Bangel vs. Spuffy

[StarSlayer]

I think perhaps it's simply one of those subjective things, you know like thinking Buffy was a bitch in Season 7.

I'm sure some of it is subjective, since I don't think Buffy was bitch in s7 and I know some people do 🙂

For one thing there is happiness here. Angel also said, a PART of him doesn't care. We all have selfish sides and desires to give in to such temptations.

I get that a part of Angel said he doesn't care, and wants to give into temptations (Buffy certainly did that with Spike). As I've said, I find it selfish on Angel's part in this episode because it's not the first time we've seen weak and vulnerable. Sure, he came back from hell after being tortured but he wasn't abandoned. Buffy came to see him as often as she could. She cared for him, gave him blood, talked with him...and he still wants it all to end? We may just have to agree to disagree here 🙂

It's not true love? I'm not sure how I feel about true love in and of itself. I'm not being cynical but I really believe you cannot seperate the love from the lover. There can be no perfection in love because there is no perfect person. Being weak at anyone time does not mean the love you feel isn't real.

I don't deny Buffy and Angel felt something for each other in this episode. Yet, even in cases of true love, people have to work at relationships. Among many things, it can mean sacrificing your happiness for the other's happiness. If they are willing to do that, then in my eyes, it really is true love. I feel like Angel wasn't willing to do that in this episode, especially when he said he didn't care. You can call it weak, you can call it being vulnerable...but I still think it was ultimately selfish.

I think Angel had the potential to be a champion but IMO, Champions aren't born, they're made. He always a work in progress which is why I like him so much and love that his journey isn't linear or even always progressive. It's messy, up and down, but God, you know, he's not a bad soul.

It just seems you're being hard on him when there are far worse things people do.

Maybe my expectations are higher for Angel, lol, considering everything Buffy has already done for him up until that point. And I love Angel as a character, seriously I do. 🙂 I love his story of redemption (probably more so in AtS) and I love his journey to become a champion. He's said some of my favorite quotes in the Buffyverse (again, more so in AtS). I honestly don't hate him. He just gets me mad in the episode, which makes me hate "Amends."

For example in Orpheus if someone said, "Wouldn't it be better if he had a soul without the curse?" and have the dialogue run from there.

For some reason, I can see Fred saying that and Willow then having an "ah-ha" moment, lol! 😀

Yep! All this said, I really, really, really want Angel and Buffy to move on from Bangel now though. It's like when Joey from Friends says "Man get over it, it's been four years" lol. I mean canon-wise it's been longer hasn't it?

LOL, yay for "Friends" references!!! 😀 And yes. Canon-wise, it has gone on for far too long. That could be the Spuffie in me talking too 😀

 

[prophecygrrl]

LOL, yay for "Friends" references!!! And yes. Canon-wise, it has gone on for far too long. That could be the Spuffie in me talking too

Hehe. I hope this isn't the Spuffy/Cangel in me talking here, but I think anyone who isn't a dedicated Bangel is inclined to agree that Bangel's gone on far too long.

They are radically different people by the end of their respective series. By Season Five of ATS, they don't even have the same mission anymore. And for each of them, the mission defines them. They really just don't fit together. Angel no longer her whole world and she's certainly not a teenager these days, and the same goes for Angel. He doesn't need her anymore the same way he did when he was still trying to be good (if you take it that he didn't start fighting against evil until Whistler took him to see Buffy in LA). He's moved on. He's known a different kind of happiness with having Connor as a son. A different kind of kinship with having Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, and Cordelia around as his best friends. (The Scoobies, as I recall, never *quite* accepted Angel as one of them.) And sure, Buffy's still the girl who uses cookie dough analogies, but she at least has the maturity to recognize that she's 'cookie dough'. They're not the same people. I don't see how Bangel, with all its forevers and Claddagh rings and 'THIS IS EPIC LOVE' flashing neon signs, can resume again with the same intensity. At best, I see friendship. But not 'true love', or whatever that is anyway.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Hehe. I hope this isn't the Spuffy/Cangel in me talking here, but I think anyone who isn't a dedicated Bangel is inclined to agree that Bangel's gone on far too long.

