7, so seeing Spike be pretty much the only character sticking up for her made me feel pretty good about him. Buffy's actions that season, in a range of areas, are pretty divisive, but I landed on her side for the most part and so, by extension, Spike's as well. I was fine with the way she handled his mind-control by The First and I thought she was right to stand with him, as he stood with her.

Plus, by the back nine of that season, all of the other Scoobies are acting so wacky that it would get me fired up whenever Spike would stand up and defend her. So really, it never bothered me.

I never felt though that the Buffy/Angel stuff in S2 or S3 dominated the feel of the show like Buffy/Spike in S7 did though. Willow, Oz, Giles, Xander, Cordy, Faith and Buffy all had their own major arcs and developments in those years. With S7, Buffy and Spike was one of the few storyline arcs really pushed and explored. So I think that leads some people to think that it came at the expense of everyone else, which I don't really agree with.
 
S
slayer6
nailed it
I think it has more to do that it felt more like an us vs them thing between Spike, Buffy and the Scoobies in S7. While Angel and Buffy were a core part of the story in the first 3 seasons, it never felt that Buffy's relationship with the Scoobies was being sacrificed or neglected in favour for her romance with Angel, where as for some people that is exactly what S7 felt like.


I think Kean hits the nail on the head here. Buffy/ Angel is a big part of the early seasons, and it causes some friction- particularly between Buffy and Xander- but the show isn't portrayed as "Buffy and Angel vs. the rest of the world". Buffy and Xander are still incredibly close despite the fact that they disagree on Angel, Willow and Giles, pre - Angelus actually seem quite supportive of the relationship in their own way, and when the rest of the gang DOES have issues with Angel, they are portrayed as at least being understandable. "Revelations", for example- the Scoobies are PISSED that Buffy didn't tell them about Angel, and Buffy clearly understands why they are pissed, because she avoided telling them in the first place.

In S7, meanwhile, you've got Buffy striding about telling people how "Spike is the only one who has her back", which blatantly doesn't make any sense. Xander makes that big speech to the Potentials about how much Buffy cares about them, and goes straight into danger with her, despite the lack of plan. In "Get It Done", Willow steps in to stop Kennedy from yelling at Buffy- and on the topic of Willow, I seem to recall Buffy having a go at both her and Spike for not using their powers as they could, and BOTH of them then step up to the mark to help her- Spike to kill the demon, and Willow to open the portal. Yes, Giles tries to have Spike killed against her wishes, so I can see her doubting Giles's commitment to the cause, if you like, but the idea that no-one has her back but Spike isn't true until she makes it so. And that's the problem- on the one hand, Buffy makes some bad decisions, and says some terrible things to her friends and the Potentials. And even before they put their foot down and kick her out, she basically seems to see the world as "No-one having her back but Spike", even when that doesn't mesh with what's actually going on.

In addition, the rest of the Scoobies don't really get much in the way of character development during all this mess, with the possible exception of Willow moving on from Tara's death and her fear of her powers. I mean, S2 is basically THE B/A season- the main arc is their relationship progressing, and Angel losing his soul and becoming the Big Bad as a result. They still manage to take time out of this storyline to focus on the Scoobies - Willow's moving on from Xander towards Oz, and beginning her forays into magic- not to mention her growing self confidence- Cordelia becoming more a part of the gang, and willing to stand up to Harmony and co. and show genuine compassion to others, Giles's past being explored and beginning a relationship with Jenny, Joyce finding out about Buffy being the Slayer, etc. Taken into account, it's easy to see why Buffy/ Spike seems to overwhelm S7 to a greater extent than B/A does the earlier seasons.
 
Wesley Pryce
Wesley Pryce
absolutely right
R
Robb Stark
[No message]
NeonNightLight
NeonNightLight
[No message]
Buffy and spike as a romance doesn't bother me,its the lack of attention to the other characters. There were so many character arcs left unfinished from season 6. They should have dealt with those arcs,and they should have progressed the characters we know and love,which includes Spike and Buffy,but isn't limited to just Spike and Buffy. This is my main issue with the seventh season storyline. 🙂
 
I think everyones explained it really well why season 7s focus was off.

I get your point about the season being an "us vs them" set up, but the part I hated about it was that Spike loved that, Spikes reaction wasn't that Buffy should try and fix things with her friends, which if he cared about her he would have, but his reaction is "screw them, it's you and me vs the world". Spike being a souled good guy now should have had him caring about Buffy more, not continuing to try and drive a wedge between Buffy and scoobies for his own selfish wants.

