Bangelfolk: How Would You Have Improved S7 Spuffy?

[Taake]

On a less serious and strictly shallow note, I wish they would’ve kept his ”crazy” hair throughout the season. Look how cute he is with it!


It reminds me of his soft William locks.

But THE biggest thing is that they'd have to show Spike changed. He didn't really change much, from his brooding, obsessions, and general dickishness (though no longer at sociopath levels that it was before). For example, at the end of Lies My Parents Told Me, Buffy could still chew out Wood, but then Spike says he understands, and adds that he loved his Mum, too. He then hands Wood his mother's jacket. Wood is shocked, confused, even furious (at both Spike and at himself in sudden guilt realizing this is not the same man who killed his mother), while Buffy is literally STUNNED speechless. In this revision, Spike shows more understanding and sympathy to Wood than Buffy herself did, and Spike might even chide Buffy about how the mission matters because of the people we loved, be they those we lost or those we haven't lost yet.

And then in later episodes she'd bring this up with him and others which causes her to finally and truly reevaluate and sympathize with him (this time I'd understand), and it could lead to how explained that he got the soul for her, but now he realized that to truly love her would be to respect her...otherwise he'd be making the same mistake he made with his Mum. He might even say he should burn for what he's done, and the only reason he hasn't is because he knows he's needed...he did enough damage to the world, might as well do something to make up for it, probably become dust anyway (Buffy can react as she did to Angel when he was suicidal, etc).

I love this. His treatment of Wood is a big problem for me, especially considering his own relationship to his mom.

 

[thetopher]

I don’t think I could have shipped Spuffy, tbh. Even if Spike was great, I just can’t see Buffy choosing Spike and loving him more than Angel.

I don't think its a question of either/or, some shippers on both sides try to turn into it (because the show does) but nobody says 'oh, Buffy moved on with Riley and cared for him so she no longer loved Angel'.
I know that Spuffy is deliberately kept ambivalent- at least on Buffy's side- but her being in a relationship or loving Spike wouldn't necessarily diminish what she had/has with Angel. But then I'm not really a shipper.

So to sum up, more little moments that aren't part of some grand plot but rather pivotal for character growth and connection, and on top of that, more Spike character growth via interactions with other characters (Andrew doesn't count, he's comic relief) and less through plot devices.

Oh I agree so much with this; deeply linking Spike to the Big Bad plot for most of the season was an idiotic decision. The whole trigger plot makes Buffy look reckless and callous.
More reckless and callous than all the other stuff that shows that.😛

I too would've preferred The First trying to target Spike and Buffy realizing this and trying to prevent it, instead of her ignoring that The First already has/was using Spike.
Then the writers could've devoting more time to slowly building trust between them instead of 'I need him, he's part of the evil plan!!'

I think my least favorite aspect of Spuffy isn't the relationship itself but how it isolates both Buffy and Spike from the other characters.

I agree. I hate that after a whole season where Buffy was isolated from her friends and relying on Spike we got...another season of Buffy slowly pulling away from her friends and relying on Spike on to an even GREATER EXTENT.
In a show that was about nostalgia and about the Scoobies coming back together this contrivance was shameful. Buffy is made to look awful, the Scoobies are made the bad guys, all in the service of Spike who can now ride to the rescue?
Urgh, hate it, hate it, hate it.

A minor comment from a Spuffy lover: I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that a lot of people that don't ship Spuffy have a bigger issue with S6 than with S7.

It's about 50/50, obviously any relationship post-violent sexual assault is gonna be problematic no matter how its written. For me at least I can understand the purpose of S6 Spuffy. I might not like it but it doesn't feel not contrived. It knows what it is; toxic and harmful. The whole season is full of bad choices by everyone.

I needed to see a difference between souled and unsouled Spike, and I don’t think we got that (was that a failure on the writing of souled or unsouled Spike?) If Buffy didn’t say “He has a soul now” regularly I probably would have forgotten.

Yeah, there have been many complaints about Spike; its probably because his look and character had become too iconic. But its lazy writing.