They are radically different people by the end of their respective series. By Season Five of ATS, they don't even have the same mission anymore. And for each of them, the mission defines them. They really just don't fit together. Angel no longer her whole world and she's certainly not a teenager these days, and the same goes for Angel. He doesn't need her anymore the same way he did when he was still trying to be good (if you take it that he didn't start fighting against evil until Whistler took him to see Buffy in LA). He's moved on. He's known a different kind of happiness with having Connor as a son. A different kind of kinship with having Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, and Cordelia around as his best friends. (The Scoobies, as I recall, never *quite* accepted Angel as one of them.) And sure, Buffy's still the girl who uses cookie dough analogies, but she at least has the maturity to recognize that she's 'cookie dough'. They're not the same people. I don't see how Bangel, with all its forevers and Claddagh rings and 'THIS IS EPIC LOVE' flashing neon signs, can resume again with the same intensity. At best, I see friendship. But not 'true love', or whatever that is anyway.

See, this is why I don't get people who don't like Bangel..

One minute you're "Oh, they need to grow up, they need to experience things, and then, maybe, they can be together." and then the other minute you're "I don't see how they could ever be together." Make up your mind already.

Yes, they're not the same people they were before. That's kinda the point. They changed. People have a tendency to do that with years. And if they love is "EPIC", how you would desribe it, then if they get together again after all this time it's the proof that it really is epic.

 

[StarSlayer]

One minute you're "Oh, they need to grow up, they need to experience things, and then, maybe, they can be together." and then the other minute you're "I don't see how they could ever be together." Make up your mind already.

Lol, I'm sure it sounds like that sometimes. 🙂 When I started not to like them anymore, it really wasn't because I felt they needed to grow up and experience things. It was that when they were together (especially in s3), they didn't balance each other out. I didn't see them bringing out the best in each other. So, I'm more of the latter in that I don't see them as a forever love.

Yes, they're not the same people they were before. That's kinda the point. They changed. People have a tendency to do that with years. And if they love is "EPIC", how you would desribe it, then if they get together again after all this time it's the proof that it really is epic.

Yet, Buffy wasn't feeling that anymore in "Chosen." When she looked into the future, she didn't see Angel. She didn't see anyone, which was the point at this stage in her life. "Forever" suddenly turned to "sometimes." Plus, I don't even think she was necessarily referring to a future with Angel when she said she sometimes thought of a future. She simply said, "I do sometimes think that far ahead," not "And I see you in it." I think she was referring to herself more so than Angel. That's how I see it, but I know you'll probably disagree with me, which is fine 🙂

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Lol, I'm sure it sounds like that sometimes. 🙂 When I started not to like them anymore, it really wasn't because I felt they needed to grow up and experience things. It was that when they were together (especially in s3), they didn't balance each other out. I didn't see them bringing out the best in each other. So, I'm more of the latter in that I don't see them as a forever love.



Yet, Buffy wasn't feeling that anymore in "Chosen." When she looked into the future, she didn't see Angel. She didn't see anyone, which was the point at this stage in her life. "Forever" suddenly turned to "sometimes." Plus, I don't even think she was necessarily referring to a future with Angel when she said she sometimes thought of a future. She simply said, "I do sometimes think that far ahead," not "And I see you in it." I think she was referring to herself more so than Angel. That's how I see it, but I know you'll probably disagree with me, which is fine 🙂

Actually, I won't. I'm happy she finally realised she doesn't need a man in her life, and that she comes first. She needs to spend some time alone.. with herself. Firstly, I'm Buffy fan.. the else comes in second place.

Maybe I'll disagree with you on the view of Buffy's words.. I actually concluded that she meant she can see herself with Angel in the future.. but that's all I mean.. she can see herself, he's an option.. but she doesn't, and that makes him only an option among the others..

 

[StarSlayer]

Actually, I won't. I'm happy she finally realised she doesn't need a man in her life, and that she comes first. She needs to spend some time alone.. with herself. Firstly, I'm Buffy fan.. the else comes in second place.

Oh, nice, lol! I'm a Buffy fan first and foremost too 😀

Maybe I'll disagree with you on the view of Buffy's words.. I actually concluded that she meant she can see herself with Angel in the future.. but that's all I mean.. she can see herself, he's an option.. but she doesn't, and that makes him only an option among the others..

