Bangel VS Spuffy: The ultimate debate

[randiann]

Here. Now we don't pollute the Bangel love thread.

I'm honestly perplexed as to how people can believe that there is love between Spike and Buffy. It's so not love.

Ok, not going to even debate the Spike hotter than Angel thing, cause really it's gonna be a stalemate there. You might want to go see an eye doctor though. Really, it's for your own good.

1: Buffy turns to Spike because she is emotionally distraught and depressed. Bad relationship decisions because of emotional issues does not equal love. Believe me, I've been there. Ok, you can be right.. but then she did fall in love with him.

Can you please tell me ONE scene, just one, where Buffy conveys any type of sincerely romantic lovey feelings for Spike that doesn't involve Spike burning from the inside while he wears some pretty darn gawdy costume jewelry.

2: Spuffy is purely sexual. Sex does not equal love Well, tell that to Angel, he was the one who lost his soul after doing it with Buffy. It sounds to me like his "pure moment of hapiness" is having sex with Buffy. AND have you seen season 7?

Yes. In fact, I own season seven. I've seen it more than a couple times. Where are Spike and Buffy romantically involved in it?

So are you arguing that Angel being perfectly happy when he was having sex with Buffy means he doesn't love her? Sex is different than making love. Making love is what made Angel perfectly happy.

4: It's not a good idea to date ANYONE who has tried to kill you multiple times before. Angelus tried to kill Buffy.
5: It's also not a great idea to date ANYONE who has stalked you in the past. Angel did that too.

I'm not saying Angelus didn't do these things, but ANGEL did not. It's not 'Bangelus' we're talking about here

6: Spike DID try to rape Buffy. You can't simply put a band-aid on that. See 4 and 5. It's not a good idea Ok, this is true. and i agree with you. But spike didn't have a soul when he did it BUT he felt bad about it...'The arguement before was that Spike was the same (non) person, with or without a soul. By that arguement, Spike with a soul was just as capable of trying to stalk, murder, and rape Buffy. Clearly not good boyfriend material.' Rhh. this is NOT true. When we say that spike was the same with or without a soul, what we mean is that soulless spike loves buffy and that he wouldn't turn into a mass murderer like Angel.

NO. That was not the arguement stated. The arguement was that Spike WAS the same, with or without a soul. The arguement wasn't that soulless Spike loves Buffy just like souled Spike loves Buffy. It was that there was no discernable difference between Spike with a soul and Spike without a soul.

"Who said a little biting was a bad thing??" - urhhh HELLO?? He almost killed her! My god! I think Angel was all "i dont wanna bite you" but then he did it. he could've stopped but he didn't. he kept drinking her blood. how can you say a thing like that??

Obviously you didn't realize that was a slight sexual joke. (I did.. but that doesnt make it less wrong)Given your age, I'm gonna let it slide. (Ok) Obviously I wasn't serious about thinking it's a great idea for Angel (or any other vampire) to drink Buffy's blood. Well, but angel really did it.

Please learn how to take a joke. That was humor I was using there. Don't get so serious about it.

Do you live in such a sheltered world that you have never heard of white lies before?!? SERIOUSLY. People tell the truth. They also lie. (Ok. so she was lying when she told she didn't love him) EVERYONE. Buffy is a television character modeled after a real human being. Not every word that comes out of her mouth can be taken at face value. It's called subtext. (Yeah.. duh.. of course. DId i say the contrary?)

To be exact, you said this

Ok, she admited she didnt love him and she was using spike. And you're saying that she doesnt say things that arent true. So when she said "I love you" that was true. I mean... "Was that just her saying that for the hell of it? I don't think so"

You took what I said purely at face value without putting any sort of meaning behind the words. There were different circumstances between the two scenes in question (when Buffy tells Spike that she doesn't love him in Entropy S6 and the end of Chosen in S7). You are also putting (metaphorical) words in my mouth there and twisting around the point I was making.

And I think Spike would know if Buffy really loved him. Give him at least that little bit of credit if you really love him so much. (Do you live in such a sheltered world that you have never heard of white lies before?!? Immagine spike saying I love you too. Do you think she'd get out of there without him? Maybe he said it to protect her). Or do you think he's so dense he wouldn't notice that she actually loved him? (again, he could be protecting her. AND Do YOU know when people are in love with you? I'm sorry but i do NOT.)