Fans love Angelus and Angel (two different characters) and how many episodes did Angelus get? 10 or so? And then we got other fan favorites like Doyle and Illyria who are fleshed out in 9 episodes whilst all sorts of other stuff is going on.

The writers had a full season to develop Spike 2.0 with a soul who could have shades of his old self but maybe be different? I mean, somewhat different like Darla perhaps?
Instead they had Spike reconstruct himself because Buffy didn't care to get to know William. Hardly lends me to invest in their romance.

I would have been more open to it had the AR been truly adressed. I feel like Buffy wasn’t allowed to be upset at Spike. The one time she expressed any sort of resentment over it, Spike got to have the last word and that really infuriated me.

I would've liked at least one episode where Buffy gets to angrily confront Spike about what happened to HER. I want him to stand there and listen as she explains (and tells the audience) how SHE coped after what he tried to do. How she worried about him coming back to try again. How she had nightmares or whatever other trauma she suffered.
She needed the catharsis (which she never got) and the viewer deserves to know how the heroine manged. Instead they glossed over what we never got to see anything.

Spike on the other hand....we are treated to yet another scene or two of soul-reveals and Buffy asking him where/how he got a soul (so he can dramatically explain, again, what he did for her) and in return he doesn't even bother to ask how she coped?
So...we the viewer never get to know.

I personally wouldn't have mind if Buffy had staked one of her vampire boyfriends in a I'm fine my own kind of way.

Not a very satisfying end to Spike's arc though. I actually like Spike's death in S7 more than any other thing he does in the season. It's his 'selfless act' that complete his 'I did it for the girl' arc.


For me you either do one of two things; delineate between the two characters, like what eventually happened with Angel, but then you can't have I got a soul for you....
*sigh* okay, if you wanna keep him taking credit for soullless actions then you have to better address the bad/evil ones that he did to Buffy.

- Buffy should never, ever have to apologize to Spike. She can have her heart-to-heart with Holden the vamp but she shouldn't give Spike anything.For example tells her in 'Never Leave Me' 'you used me' and she should immediately say 'and you tried to rape me, and yet here we are'. If he's gonna thrown things in her face she should do the same.

- Remove Spike from the Big Bad plot. Do not force Buffy, by contrivance, to bring back Spike into her life. Have him targeted by the First a bit later on, have Buffy proactively prevent this (she's so passive for much of S7, simply reacting to things...) and then she chooses to let him come and make himself useful. Have Spike slowly become stronger and prove his worth instead of being such a woobie that needs to be coddled.

- Keep the soul reveal- but move it to episode 3 or 4. Have Spike pop up in Episode 2 just like he does and instead have Buffy barely restrain herself from killing him. She shows him the door after saying that he never should have come back to Sunnydale after what he did/tried to do to her. Rightly mortified Spike leaves. Then we have Willow's return in episode 3 (where Spike can see her and maybe be a bit more helpful) and then in 4 shadow-y forces are targeting Spike, etc. Basically I think its important that Buffy- our heroine- gets some catharsis against her attacker.

- Stop having Spike wear 'costumes' to get Buffy's approval. He tries in 'Beneath You' and fails...and then he does it later on with the murder-coat and succeeds? Okay then. Kinda lame.
Why not have him slowly become his own man over the season; starting off doing whatever Buffy says but then slowly making his own choices culminating in his moving sacrifice.

- Have Spike at least try to interact with other characters- by which I mean any of the Scoobies; he barely even tries. In fact he often seems bothered by their presence. Wouldn't he be grateful of Andrew's attention instead of finding him irritable like everyone else does? Maybe he could have a heartfelt confession with Xander about his soul quest and explain how he now realizes the hollowness of it. Yet not all of his confessions be to Buffy, why should she have to carry them?

- I know he's a passionate character but we should tone down the 'I hit people instead of work through my emotions' kinda deal. He's supposed to be a little less prone to violence and yet he's threatening people and punching Anya, Xander and Faith.