Angel didn't have the same mentality, which made everything had a much nicer flow to it.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
[No message]
I get your point about the season being an "us vs them" set up, but the part I hated about it was that Spike loved that, Spikes reaction wasn't that Buffy should try and fix things with her friends, which if he cared about her he would have, but his reaction is "screw them, it's you and me vs the world". Spike being a souled good guy now should have had him caring about Buffy more, not continuing to try and drive a wedge between Buffy and scoobies for his own selfish wants.

Angel didn't have the same mentality, which made everything had a much nicer flow to it.

I seem to remember Spike saying something about, "It wasn't something you gave up, she took it." and the difference being "We can take it back." I got the impression that he was referring to regaining command of the Scoobies and the Potentials. That seems more like, "You and me against Faith (and maybe Giles and Wood)" than "You and me against 'em all."

Granted, Spike's first loyalty is to Buffy, pretty much like Faith's first loyalty was to Angel just a few weeks earlier in his own series, but I'm pretty sure that he knew that just the two of them couldn't fight the First Evil with any degree of success.
 
I seem to remember Spike saying something about, "It wasn't something you gave up, she took it." and the difference being "We can take it back." I got the impression that he was referring to regaining command of the Scoobies and the Potentials. That seems more like, "You and me against Faith (and maybe Giles and Wood)" than "You and me against 'em all."

Nope the line is "You were their leader, and you still are. This isn't something you gave up, it's something they took." - everything about that is so wrong, she was their leader, they didn't like how she was doing it and Spike thinks she should take back leadership from her friends and force them to listen to her, nothing about that is encouraging it's just more of Spike saying whatever Buffy wants to hear, not what she needs to hear.

Granted, Spike's first loyalty is to Buffy, pretty much like Faith's first loyalty was to Angel just a few weeks earlier in his own series, but I'm pretty sure that he knew that just the two of them couldn't fight the First Evil with any degree of success.
I dont. I think it was exactly the same kinda thinking he used back in season 5 with Glory, he wanted him Buffy and Dawn to runaway and leave the scoobies behind, which is beyond stupid since Glory could squash him like a bug, and the only one who was any good against her was Willow and Buffy, hell even Xander was useful with the wrecking ball then Spike was in that fight.
 
Nope the line is "You were their leader, and you still are. This isn't something you gave up, it's something they took." - everything about that is so wrong, she was their leader, they didn't like how she was doing it and Spike thinks she should take back leadership from her friends and force them to listen to her, nothing about that is encouraging it's just more of Spike saying whatever Buffy wants to hear, not what she needs to hear.


I don't. I think it was exactly the same kinda thinking he used back in season 5 with Glory, he wanted him Buffy and Dawn to runaway and leave the scoobies behind, which is beyond stupid since Glory could squash him like a bug, and the only one who was any good against her was Willow and Buffy, hell even Xander was useful with the wrecking ball then Spike was in that fight.

Taking back leadership of the group, whether "they" took it, or "she" took it, isn't "you and ma against the world." It's "you and me against a specific small group, possibly only one or two individuals (Faith and possibly Wood)." "The world" is what Buffy was attempting to save, and Spike was well aware of that.

And as for escaping Glory, the only thing that she was interested in was Dawn. The two strongest fighters ("Besides me, he's the only one who stands a chance against Glory" wasn't referring to Willow) taking her far enough away from Sunnydale that she couldn't be brought back in time to open the dimensional, which was exactly what Buffy was trying to do in the first place makes perfect sense, if you consider Buffy's single minded fixation on protecting Dawn to the last breath in her, or anyone else's, body. That wasn't Spike abandoning the Scoobies, it was Spike supporting Buffy's plan to save Dawn above all else.

And the only reason that Glory was able to get Dawn back was that the underpowered motor home didn't have enough speed or maneuverability to escape the Knights of Byzantium. If they hadn't been stopped, it's doubtful that Glory would have found them in time, since no one in Sunnydale knew where they were going, and the only reason that Glory caught up to them at all was because Buffy called Ben, told him where they were, then waited for him to get there. Glory had superhuman strength, and was extremely durable, but there wan no indication that she could teleport herself from one point to another. A faster, more agile automobile would have taken Spike, Buffy, and Dawn safely away from her.