I guess I can see that too...in that Angel is an option among others. Yet, she wasn't thinking that far ahead with who could enjoy warm, delicious cookie Buffy, lol! Angel asked her who she wanted after she was done baking, but she really didn't have an answer. She had to focus on herself first. Even when she told him she sometimes thought that far ahead, it didn't sound convincing (at least to me) that she considered being with Angel or thought about a future specifically with him.

 

[zobothehobo]

See, this is why I don't get people who don't like Bangel..

One minute you're "Oh, they need to grow up, they need to experience things, and then, maybe, they can be together." and then the other minute you're "I don't see how they could ever be together." Make up your mind already.

Yes, they're not the same people they were before. That's kinda the point. They changed. People have a tendency to do that with years. And if they love is "EPIC", how you would desribe it, then if they get together again after all this time it's the proof that it really is epic.

I think if they grew into different people, they could be together. Like I think they needed to grow, but they could grow away from each other (like they did) or towards each other. I don't think with the people they ended as at the finales of each of their respective shows they could be together. It's not the fact that they grew up... it's how they grew up.

If their love is as "EPIC" as you Bangels like to say, they would have grown towards each other, not away. (no I did not mean to rhyme).

That's what I love so much about Spuffy. They did grow towards each other. That makes the Spuffy bond and love EPIC by my standards.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I think if they grew into different people, they could be together. Like I think they needed to grow, but they could grow away from each other (like they did) or towards each other. I don't think with the people they ended as at the finales of each of their respective shows they could be together. It's not the fact that they grew up... it's how they grew up.

If their love is as "EPIC" as you Bangels like to say, they would have grown towards each other, not away. (no I did not mean to rhyme).

That's what I love so much about Spuffy. They did grow towards each other. That makes the Spuffy bond and love EPIC by my standards.

We have different view on "EPIC" love. I even don't think epic is suitable word for love.. not only Bangel, but for any kind of love.

Buffy and Angel were still kids. No matter how old Angel truly was, or how mature Buffy was at her age, when we're talking about love, they we're kids. Selfish kids. Don't get me wrong, I love them, and time they've spend together.. but before Buffy realized Angel is not the only thing worth fighting for, they're love was like you Spuffies like to call it "high school love", term which I'm never gonna use in my life when talking about them. Buffy and Angel had to grew apart, so one day, they can get back together as one.. just as stronger and more mature people..

 

[zobothehobo]

We have different view on "EPIC" love. I even don't think epic is suitable word for love.. not only Bangel, but for any kind of love.

Buffy and Angel were still kids. No matter how old Angel truly was, or how mature Buffy was at her age, when we're talking about love, they we're kids. Selfish kids. Don't get me wrong, I love them, and time they've spend together.. but before Buffy realized Angel is not the only thing worth fighting for, they're love was like you Spuffies like to call it "high school love", term which I'm never gonna use in my life when talking about them. Buffy and Angel had to grew apart, so one day, they can get back together as one.. just as stronger and more mature people..

But they're not suited for each other anymore. And Buffy finding other things to fight for than Angel doesn't necessarily mean growing away. She could find herself and establish herself without growing away from him.

 

[The Unspoken]

For shipping purposes, 'Chosen' should be taken with a big-ass grain of salt. The writers didn't want a conclusive answer to who Buffy belongs to, in case they wanted to develop a spin-off show, a movie or, as it turns out, a comic further down the road. This is also why Faith got so much screen time in relatively little time, including the 'chem testing' with Spike.

Anyway....SPUFFY 4 LIFE!!!!111

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

But they're not suited for each other anymore. And Buffy finding other things to fight for than Angel doesn't necessarily mean growing away. She could find herself and establish herself without growing away from him.

Say's who they're not suitable anymore? I haven't seen or heard such a thing anywhere.

No, it doesn't. But in their case it does. Every love is different. Every story is different. Only because you don't see why they needed to grow apart to fall back together doesn't mean it's not true. Only because I don't see love between Spike and Buffy, it doesn't mean it's not there.. I just don't see it. Sure, they could go on living happy life till the end of season 7, save the world once again.. but where's the fun in that. Where's the beauty in that? Where's the beauty in love when it runs for 7 seasons on tv, with on complications, just whining and no new story line? Could you learn something from that experience?

It's better this way, when they meet as new people, and fall in love once again (like they ever fell out of it), we'll know it's true.. if not, we'll know it was true.