- Do not have Spike proclaim over and over again 'I love you'/'I got a soul for you'. It's obnoxious. Each time he says it it lessens and cheapens the whole thing because it becomes clear Spike is demanding credit and forgiveness for something that Buffy never even asked him to do. Have him say it once whilst mad, once to somebody else in a moment of melancholy (perhaps to Xander whilst he staying at his place) and then have his 'Touched' speech when it would've mattered more/being impactful.

I think all of these would've made me root for Spike more and given Buffy more say in how their relationship develops. I want to 'hear her voice' more and we really don't at all, not after...'Him' and her talk with Dawn. So, 6 eps then nothing.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

OP seems to be written in such a way that is asking me if there is any way that Spuffy could have been written in s7 so that I could have conceivably shipped it. The answer to this question is simply, no. The reasons are mostly related to the fact that I just don't really like Spike (outside of evil or comedic relief side-kick) and so find it hard to ship him with my favorite character - Buffy - who I really really like. The second reason is I just cannot get passed the AR. It's a roadblock for me that I, personally, cannot see past.

That being said, I do see scenarios in a post s6 spuffy would have been more tolerable to me. I don't know that it could have been accomplished in the span of one season though because in order for me to be OK with Buffy being with Spike again after the s6 abuse/and the AR I would've needed to see:

- Distance between Spike and Buffy. Serious distance. Time and space away from each other and maybe storylines away from each other. I would've liked to see Spike's character develop in the ats s5/After the Fall kinda way.
- Spike does not ask for a soul, he asks for his chip to be removed and gets a soul. The reason this is important to me is because Spike getting a soul after the AR is directly related to the things he did to Buffy, his getting a soul FOR Buffy (while to some is a grand romantic gesture) to me just comes across as a guy going out and doing this GRAND thing for her when she never asked him to and now the story inherently becomes about whether she will finally love him because of said GRAND gesture. It's just not my cuppa. If Spike had gone out to get his chip out or had stumbled across his soul accidentally, then he comes back to Buffy I can stomach a relationship because Buffy doesn't then feel indebted to him for said ensouling. I realize that this is the cornerstone of what many love about Spuffy. But it is also what makes this relationship so difficult for me to enjoy.
- After maybe years of time apart, I would've wanted to see Buffy actively pursuing and interested in a relationship rather than saddled with the obligation to take care of him, protect him, defend him, apologize to him, etc. Let her be excited about a relationship. Let her take an active approach in wanting to pursue something with him without feeling conflicted, or guilty or confused. I want to SEE the physical evidence of her desire to be with him. Instead in s7 I just get alot of confused/sad faces. Because I look at things from Buffy's perspective I want her to get what she wants. And if I don't really get any indication that she really wants something, I'm really not into it.

Basically, it comes down to being about Buffy. If she was actively excited to be with Spike, if her reasons for being with him were not related to any reason of guilt or obligation or isolation then I would probably be much more tolerant of it because I would have seen it was what she really wanted (which is why spuffy in the comics is slightly more tolerable if a little boring). When the story is about what Spike wants/earned/deserved, I just don't really care.

 

[one eyed chicklet]

- Spike does not ask for a soul, he asks for his chip to be removed and gets a soul. The reason this is important to me is because Spike getting a soul after the AR is directly related to the things he did to Buffy, his getting a soul FOR Buffy (while to some is a grand romantic gesture) to me just comes across as a guy going out and doing this GRAND thing for her when she never asked him to and now the story inherently becomes about whether she will finally love him because of said GRAND gesture. It's just not my cuppa. If Spike had gone out to get his chip out or had stumbled across his soul accidentally, then he comes back to Buffy I can stomach a relationship because Buffy doesn't then feel indebted to him for said ensouling. I realize that this is the cornerstone of what many love about Spuffy.

My problem isn't even that he asks for a soul, it's that he keeps saying it's for her like it's a present and it just makes me cringe inside. Honestly, if he just said that he got his soul because of her it makes his soul seem like less of a gift and that she made him want to get a soul for himself so he could be the man that she treated him like he was (like how she treated him in season 5 and early season 6).