And as for the abandoned Scoobies' welfare, they would have all fit into Xander's car and gotten away, either following Buffy or heading in a totally different direction, giving Glory two trails to have to follow, doubling the chances of assuring Dawn's safety. Even better, by using both Xander's and Giles' cars, or getting Giles another one, assuming that he no longer had the Mercedes that had replaced his Citroen, or that it was the "little red sports number" that Spike had referred to, they could have laid two false trails, making Dawn's chances of escape even better.
 
Taking back leadership of the group, whether "they" took it, or "she" took it, isn't "you and ma against the world." It's "you and me against a specific small group, possibly only one or two individuals (Faith and possibly Wood)." "The world" is what Buffy was attempting to save, and Spike was well aware of that.

If he's separating her from her friends, everyone she has in her life, how is that not 'us against the wold" - not the literal world, I dont know why you'd take it to mean that, but the metaphorical world.. There's no point saying it was Faith and possibly Wood, those two played the least part in kicking her out, it was everyone's decision.

He even says a little later that she can get them back, so he's well aware that it's the whole group he talking about, except he wants her to demand power back, thankful she's not that stupid and she realises she could take the power back, but questions should she

And as for escaping Glory, the only thing that she was interested in was Dawn. The two strongest fighters ("Besides me, he's the only one who stands a chance against Glory" wasn't referring to Willow) taking her far enough away from Sunnydale that she couldn't be brought back in time to open the dimensional, which was exactly what Buffy was trying to do in the first place makes perfect sense, if you consider Buffy's single minded fixation on protecting Dawn to the last breath in her, or anyone else's, body. That wasn't Spike abandoning the Scoobies, it was Spike supporting Buffy's plan to save Dawn above all else.

And the only reason that Glory was able to get Dawn back was that the underpowered motor home didn't have enough speed or maneuverability to escape the Knights of Byzantium. If they hadn't been stopped, it's doubtful that Glory would have found them in time, since no one in Sunnydale knew where they were going, and the only reason that Glory caught up to them at all was because Buffy called Ben, told him where they were, then waited for him to get there. Glory had superhuman strength, and was extremely durable, but there wan no indication that she could teleport herself from one point to another. A faster, more agile automobile would have taken Spike, Buffy, and Dawn safely away from her.

And as for the abandoned Scoobies' welfare, they would have all fit into Xander's car and gotten away, either following Buffy or heading in a totally different direction, giving Glory two trails to have to follow, doubling the chances of assuring Dawn's safety. Even better, by using both Xander's and Giles' cars, or getting Giles another one, assuming that he no longer had the Mercedes that had replaced his Citroen, or that it was the "little red sports number" that Spike had referred to, they could have laid two false trails, making Dawn's chances of escape even better.

Sorry man this is just wrong, just cuz Buffy said Spike was the next best thing to fight Glory doesn't mean she was right. By the finale she's realised that and realised it's Willow thats the second most powerful weapon she has, Spike was no extra help in that finale battle, all this crap about Spike being the second best fighter is total bull. Spike fought Glorys minions along side the humans, he was no more useful then Anya who was able to hold her own against the minions. Willow and Xander were the ones who actually helped fight Glory.

I have no doubt that Spike wasn't to help get Buffy away from Spike, but to think there is no motivation there to be Buffys white knight and just have the two if them off alone with Dawn is crazy, thats his ideal situation. If the knights had caught up with the two of them they'd have been to Busy fighting to protect Dawn, it probably would have been Dawn hurt and Buffy still would have called Ben.
 
Right. The Spuffy stuff was just about Spuffy, while the Bangel stuff was part of the storyline.

I think the Spuffy relationship was part of the story too. Buffy was supposed to be depressed and trying to feel and she used Spike for that in s6. In s7 I don't think their relationship sacrificed anything from the rest of the characters or storyline. I feel like it was just part of it It seems to me that it could be argued they spent a lot of time on it in s6 but s7 I don't see it at all. I think that they integrated it in just fine and that the story flowed very well with all of the interpersonal relationships.

---------- Post added at 09:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 AM ----------

If he's separating her from her friends, everyone she has in her life, how is that not 'us against the wold" - not the literal world, I dont know why you'd take it to mean that, but the metaphorical world.. There's no point saying it was Faith and possibly Wood, those two played the least part in kicking her out, it was everyone's decision.