I think Buffy's survival instincts would have kept her from staying down to die with someone in that situation. He's not protecting her. He's admitting that he knows it's a lie. Again I don't doubt that Buffy cares for Spike. But it's not the same as love.

I think you need to review what you have written and how the real world works. (Buffy's is not the real world.)It's quite obvious that what you are saying is what doesn't make sense. (Ok, i'm crazy)Your arguement is full of holes. (Ok. if you say so but.. did you read your post too?)Patch it up and let me know when you have some real evidence that Buffy loved Spike. (SHE SAID "I LOVE YOU" DAMN IT! And where is your evidence that Buffy loves Angel? The things you said were in the past. When she loved him. Where is your evidence that she's still in love with Angel? Patch it up and let me know)

You say it's just a show, but then you get so worked up over this in the same paragraph. Obviously Buffy isn't the real world. But that wasn't what my real world comment was about. It was about how you were arguing that things are so completely black and white that there is no gray allowed. Either Buffy lies or she tells the truth. Everything she says is exactly what she means. The world doesn't work that way, that was the comment I was making. You want evidence that Buffy loves Angel? Watch Buffy, season 1-3. Watch Angel, IWRY. Watch the first scene in CHOSEN (you know, the ep where Buffy says she 'loves' Spike). That's a pretty friendly hello if I recall correctly. Even Joss Whedon has said that Angel is Buffy's true love. You can't argue with him.

3: Angel is willing to give up being HUMAN and being with Buffy(his ultimate dream) in order to protect her (so was spike! and what does this have to do with Buffy loving angel?)

When did Spike ever become human and give that up to protect Buffy? I must have missed that one....

5: There is actual feelings between Angel and Buffy; it's more than just sex (you've said it before. AND spuffy is not just sex. remind me if i'm wrong but we didnt see a single sex scene between buffy and spike in season 7. AND Bangle is not just sex because Bangel CAN'T be (just) sex.)

Again, please show me one scene in season 7 where Buffy and Spike are being affectionate and lovey-dovey towards each other? Doesn't Buffy ponder dating Principal Wood in season 7 in fact?
Of course Bangel is not JUST sex. Bangel supercedes sex. They can love each other without sex.

 

[hannahfngrl26]

Hooray final the ultimate showdown. I am soooooooooooooooooooo excited. And I am super pissed due to my roommate being a d bag so hooray let the fighting begin.

 

[DarkAvenger]

Here. Now we don't pollute the Bangel love thread.

Good idea :thumb:

Ok, not going to even debate the Spike hotter than Angel thing, cause really it's gonna be a stalemate there. You might want to go see an eye doctor though. Really, it's for your own good.

I think you're right. We shouldn't be talking about who is hotter because that has nothing to do with this. lol I don't think i have any problems with my eyes. i still think spike's hotter. 🙂

Can you please tell me ONE scene, just one, where Buffy conveys any type of sincerely romantic lovey feelings for Spike that doesn't involve Spike burning from the inside while he wears some pretty darn gawdy costume jewelry.

Yes. In fact, I own season seven. I've seen it more than a couple times. Where are Spike and Buffy romantically involved in it?

Yes. There were some. i mean, i don't remember every single momment of season 7 but what about the part where Buffy says she's not ready to see him go away (where she's asking spike to stay). Oh, that part in Touched where they spend the night together? and the part after it where Buffy tells spike what that night meant to her? 🙂

So are you arguing that Angel being perfectly happy when he was having sex with Buffy means he doesn't love her? Sex is different than making love. Making love is what made Angel perfectly happy.

No, I am not saying that 🙂 . I can't remember the exact words but you said something like "Sex is not everything. And spuffy is just sex". And then i said that what made angel loosing his soul was just sex. lol

I'm not saying Angelus didn't do these things, but ANGEL did not. It's not 'Bangelus' we're talking about here

Actually, Angel did stalk Buffy.

NO. That was not the arguement stated. The arguement was that Spike WAS the same, with or without a soul. The arguement wasn't that soulless Spike loves Buffy just like souled Spike loves Buffy. It was that there was no discernable difference between Spike with a soul and Spike without a soul.

Ok, maybe you got the wrong idea. What we were trying to say (well, at least me, i don't know about the others) is: If spike lost his soul he wouldn't try to kill her because soulless spike loves Buffy, unlike Angelus. So, if something happened to spike's soul that wouldn't be a BIG BIG problem. But if Angel lost his soul .. well, we all know what would happen!