 

[DeadlyDuo]

My problem isn't even that he asks for a soul, it's that he keeps saying it's for her like it's a present and it just makes me cringe inside. Honestly, if he just said that he got his soul because of her it makes his soul seem like less of a gift and that she made him want to get a soul for himself so he could be the man that she treated him like he was (like how she treated him in season 5 and early season 6).

I find Spike getting a soul to be problematic because of how it is either an act of self harm or suicide (depending on whether or not you consider souled Spike to be the same person as unsouled Spike or someone completely different) which is then rewarded and treated as a romantic gesture that he did so he would be "acceptable" to Buffy. We were blatantly told in regards to Angel that the soul was a PUNISHMENT to make him SUFFER, it's why the gypsies did it, they wanted vengeance not to make him a "good man". Angel made the best out of a bad situation. The Angel soul canon and the Spike soul canon are not compatible, it's either one or the other, it can't be both.

Buffy should either love Spike soulless (she shouldn't) or not at all. He shouldn't have to "earn" her love by hurting himself just so she finds him "acceptable" to be with. It's a terrible message.

Also the AR was just a terrible choice of scene to use. Also it's a bit of fridge horror. Everyone talks about how terrible that scene is because Spike (a man) is trying to forcibly have sex with Buffy (a woman) yet Noxon (a woman) openly admits it's based on an experience where she tried to forcibly have sex with an ex-boyfriend (a man) and nobody bats an eyelid.

 

[thetopher]

We were blatantly told in regards to Angel that the soul was a PUNISHMENT to make him SUFFER, it's why the gypsies did it, they wanted vengeance not to make him a "good man". Angel made the best out of a bad situation. The Angel soul canon and the Spike soul canon are not compatible, it's either one or the other, it can't be both.

I'm not sure this is accurate. A soul is not the same thing to all people and not all people react the same to having one. I read it a little like becoming a slayer; both Buffy and Faith were forced to become slayers and yet they reacted very differently to the same event.

Even so we have two vampires where 'getting the soul' wasn't even done in the same way, so it makes sense that it would be different and they would react behave differently, especially when we consider what came after.
Angel was 'punished' and was called a monster over and over by the vengeful gypsies, his sire, any human he interacted with, for about a hundred years so it kinda stuck. Spike 'won' his soul as a prize- something he wanted (without knowing the cost)- and within months was rewarded by being let back into Buffy's life and told that he faced the monster inside him and fought back.
That's not even going into Angel's 'curse clause' that reminds him never to get too happy.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I'm not sure this is accurate. A soul is not the same thing to all people and not all people react the same to having one. I read it a little like becoming a slayer; both Buffy and Faith were forced to become slayers and yet they reacted very differently to the same event.

Even so we have two vampires where 'getting the soul' wasn't even done in the same way, so it makes sense that it would be different and they would react behave differently, especially when we consider what came after.
Angel was 'punished' and was called a monster over and over by the vengeful gypsies, his sire, any human he interacted with, for about a hundred years so it kinda stuck. Spike 'won' his soul as a prize- something he wanted (without knowing the cost)- and within months was rewarded by being let back into Buffy's life and told that he faced the monster inside him and fought back.
That's not even going into Angel's 'curse clause' that reminds him never to get too happy.

Vampires aren't supposed to have souls though. It's what made Angel unique for so long, he was the only vampire in the world that had a soul. A soul is a terrible thing for a vampire because their whole way of living is not compatible with having a soul which is why the gypsies cursed Angelus with one, they wanted him to suffer. Angel made the best out of a bad situation, he didn't ask for it but he chose to try and do some good. Spike getting a soul is played as some romantic gesture but it drove him temporarily insane. It was an act of self harm in order to be "acceptable" to Buffy. Buffy didn't ask him to get it but she would've looked bad if she had.

The point is the gypsies chose a soul as a punishment for a reason. The writers then took what was a punishment for one vampire and tried to romanticise it for another. Either a soul is a punishment for a vampire or its not, it can't be both.

 

[Allchoseny]

I'm a Spuffy and Bangle shipper. Although in my old age I lean more toward Spuffy now. I honestly would have loved to see some reconciliation between the two. The Spuffy ship was pushed to the side for the bigger plot. I'm glad the comics gave them a chance.