 

[prophecygrrl]

See, this is why I don't get people who don't like Bangel..

One minute you're "Oh, they need to grow up, they need to experience things, and then, maybe, they can be together." and then the other minute you're "I don't see how they could ever be together." Make up your mind already.

Yes, they're not the same people they were before. That's kinda the point. They changed. People have a tendency to do that with years. And if they love is "EPIC", how you would desribe it, then if they get together again after all this time it's the proof that it really is epic.

LOL, I don't think we'll ever "get" each other. xD

I've seen the argument that their love is 'immature' before (and sometimes I agree). That doesn't necessarily mean that once they DO mature, they'll be perfect together. Growing up is not the same as growing together. And if you've seen people who do argue that once they mature they'll be perfect together, remember that all of us non-Bangels are not the same. There's a lot of variation in our beliefs.

And yes, I have made up my mind. And it's screaming, "SPUFFYYY", hehe.

They're totally not the same people they were before. I'm glad we agree on that. But as it happened in canon, they don't know each other and haven't tried to get to know each other since. There's no evidence to suggest that they CAN move forward, but with everything that's happened in their lives, there's a lot of evidence that says they can't. Like I said, they've both had huge things happen in their lives. Angel showing up to Sunnydale for all of ten minutes and Buffy making her cookie dough speech doesn't negate all of that. Ugh, I won't even get into how his showing up at the point was ridiculously OOC.

But if you really believe that they can get to know each other all over again, as Joss once said (I'm loath to use a Joss quote because I'm not a huge fan of the man himself these days, damn you, Season Eight! 😡), there's a time and place for everything, and it's called 'fan fiction'.

Also, I'd like to add that I never agreed that it WAS epic. I only meant that it was supposed to come off that way. I just don't buy it.

 

[ashsummers]

Interesting. I've always found SPUFFY to be the passion 'ship, where as Bangel was the romantic first love

I definitely agree with you there. But I really question whether Spike loved Buffy unconditionally. I think his was more obsessive love than genuine love. I think for sure he believed he loved her. But i don't know if he ever really saw her for what she was or what she needed. That's why he couldn't really give her the space she needed like Angel could.

Buffy from the beginning was an obsession for Spike, someone to be tamed, dominated like the slayers before her. But Buffy was different than the others and so he fell for her. His identity became embroiled with her, hence Dru leaving him. She became the replacement mother figure in his life, in the sense he could forever replay his history of love and rejection with.

He wanted to posess her and yes theres a certain romance to that but for me that's not real love. But then again love is a lucid term.

I think if he really loved her he would have respected her wishes and not taken advantage of her fragility which is none so poignant than when he attempts to rape her.

Angel's love for Buffy comes from a much deeper place of respect than Spikes. After years of self hatred Buffy made Angel wanna be a better man . I know you could say the same for Spike but Angel didn't need Buffy to validate his own existence the way Spike did. Spike needed Buffy, wanted her, Angel loved her and wanted what was best for her and I think Buffy recognised the difference. And I would expect nothing less of our heroine 😉

Having said all that I certainly enjoy Spuffy and their passion is explosive. I don't see it as real love or rather I don't see it fitting my definition of real love and I think that maybe where we all part ways. On definition? but hey not everyone wants that kind of love and each to their own yknow?

 

[StarSlayer]

I definitely agree with you there. But I really question whether Spike loved Buffy unconditionally. I think his was more obsessive love than genuine love. I think for sure he believed he loved her. But i don't know if he ever really saw her for what she was or what she needed. That's why he couldn't really give her the space she needed like Angel could.

Spike's love for Buffy definitely started out as an obsession. Yet, "Intervention," was the turning point. He felt guilty over the BuffyBot (which is why he could never look at it the same way after the episode, as seen in s6), and started to learn what love really is, when Buffy said what he did for her and Dawn was real. In s7, when Spike told Buffy he was going to leave, she said no. She not only needed him, but wanted him to stay. And Spike's going to say no, at a time when Buffy is facing her toughest battle yet? I don't think so 🙂

He wanted to posess her and yes theres a certain romance to that but for me that's not real love. But then again love is a lucid term.