He even says a little later that she can get them back, so he's well aware that it's the whole group he talking about, except he wants her to demand power back, thankful she's not that stupid and she realises she could take the power back, but questions should she



Sorry man this is just wrong, just cuz Buffy said Spike was the next best thing to fight Glory doesn't mean she was right. By the finale she's realised that and realised it's Willow thats the second most powerful weapon she has, Spike was no extra help in that finale battle, all this crap about Spike being the second best fighter is total bull. Spike fought Glorys minions along side the humans, he was no more useful then Anya who was able to hold her own against the minions. Willow and Xander were the ones who actually helped fight Glory.

I have no doubt that Spike wasn't to help get Buffy away from Spike, but to think there is no motivation there to be Buffys white knight and just have the two if them off alone with Dawn is crazy, thats his ideal situation. If the knights had caught up with the two of them they'd have been to Busy fighting to protect Dawn, it probably would have been Dawn hurt and Buffy still would have called Ben.

Come on be realistic here. That last part is a joke to me. You make it seem like Spike is no more useful in a fight than anya or any other human. Whether you like Spike or not it is ridiculous to claim he is only as good in a fight as a human
 
white avenger
white avenger
[No message]
Moscow Watcher
Moscow Watcher
[No message]
I think everyones explained it really well why season 7s focus was off.

I get your point about the season being an "us vs them" set up, but the part I hated about it was that Spike loved that, Spikes reaction wasn't that Buffy should try and fix things with her friends, which if he cared about her he would have, but his reaction is "screw them, it's you and me vs the world". Spike being a souled good guy now should have had him caring about Buffy more, not continuing to try and drive a wedge between Buffy and scoobies for his own selfish wants.

Angel didn't have the same mentality, which made everything had a much nicer flow to it.


I'm not sure that I would argue that souled Spike loved that Buffy was distanced from her friends (soulless Spike on the other hand, absolutely). I just think he didn't really realise how important they were to her, or didn't really care. Since first becoming part of the Scoobies in S4, he's been pretty dismissive of, and antagonistic towards, the other Scoobies- despite how vital they all tend to be to Buffy's fight, and how many times they've saved each other. As you say, Spike's reaction when he finds out about what happened is not to try and ascertain why the Scoobies and Potentials turned on Buffy so drastically, nor to try and figure out how to fix this, it's to beat the crap out of Faith, and then say "Screw them, we're taking the power back", to Buffy.

And if he did mean "mostly Faith and Wood", then that just shows how little he has bothered to find out about the situation. ALL of the Scoobies and Potentials united against Buffy's leadership. The Potentials voted Faith in as their leader. Dawn told Buffy that if she couldn't accept Faith as the leader, then she had to leave. All Wood really said in the conversation was that Faith had the floor- implying that she should be listened to- and Faith is probably the one who sticks up for Buffy the most, telling them that she ISN'T the best choice for leadership, and that Buffy needs to take a breather, not necessarily quit altogether, and asking Buffy if she can follow (implying she'd be willing to have Buffy on the team still if Buffy was willing to let someone else take the lead). None of this fits with the picture that Spike tries to paint of Faith the evil bitch come to take the leadership from Buffy. Because Spike doesn't bother to find out.

And again, I think this is where it differs from B/A - Buffy and Angel disagreed sometimes. And Angel knows how important Buffy's friends are to her. Spike (re-ensouled) is Buffy's Yes Man, and doesn't give a damn about her friends. So when Spike (and Buffy, actually with the "only Spike has my back" thing) are dismissive of her friends throughout the later part of the season, and the story pays them little to no attention, then that only seems to re-enforce this idea that people have.

Come on be realistic here. That last part is a joke to me. You make it seem like Spike is no more useful in a fight than anya or any other human. Whether you like Spike or not it is ridiculous to claim he is only as good in a fight as a human

Forgive me if I'm wrong- I assume what BEG means is not that Spike is no more useful in a fight in general than a human. Obviously, if Spike were up against Anya, Xander, or any other human character, there is a good chance he would win (though all of them have taken out vampires before, so it's possible it would go the other way). However, in the fight against Glory, he doesn't really contribute any more than Anya. In fact, given that Anya suggested using the hammer and Dagonsphere, if we include planning, he probably contributed less. He probably takes out more minions than Anya or the others, as he is stronger and better in a fight, but it's Willow who weakens Glory, it's Xander who weakens her further with the wrecking ball, it's Giles who kills Ben and it's Buffy who kills Doc and closes the portal. Whether or not you like Spike, you have to admit that his contribution to the overall big fight in this case is not that great.
 