 

[thetopher]

Vampires aren't supposed to have souls though.

Technically vampires aren't even supposed to exist; they are described as an unholy mix of demon and human; a demon fleeing this dimension infected a human with its blood/essence and so the demon-ness spread.
Even demons don't like them and humans fear them. The only thing vampires have going for them is their numerousness (?) and slight invulnerability.

It's what made Angel unique for so long, he was the only vampire in the world that had a soul. A soul is a terrible thing for a vampire because their whole way of living is not compatible with having a soul which is why the gypsies cursed Angelus with one, they wanted him to suffer. Angel made the best out of a bad situation, he didn't ask for it but he chose to try and do some good. Spike getting a soul is played as some romantic gesture but it drove him temporarily insane.

Both Angel and Spike have problems dealing with their soul, whether it was given as reward or punishment, but its hard to say that either man is worse off. They have had periods of loneliness or torture or hardship but they are both 'more complete', with more autonomy thanks to that soul. That's what the soul is; the seat humanity, morality, etc. (or the previous owner of the body- William or Liam)

They also have people who care about them; Angel has many friends, Buffy shows more tenderness to Spike-with-a-soul than his demon counterpart. Fred is a huge Spike-cheerleader and can't stop calling him a champion half the time. Even Angel gives the souled guy way more respect than 'Willie'; their not pals but there's a mutual respect thing going on.

I mean, did Angelus really have any friends? Know true love? Nope he was unpleasant to be around, Angel is- although prone to brooding- a lot more content most of the time. People like him more, there's less of a body count, etc.
And Spike wasn't happy as soon as he got dumped by Dru and then got himself chipped never mind with the soul, the soul was merely a desperate way of getting what he wanted, another chance with Buffy. I would've been more inclined to agree with your assessment if Buffy had insisted that he 'went and got a soul' but she didn't say that, ever, Spike chose because he was tormented and unhappy without it so what the hell? He had nothing to lose.

And that's if you consider Angel and Spike continuations of their former selves (which they do) but if you consider that they might in fact be a completely different individual 'brought back to life' then being alive is better than being dead, usually.

 

[BaskingINBangel]

Hmm..

I think Spuffy would have to be completely changed for me to ship it.

I would need Season 6 Spuffy to have never happened. None of it. No isolation of either character, no AR, and no using of Spike just to feel again. I'm totally against going back to a relationship, or person, that has been abusive or toxic to you, regardless of how much they change. So once season 6 happens, there is no redeeming the relationship for me at this point.

I would need to see Buffy interested in Spike when she is in a healthy frame of mind, not suffering from PTSD, depression, etc. To actually be interested in Spike on her own accord, and want to pursue something with him because she wants to and not because he won't leave her alone, or because she's trying to feel again.

I would need Spike to get back some of that edge that he had in the earlier seasons, because he bores the heck out of me in seasons 5-7. He goes from being one of my favorite characters in the earlier seasons to being one of my least favorite characters in the later seasons. And I simply can't ship a character that I don't like with a character that is one of my favorites.
I want him to have an identity outside of pursuing Buffy.
I don't want Spike to get a soul for Buffy, in fact, I don't really want Spike to get a soul in the first place. I don't really find it cute, sweet, romantic...or anything. He shouldn't have to change himself to be worthy of someone's love. I have a hard time with a vampire wanting a soul in the first place, I think I prefer them to be evil. That's probably me just being petty, but its how I feel nonetheless. It also takes away from the uniqueness of Angel having a soul. Not to mention, Buffy already fell in love with a vampire with a soul, having her fall in love with another souled vampire kind of takes away from both relationships for me.

 

[one eyed chicklet]

I would need to see Buffy interested in Spike when she is in a healthy frame of mind, not suffering from PTSD, depression, etc. To actually be interested in Spike on her own accord, and want to pursue something with him because she wants to and not because he won't leave her alone, or because she's trying to feel again.