Yes, in the beginning, Spike thought that being in love with someone meant possessing them. Look at his past relationships. His first was with Dru. He felt that she was his and his alone. He was always jealous when Angelus was with her because it was like Angelus took something that he felt belonged to him. His next relationship was with Harmony, who he completely used and possessed. So, when he fell in love with Buffy, that was the only way he knew how to express his feelings. If he could possess her, then maybe she would love him back. Yet, as I mentioned, "Intervention," was essentially Spike's intervention about what real love actually is.

I think if he really loved her he would have respected her wishes and not taken advantage of her fragility which is none so poignant than when he attempts to rape her.

I've discussed my thoughts on this already in this thread so I won't repeat it here 🙂

Spike needed Buffy, wanted her, Angel loved her and wanted what was best for her and I think Buffy recognised the difference. And I would expect nothing less of our heroine 😉

But, that's not what Spike said in "Touched." He said, "When I say 'I love you,' it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are..." Now, of course, if you romantically love someone, you're going to want them. There is no denying that. But, in "Touched," we saw that Spike's love for Buffy was much more than simply needing and wanting her.

Having said all that I certainly enjoy Spuffy and their passion is explosive. I don't see it as real love or rather I don't see it fitting my definition of real love and I think that maybe where we all part ways. On definition? but hey not everyone wants that kind of love and each to their own yknow?

That's fine and I respect your opinions, even though I disagree 🙂

 

[prophecygrrl]

Yet, as I mentioned, "Intervention," was essentially Spike's intervention about what real love actually is.

Oooh, I like this thought. A lot. 😀 Very, very interesting, especially when you see the parallels with Buffy's own intervention on love and being the Slayer in that episode.

 

[ashsummers]

But, that's not what Spike said in "Touched." He said, "When I say 'I love you,' it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are..." Now, of course, if you romantically love someone, you're going to want them. There is no denying that. But, in "Touched," we saw that Spike's love for Buffy was much more than simply needing and wanting her.

No that's a fair point, but to me it always seemed Spike was trying to convince himself here as much as Buffy and I'm still not sure I buy it. Having said that I haven't watched the seventh series in a while so new perspectives could be formed upon a re-watch.

The problem is Spike is only one side of the coin. Lets presume Spike does love Buffy for who she is, I just don't know if Buffy could ever love Spike the same in return.

I'm assuming you Spuffy fans think she could? I'm interested to know why that is.

That's fine and I respect your opinions,

🙂

even though i disagree

The world would be a duller place if you didn't

 

[zobothehobo]

No that's a fair point, but to me it always seemed Spike was trying to convince himself here as much as Buffy and I'm still not sure I buy it. Having said that I haven't watched the seventh series in a while so new perspectives could be formed upon a re-watch.

The problem is Spike is only one side of the coin. Lets presume Spike does love Buffy for who she is, I just don't know if Buffy could ever love Spike the same in return.

I'm assuming you Spuffy fans think she could? I'm interested to know why that is.
🙂

The world would be a duller place if you didn't

I am one of those who believe she did love Spike in return in Chosen. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 🙂

 

[StarSlayer]

The problem is Spike is only one side of the coin. Lets presume Spike does love Buffy for who she is, I just don't know if Buffy could ever love Spike the same in return.

I'm assuming you Spuffy fans think she could? I'm interested to know why that is.
🙂

I don't believe Buffy could love Spike. I believe Buffy did love Spike 😀 I believe she was falling in love with him in s6, and that freaked her out. "Don't think about the evil bloodsucking fiend. Focus on anything but the evil bloodsucking fiend." In s7, her actions constantly showed that she loved Spike. And everyone around her knew there was something between them. The potentials saw it in "Potential," Giles said they rely on each other and that there's a connection, and Wood noticed something between them in "First Date." The night she slept in Spike's arms ("Touched") also meant something to her, and she told Spike that. She also wanted to be with Spike over Angel, when he came back to town, and she even said to Angel that Spike was in her heart. Buffy then finally admitted her feelings in "Chosen," when both she and Spike felt that connection between them when the fire burst. 🙂 As Joss said, Buffy was in love with Spike the moment their hands clasped 🙂

 

[Flannen]

Will this one EVER end? 😛

Closing this one gang as we've gone waaay over the limit. As always, please feel free to continue with a fresh thread 🙂