Please learn how to take a joke. That was humor I was using there. Don't get so serious about it.

Ok, sorry. 🙂

I think Buffy's survival instincts would have kept her from staying down to die with someone in that situation. He's not protecting her. He's admitting that he knows it's a lie. Again I don't doubt that Buffy cares for Spike. But it's not the same as love.

I'm not so sure about this. I think she wouldn't tell spike she loved him if she didn't mean it. AND if I was Buffy and I was in her situation... and right after i say "i love you" he'd say "i love you too" i really don't know what i would do but i wouldn't let him there.. i would break the amulet or something like that and i'd take him with me XD i don't know lol And about spike being lying.. well, you can't be sure and i can't be sure either.. 😉 but i think he was just trying to protect her because he knew she wouldn't go away if he told her the thuth, that he loved her too!

You say it's just a show, but then you get so worked up over this in the same paragraph. Obviously Buffy isn't the real world. But that wasn't what my real world comment was about. It was about how you were arguing that things are so completely black and white that there is no gray allowed. Either Buffy lies or she tells the truth. Everything she says is exactly what she means. The world doesn't work that way, that was the comment I was making. You want evidence that Buffy loves Angel? Watch Buffy, season 1-3. Watch Angel, IWRY. Watch the first scene in CHOSEN (you know, the ep where Buffy says she 'loves' Spike). That's a pretty friendly hello if I recall correctly. Even Joss Whedon has said that Angel is Buffy's true love. You can't argue with him.

I don't want evidences that Buffy loved Angel. I want evidences that Buffy still loves Angel. That part between angel and buffy in Chosen was the ONLY "bangel" scene after a looooong time and it was just a "hello". and right after that buffy tells spike he's her real champion. And Joss's said many things.. "good" things about spuffy and some about bangel.. :/

When did Spike ever become human and give that up to protect Buffy? I must have missed that one....

LOL you're right. i'm sorry. i read it wrong. I thought you were saying that Angel wanted to become human to be with buffy.. Spike wanted to become human (Ats season 5).. that's what i thought you were talking about!! *sorry XD*

Again, please show me one scene in season 7 where Buffy and Spike are being affectionate and lovey-dovey towards each other? Doesn't Buffy ponder dating Principal Wood in season 7 in fact?
Of course Bangel is not JUST sex. Bangel supercedes sex. They can love each other without sex.

lol i don't think she'd ever date P.W. (i mean.. do YOU think that? ??? )

AND speeking of P.W. ... when he tried to kill spike Buffy told him that if he tryed to kill spike again she'd let spike kill him. It looks to me like someone was scared of the idea of loosing her love 😛 and was really mad at P.W. because of that 🙂

 

[white avenger]

what made angel loosing his soul was just












AND speeking of P.W. ... when he tried to kill spike Buffy told him that if he tryed to kill spike again she'd let spike kill him. It looks to me like someone was scared of the idea of loosing her love 😛 and was really mad at P.W. because of that 🙂

I have to disagree here. Buffy was telling Wood that Spike WOULD kill him unless she interfered, and she had no intention of doing so. Spike was never in any sort of danger once he was out from under the First Evil's thumb, least of all from Wood. As a fighter, Wood might have been able to luck out and stake a couple of vamps ONCE, but from then on, he had to constantly be bailed out. As a fighter, Wood wasn't a pimple on Spike's a**. I seriously doubt that he could have even taken out arch criminal mastermind Andrew in a fair fight.

 

[MSchett]

Hold on one second with all the fighting!




LOL!




Ok continue...

 

[T.I.P]

. As a fighter, Wood wasn't a pimple on Spike's a**. I seriously doubt that he could have even taken out arch criminal mastermind Andrew in a fair fight.

I definetly agree Spike is a superior fighter to Wood, but to me Wood was as good as if not better than Gunn at fighting, he looked a very capable fighter.

 

[Aleris]

These two relationships embody two totally different ideas when it comes to love or perceived love (for those who believe that Buffy never really loved Spike).
It doesn't mean that either one was MORE love or STRONGER love than the other.
People are attracted to certain elements of a particular relationship, which is why I have a couple in mind that I would like to happen, but I'm not going to call "OUTRAGE" if it were to never happen that way.