I would need Spike to get back some of that edge that he had in the earlier seasons, because he bores the heck out of me in seasons 5-7. He goes from being one of my favorite characters in the earlier seasons to being one of my least favorite characters in the later seasons. And I simply can't ship a character that I don't like with a character that is one of my favorites.
I want him to have an identity outside of pursuing Buffy.
I don't want Spike to get a soul for Buffy, in fact, I don't really want Spike to get a soul in the first place. I don't really find it cute, sweet, romantic...or anything. He shouldn't have to change himself to be worthy of someone's love. I have a hard time with a vampire wanting a soul in the first place, I think I prefer them to be evil. That's probably me just being petty, but its how I feel nonetheless. It also takes away from the uniqueness of Angel having a soul. Not to mention, Buffy already fell in love with a vampire with a soul, having her fall in love with another souled vampire kind of takes away from both relationships for me.

I definitely agree that Buffy should have been in the right frame of mind, I think their relationship in general was one of the healthiest in the buffyverse in the comics.
Spike was basically having an identity crisis since season 4 and mixed with his inability to be a monster and his human 'romantic' self so I think it seemed natural that he would use her as his identity. He was less interesting though, I agree with you there.
You're last point is where it falls apart for me, vampires are sociopaths that instinctively prey on humans. 'You shouldn't have to change to be worthy of love' only works if you're not slaughtering people for fun and food. He should have to change to be worthy of love from a human. Being a selfish being that sees the species of your significant other as food and play things isn't good, he should have had to change to have a relationship with Buffy. If Buffy was another vampire I would probably side with you but she isn't. I also prefer vampires to be evil, but I didn't see it as Spike wanting a soul, to me it was more about either impressing Buffy or getting her back. Big romantic gestures seem to be his thing no matter how shallow and twisted it seems to everyone else, I could easily imagine that Spike was trying to be romantic. I understand your opinion about the fact he is the second vampire with a soul she has had a relationship and to some extent it feels like a repeat.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I want him to have an identity outside of pursuing Buffy.

I agree. It also makes me dislike Buffy a little in that she's treated as if the sun shines out of her backside because men are falling over themselves to be with her. Out of the 6 male scoobies, 4 of them want to be with her. That's 2/3 of the male cast. True Blood had this issue with Sookie.

I don't want Spike to get a soul for Buffy, in fact, I don't really want Spike to get a soul in the first place. I don't really find it cute, sweet, romantic...or anything. He shouldn't have to change himself to be worthy of someone's love.

I completely agree. Spike is essentially committing an act of self-harm yet it's treated as a romantic gesture despite the fact it is damaging for him. Angel made the best out of a bad situation, he was cursed with a soul as a punishment,

Buffy should either love Spike as he is or not love him at all. If the genders had been reversed then people would be crying that it's sexist for a woman to change who she is just to please a man. Spike had no issue being soulless before Spuffy and it's a problem that it became an issue.

It just shows that Spike was better off with Dru! They were together for over a century and loved and cared for each other on an equal level.

 

[FaithLehane16]

Having Buffy be more fair towards her friends, and to not have Spuffy dominate the show.

Also I could add on how Spuffy could improve in Season 5.

 

[BaskingINBangel]

You're last point is where it falls apart for me, vampires are sociopaths that instinctively prey on humans. 'You shouldn't have to change to be worthy of love' only works if you're not slaughtering people for fun and food. He should have to change to be worthy of love from a human. Being a selfish being that sees the species of your significant other as food and play things isn't good, he should have had to change to have a relationship with Buffy. If Buffy was another vampire I would probably side with you but she isn't. I also prefer vampires to be evil, but I didn't see it as Spike wanting a soul, to me it was more about either impressing Buffy or getting her back.

I understand your point, but I still feel like Buffy should be able to love Spike with or without him having a soul. Being worthy of being in a relationship with her is another story.

I completely agree. Spike is essentially committing an act of self-harm yet it's treated as a romantic gesture despite the fact it is damaging for him. Angel made the best out of a bad situation, he was cursed with a soul as a punishment,

Buffy should either love Spike as he is or not love him at all. If the genders had been reversed then people would be crying that it's sexist for a woman to change who she is just to please a man. Spike had no issue being soulless before Spuffy and it's a problem that it became an issue.