Last edited:
Black Eye Guy
Black Eye Guy
Completly agree!
NeonNightLight
NeonNightLight
[No message]
Come on be realistic here. That last part is a joke to me. You make it seem like Spike is no more useful in a fight than anya or any other human. Whether you like Spike or not it is ridiculous to claim he is only as good in a fight as a human

Exactly like Himiko said, Spike is a better fighter then Anya and Xander and I'm sure he could take them no problem, but for all the "Spike is second best" he played no part in helping to win against Glory, his contribution was getting Buffy to realise that her blood would close the portal, but in the actual fight Willow and Xander were more useful, I'd forgotten that Anya had suggested the hammer, so even she was more useful.

Spike is a good fighter, but he is not the hero of the story like he is often made out to be, he doesn't play big roles in the battles, except for season 7 (and even then thats not his ability thats useful)
 
This website might be of use in this discussion. It has graphs that show the amount of time each character spends on screen.

http://visualizingbuffy.com/

Then we're know once and for all who actually spent more time on-screen.

I can only see Season 1 on this site. Is that right or has my internet connection gone wonky again?

Personally, I think data such as this holds very little weight because it says nothing to the viewer experience.

Even if the data showed that Spike had less screen time with Buffy during s7 than other characters, it shows nothing of the influence his relationship with Buffy had on other scenes and other character interactions. That can only be appreciated through watching.

Also, at the end of the day, how any individual viewer reacts to the character interactions of S7 is completely objective and informed by a thousand different factors.
 
R
Robb Stark
[No message]
Personally, I think data such as this holds very little weight because it says nothing to the viewer experience.

Even if the data showed that Spike had less screen time with Buffy during s7 than other characters, it shows nothing of the influence his relationship with Buffy had on other scenes and other character interactions. That can only be appreciated through watching.

Also, at the end of the day, how any individual viewer reacts to the character interactions of S7 is completely objective and informed by a thousand different factors.

But the original question was only about the amount of screen time devoted to the two relationships. How either affected the individual viewer isn't really relevant. Certainly Spuffy was more impressive, or perhaps more accurately, more noticeable, because a large part of the season's story line was devoted to the various characters' reaction to Spike's soul and how it affected his an Buffy's relationship. Like that or not, it was Joss' plan. But what amounted to the actual "Spuffy" moments didn't take up any more time than the Bangel moments did in earlier seasons, plus there were three years of Bangel, plus several crossovers, and only one season of actual Spuffy.
 
But the original question was only about the amount of screen time devoted to the two relationships. How either affected the individual viewer isn't really relevant. Certainly Spuffy was more impressive, or perhaps more accurately, more noticeable, because a large part of the season's story line was devoted to the various characters' reaction to Spike's soul and how it affected his an Buffy's relationship. Like that or not, it was Joss' plan. But what amounted to the actual "Spuffy" moments didn't take up any more time than the Bangel moments did in earlier seasons, plus there were three years of Bangel, plus several crossovers, and only one season of actual Spuffy.

I think it is entirely relevant. Merely quantifying the amount of screentime Spike got will not reveal why people complain about his presence in S7. Even though Spuffy had less screen time than Bangel did collectively, some people still felt it disrupted their enjoyment of the show and the storylines of key characters, more specifically, the Scoobies' relationships with Buffy. Clearly the amount of screen time the ship got isn't the real issue, it's how that time is used and how it affects the other stories going on around it.
 
Comparing the screen time of season 7 Spike/Buffy and season 3 Buffy/Angel does not make any sense to me. Angel is Buffy's romantic interest in season 3 and Buffy/Angel is a 100% romantic relationship, Spike is not Buffy's romantic interest in season 7 and Buffy/Spike is not a romantic relationship. What these characters have is a friendship, basically Spike is post "The Pack" Xander, rape attempt included, and the problem is that this friendship is prioritized over Buffy's friendship with Willow and Xander and her relationships with Giles and Dawn. When you consider the history of all those characters this is simply ass-backwards.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
[No message]
Back
Top Bottom