Bangel was about that first love. Mysterious, doesn't always make sense but feels like perfection ... y'know until you realise that it's too hard to keep perfection going and it all falls apart. The relationship you could try to make work forever and a day and there would always be something stopping it from becoming "THE ONE" (*ahem* pesky curse)

Spuffy was more primal kinda like that guy you love against your better judgement. You don't know why but for some reason you're always drawn back to him, time and again. It's a little more destructive (hah! literally) and not necessarily good for you, but it becomes hard to break a habit you don't want to quit.

Both of these relationships, I don't think, in real life, would ever be Buffy's ULTIMATE relationship, without some things drastically changing, not just in them but in her, too.

</2 cents ramble>

Spoiler

If Buffy doesn't want Angel, I'll have him 😉

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Why, why, WHY is this topic not subtitled "The Onion Argument"? Silly Merrickans....

 

[SC7 Fan]

Why, why, WHY is this topic not subtitled "The Onion Argument"? Silly Merrickans....

Yeah! I was wondering that!

 

[randiann]

OK just two things because I have a test in less than thirty minutes and really should attempt to try and finish the book that it's over instead of posting on here....

Yes. There were some. i mean, i don't remember every single momment of season 7 but what about the part where Buffy says she's not ready to see him go away (where she's asking spike to stay). Oh, that part in Touched where they spend the night together? and the part after it where Buffy tells spike what that night meant to her? 🙂

Ok, I'll give you that moment in Touched. I forgot about it. But it's still not like they are dating in S7. I'm gonna argue that one!!!!

lol i don't think she'd ever date P.W. (i mean.. do YOU think that? ??? )

She does go out with him once, and wonders with Willow whether it is or isn't a date. She also talks about how yummy he is or something like that...I'd have to watch the ep again to referesh my memory. It's in "First Date"


Ok I quickly stole some quotes from IMDB from this ep

Xander: Guys, guess what happened.
Willow: Buffy got a date!
Xander: No, I did!
[looks at Buffy]
Xander: Fine, way to steal my thunder.
Buffy: Sorry. If it makes you feel better, it's Principal Wood, and I think he's aligned with the First.
Xander: Also like ten years older than you, right?
Willow: Which is like 100 years younger than your type!
Buffy: Yay. Someone who doesn't remember the industrial revolution.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Principal Robin Wood: Hey, Buffy?
Buffy: Yeah?
Principal Robin Wood: Um, what're you doing tonight?
Buffy: Preparing for tomorrow's counseling sessions.
Principal Robin Wood: No, really.
Buffy: Watching a reality show about a millionaire.
Principal Robin Wood: Well, then, I'd, um, I'd like to take you out to dinner, if that's all right with you. I mean, you don't have to. I'm certainly not saying come to dinner if you enjoy having a job.
[chuckles then stops]
Principal Robin Wood: You know, I may have to make up a little document saying I didn't just say that and have you sign it.
Buffy: Sure. I'd be happy to have dinner with you.
Principal Robin Wood: Great. I'll draw up the paperwork.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buffy: Why do you think he asked me out? I mean, he could be interested, right?
Willow: Yeah, sure. You're a frisky vixen.
Buffy: Or, or it could be work-related. Maybe I'm getting promoted for doing such a good job.
[Willow laughs, then notices Buffy's hurt look and looks apologetic]
Willow: Oh, right, that, that makes sense too.
Buffy: Or maybe he knows that I suspect he's up to something, and he's taking me out to kill me.
Willow: Well, you'll have to dress for the ambiguity.

And one from Spike and Buffy about the date. I think it shows that although she might care enough not to want to hurt Spike's feelings, she wants to move on from that train wreck.

Spike: Heard you got a date.
Buffy: Well, it's unclear. I mean, I have this whole theory about a promotion. Or he's evil.
Spike: Buffy, I'm all right.
Buffy: You don't have to...
Spike: What? Be noble? I'm not. Really, I'm all right. Think I still dream of a crypt for two with a white picket fence? My eyes are clear.
Buffy: Good. I'm glad. Thank you.
Spike: Never much cared for picket fences, anyway. Bloody dangerous.

I'll post more later.

 

[Perny]

Spuffy vs Bangel.. It's always the same... We could go on forever.. We'll never know how it's ending. Buffy loves both! She dreams about both, and both of them has a special place in her heart. I actually don't believe Buffy would be able to choose if she stood in front of Spike and Angel. As much as I am screaming Spuffy inside my head and heart, I think I also sometimes have to look out of my black and pink Spuffy world, and just realize it's never going to be decided...