Yes, exactly how I see .

It just shows that Spike was better off with Dru! They were together for over a century and loved and cared for each other on an equal level.

I love Spike and Dru together! ❤

 

[one eyed chicklet]

I understand your point, but I still feel like Buffy should be able to love Spike with or without him having a soul. Being worthy of being in a relationship with her is another story.

Anyone who can love an immortal sociopath who eats people is beyond my understanding. I get it with Dru because they can both be murderous and sociopaths together. Ican't see how Buffy and Spike could ever work without him getting a soul. My brain just can't process how people can love something they know is evil.

 

[BaskingINBangel]

Anyone who can love an immortal sociopath who eats people is beyond my understanding. I get it with Dru because they can both be murderous and sociopaths together. Ican't see how Buffy and Spike could ever work without him getting a soul. My brain just can't process how people can love something they know is evil.

At this point though, Spike isn't actively killing and eating people anymore because he is chipped. Spike has been shown to have a pretty high level of humanity for a vampire. He protects Dawn. Has a nice little convo with Joyce (before he is chipped), tried to bring flowers when she dies, and speaks of her in a fond way. In his mind he loves Buffy, (although it's debatable as to whether this is equivalent to the type of love a souled being would feel) and he trys to comfort her on multiple occasions, and shows affection for her.

These are character traits in a human that are worthy and deserving of love imo. And Buffy should be able to recognize these traits, having a soul doesn't gurantee that someone has those traits. This is why I have a problem with him going to get a soul just to be worthy of her love.

I think we both agree that this doesn't mean that he is worthy of being in a relationship with Buffy.

And I think this is where my issues with Spike are in the later seasons. For me, he has too much humanity for a vampire.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Anyone who can love an immortal sociopath who eats people is beyond my understanding. I get it with Dru because they can both be murderous and sociopaths together. Ican't see how Buffy and Spike could ever work without him getting a soul. My brain just can't process how people can love something they know is evil.

It's the principle of the matter. Nobody is saying that Buffy should love Spike soulless, just that if Spuffy was going to happen then Buffy should love Spike as he is. Spike shouldn't have to commit what is essentially an act of self-harm in order to be "acceptable" to her. Either Buffy should love him soulless or not at all.

And I think this is where my issues with Spike are in the later seasons. For me, he has too much humanity for a vampire.

I agree and disagree. The writers were trying to tell us he had less humanity than we saw (Show don't tell) which creates the issue. However the idea that vampires aren't some mindless monsters for Buffy to kill is an interesting one that is never really addressed. I would've loved for them to show the whole vampires vs slayers as a morally grey kind of thing. I think it's widely accepted by both slayers and vampires that when they cross paths, only one of them is going to walk away, it's nothing personal, it's just how things work (which also explains Spike's lack of guilt over Nikki Wood, it's the "natural" order of things). Buffy would've broken that mold with Bangel, and again with not killing a chipped Spike. Clem was a demon, so was within Buffy's remit as slayer, yet he was a perfectly nice individual that Buffy didn't kill. The closest we got was with Buffy and Holden, they knew one of them was going to kill the other but they still had a civil chat before they fought. On Angel, the vampires at W&H have jobs like normal people and don't drink human blood.

Spike and Dru demonstrate human behaviour towards each other throughout season 2 (so whilst they might be "evil" by nature, they still care about and love each other as seen when they are injured or sick. I like how a wheelchair Spike goes into protective mode and kind of squares up to the judge when it looks like the judge is about to start on Dru). Buffy and co parrot "you can't love without a soul" as if it's a fact yet we've seen examples of vampire couples demonstrating love. It might not be a "souled" standard of love but it is real to them. Staying together quite monogamously for over a century (Spike&Dru, James&Elisabeth) isn't a fleeting whim, it's commitment.

I would've liked to see Buffy struggle with the morality of being a slayer. She's being told to kill creatures that are sentient.

 

[Living Dead Boy]

My thing is this. I started my Buffy career with Spuffy front and center, so I'll always be a bit biased towards prefering their relationship over Bangel's, but nooot because I think they're good for each other. I find Sarah and James' chemistry to be next level amazing, and their performances elevate their problematic relationship. They're really, definitely, without a shadow of a doubt-ly not made for each other, but like all relationships, valuable lessons are there to learn from. Sometimes we get into relationships that aren't good for us because there's a void missing, so I appreciate the fact that they were willing to show Buffy in a not so perfect light.

Now about "Seeing Red". I usually try to summarize the AR by saying that what Spike did was incomprehensible, morally wrong, and sick, but he's still a soulless creature, so what did we expect right? But yet he's done things that most soulless vampires would never do, like love. Angelus showered himself to death when he felt a connection with Buffy, yet Spike was capable of loving Dru selfishly for centuries. I used to chalk it up to their human personalities for the way they act without a soul. Angel was a womanizing, loud mouth drunk, whereas Spike was a quiet, yet naive hopeless romantic. But honestly speaking, the writers were never specifically clear about what constitutes a "soul" in the first place, so I chalk up this confusion to the writers not being consistent with the lore.

Now fast forward to season 7. Spike is souled and is trying to make amends. Now I really didn't mind the fact that he was trying to make things right. I also didn't have an issue with Buffy coming to forgive Spike, since it's being consistent with Buffy's view that a vampire with a soul and a vampire without a soul are two different entities, in the same way she did with Angel and Angelus. I just wish that it wasn't rushed too soon. We definitely should've had the focus squarely on Buffy's development after all the hell she's been through during season 6, particularly the AR. It was mentioned here and there, but from then on, it actually did become the Spike show. We needed to see how Buffy dealt with the aftermath of being sexually assaulted, and how that affected her psyche. I wanted all of the focus to be on Buffy's journey, not her propping up Spike so he could be the hero of the piece. Spike should've also had his own separate journey, although one that didn't overshadow Buffy's. I believe the two taught each other a lot about their inner demons, but Spuffy's journey should've been about them coming to terms with what happened, then taking those lessons and moving on to become better people. But Spike's the most popular character of the entire verse, arguably, so the writers made his journey top priority, which was the wrong thing to do, IMO.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

@genghiskhan What I mean is that Spike shouldn't have to change a part of himself that he had no issue with before (being soulless) just so that Buffy finds him "acceptable" and he is then rewarded with her love for doing so. Put it this way:

A woman who is happy with her weight shouldn't then have to lose weight via dieting just so that the object of her affection finds her "acceptable" to be with. To reward that notion that because a woman loses weight (even if it makes her miserable for a while), she deserves to be with the man she's in love with is an extremely damaging one.

I've reversed the genders in the example deliberately because it always seems like it's a case of "if the shoe was on the other foot". Spike gaining a soul is played as a romantic gesture despite the fact not only was he physically injured during the attempt but was also left temporarily insane, not to mention him trying to claw out "the spark" because "all it does is burn". However, if it had been a female character doing all that to earn a man's love then people would be up in arms about how sexist and misogynistic it is to have a female character change herself just be considered "acceptable" by a male character. Why should it be considered okay for a male character to do that and not a female one?

 

[spikenbuffy]

I love the Spuffy's story as it is (except some moments... but I can't pretend to expect that Buffy with a soulless vampire would be a fairytail or a sweet story).

But I would want to not have the retcon that is there in the iconic episode "Fool For Love" even if I love Spuffy, I've always asked myself questions when I saw the flashback scene with Dru.
Anyway, I prefer growing affection rather than love at first sight. I personally don't need Spike to be in love with Buffy in S2 to love Spuffy. I personally think that Spuffy started in S4, absolutely not in S2 when Spike had totally his eyes on Dru.
Mostly I usually hate retcons and even in ship couples that I love, I hate that it often happens in some shows that I love such as in TVD : Delena, the retcon that they meet for the first time before Elena's parents died which is easy to see that it doesn't make sense, even if I love Delena, I hate that sort of retcon and I would love that scene to not exist.

And I also would want that Spuffy doesn't take all the story in BTVS as I love Willow, Giles and most characters/relationships.