 

[hannahfngrl26]

When in doubt I always revert back to my Buffy and Angel ride off into the sunrise theory 🙂

 

[Airam]

And one from Spike and Buffy about the date. I think it shows that although she might care enough not to want to hurt Spike's feelings, she wants to move on from that train wreck.

Thats all fine and well but after that conversation in that same episode when Xander is taken by the atrocity of acting that was Ashanti and she, Wood and Spike go to rescue him, at the end of the fight who does Buffy rush over to first to see if he's okay? Nope, not Xander, not Wood her date for the night... her first instinct was to go see if Spike was okay AND she held his hand, looked at him all worried and only took her hand away when she noticed Wood staring. This is the scene as written in the shooting script:

BUFFY goes to Spike. Not looking around first to check on Wood or Xander. Her first priority to check Spike's injuries, make sure he's all right. Spike is doing the same for her... looking into her eyes. It's a brief moment, but very intimate.

Wood clearly recognizes it for what it is -- Buffy and Spike have some kind of attachment. His jaw clenches... disappointed and disgusted.

.... doesn't much seem like moving on to me.

Then at the end of the episode there was this conversation:

SPIKE: Did anybody tell you about what happened around here tonight?
BUFFY: Willow did. The First is back in the mix.
SPIKE: It, uh, it talked to the little boy. Said it wasn't time for me yet. I should move out. Leave town before it is time for me.
BUFFY: No, you have to stay.
SPIKE: You've got another demon fighter now.
BUFFY: That's not why I need you here.
SPIKE: Is that right? Why's that then?
BUFFY: 'Cause I'm not ready for you to not be here.
SPIKE: (looks at her a moment) And the Principal? How's he fit in? (Buffy looks at him a moment, then Spike looks away)

Spike was ready to go, ready to give her space, not to mention dissapear for all their safety and SHE told him to stay, SHE told him she needed HIM. And she told him the reason she needed him had nothing to do with his ability to help in the fight. So I ask, for what other reason could she possibly need him? I think I know.... 🙂

 

[Tranquillity]

And one from Spike and Buffy about the date. I think it shows that although she might care enough not to want to hurt Spike's feelings, she wants to move on from that train wreck.

Ahhh, but also from the shooting script:

SPIKE
What? Be noble? I'm not. I really
am all right. You think I still
dream of a crypt for two with a white
picket fence? My eyes are clear.

BUFFY
(tiny bit
disappointed)
Good. I'm glad. Thank you.

 

[Schillaci]

Spuffy is better than Bangel.

That is all I have to say on the matter, and if yi want to dispute that fact, you will have to deal with my eigtheen month year old neice(who is awesome), who will clench her fists and 'teeth' if she thinks you are diagreeing with her awesome uncle..

Then she'll slap you. ALl I have to say is, go team Sophia.

I may return to this topic with some scriptual(no, not the bible you scary scary people), evidence from the show, to explain how SPuffy is teh best, and bangel is sadly lacking.

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

Um...Ruffy is better than all. and i know im in the minority and about to stir up major crap by saying it but its what i think.

but if i had to pick between the two on topic, Bangel. its the romeo and juliet of the new age. can't beat that.

 

[T.I.P]

Um...Ruffy is better than all. and i know im in the minority and about to stir up major crap by saying it but its what i think.

Ruffy, y'know. i actually totally agree, for so many reasons that was the best.

 

[MSchett]

The best was totally Scuffy(Scott Hope and Buffy) or Puffy (Parker and Buffy)

I'm going with Puffy because who could resist such and awesome combination!!!! Puffy! Puffy! Puffy! Just rolls off the tongue! Spuffy is like Puffy with a lisp and Bangel just sounds terrible!

And yes I just decided who was best for Buffy by name combos...

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

*laughs* Spuffy definitely. Bangel was too much of a teen romance and first love thing for me.

 

[luckystar]

bangel for me i loved every moment and seeing i will remember you just refreshed it all for me, angels buffys true love in my eyes and i never liked spuffy simply because buffy was going thru so much at the time so much darkness and she went to spike for all the wrong reasons, i do believe he genuninly loved her though he was souless and yet he fell for her so its real, however spuffy together is bad in my eyes and i doubt buffy was in love with him